• 05-20-2011, 09:05 AM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    Maybe you might had a bad cable. Cable failure seem to be greater with HDMI than other type of cables.

    When you think of it, HDMI cables are more sophisticated than any other cable, maybe that is why they seem to fail more often.
  • 05-20-2011, 07:08 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Terry, if it is in my head at least something is there which is more than I can say for you. It would be nice if any one else on this thread had any real world experience on this issue such as myself, instead of parroting the internet as you do. All of your bully tactics, slander, hot air, BS and disrespect doesn't change anything.
  • 05-21-2011, 04:59 PM
    GMichael
    Great! Now I'm missing my last HD.
    Nice ride LDB. That 1500 looks fat.
  • 05-22-2011, 01:40 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    Terry, if it is in my head at least something is there which is more than I can say for you. It would be nice if any one else on this thread had any real world experience on this issue such as myself, instead of parroting the internet as you do. All of your bully tactics, slander, hot air, BS and disrespect doesn't change anything.

    Peahead, you are caught in a web of your own Bull crap. Perhaps you need a time out in a corner. Unfortunately for us, you will use the time to think up another not technically possible lie to convince yourself that you are not telling a lie.

    Some of us know better NOT to take your senseless BS as fact. Lean about how HDMI works, it will keep your ass out of a crack.
  • 05-22-2011, 06:47 PM
    IBSTORMIN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    According to PC magazine testing, for the vast majority of HDTV owners, a $5 HDMI cable will provide the same performance as a $100 one.

    They tested several different HDMI cables and found absolutely no effective difference between a no-name $3 HDMI cable you can order from Amazon.com and a $120 Monster cable you buy at a brick-and-mortar electronics store.

    Comparing cheap crap to expensive crap, of course it is going to sound the same. There are alot of better cables, priced less than Monster. Monster is the Bose of cables. Marketing is all they do well.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Those who think digital is only off or on are mistaken.

    Mr P, didn't you post some good reading saying servers are a better way to go than a conventional CD? Part of the reason was the signal that goes down the digital cable has to be re-clocked at the other end and the quality of the digital cable and the accuracy of the clock make a big difference in sound quality? That would apply here also, would it not?
  • 05-22-2011, 07:47 PM
    Mr Peabody
    HDMI uses an encoding method TMDS which is supposed to minimize or decrease the possibility of errors but decrease is not eliminating. TMDS sends an inverse signal which the difference of the two signals are compared when received. Any time something has to compensate there's always a chance of error. I don't see why any one would pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a TV and source without at least doing a comparison of cables for themselves. It's foolish especially when almost every retailer allows a 30 day return and if your lucky enough to have a high end shop they should have loaners on hand to try.
  • 05-22-2011, 07:55 PM
    IBSTORMIN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    TMDS sends an inverse signal which the difference of the two signals are compared when received. Any time something has to compensate there's always a chance of error.

    Like a truly balanced signal works to reduce distortion over a standard RCA. Better but not perfect? Also, if the cable is distorting the signal, it it going to distort both signals, I would think.
  • 05-23-2011, 02:18 AM
    Jack in Wilmington
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    HDMI uses an encoding method TMDS which is supposed to minimize or decrease the possibility of errors but decrease is not eliminating. TMDS sends an inverse signal which the difference of the two signals are compared when received. Any time something has to compensate there's always a chance of error. I don't see why any one would pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a TV and source without at least doing a comparison of cables for themselves. It's foolish especially when almost every retailer allows a 30 day return and if your lucky enough to have a high end shop they should have loaners on hand to try.

    You're right Mr. P. My dealer has cables you can take home and test out just like any other piece of gear. When my DAC comes in he wants me to try out a Tributaries and a Transparent toslink cable to see which I like better.
  • 05-23-2011, 06:40 PM
    IBSTORMIN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington View Post
    When my DAC comes in he wants me to try out a Tributaries and a Transparent toslink cable to see which I like better.

    If you can hook it up with a digital cable instead of optical I would highly recommend it. You will lose some sound quality in the conversion to optical and back again, although some will not notice a difference.
  • 05-23-2011, 06:56 PM
    IBSTORMIN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    Unfortunately, HDMI is a badly designed connector. Even the best made cables cannot make up for a flawed design. I will agree that the cable brand is irrelevant to an extent.

    HDMI was not designed with sound quality in mind, it was made to be convenient for the average consumer. It has numerous very thin wires in a small cable attached to a small connector, so it bends easy and is not heavy. This is why, as someone else said, they fail alot. Nobody can make great improvements to a poor design which is limited, like you said, by the small size of it's connector. When I first saw it I couldn't believe we were going to be sending high quality sound AND video through such a small cable. What were they thinking?!!
  • 05-24-2011, 03:18 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by IBSTORMIN View Post
    HDMI was not designed with sound quality in mind, it was made to be convenient for the average consumer. It has numerous very thin wires in a small cable attached to a small connector, so it bends easy and is not heavy. This is why, as someone else said, they fail alot. Nobody can make great improvements to a poor design which is limited, like you said, by the small size of it's connector. When I first saw it I couldn't believe we were going to be sending high quality sound AND video through such a small cable. What were they thinking?!!

    Experts like Wooch or Sir Terrence would likely agree that HDMI wasn't designed to convey analog signals or even a continuous bit streams like a S/PDIF signal; (they'll correct me if I'm wrong). It was designed, (maybe not optimally), to carry structured data. In this respect it is like USB or CAT 5e or 6 cable.

    In case of data, the receiving systems is properly supposed to detect transmission failures and compensate in some way, e.g. request that the data be resent. Thus data cables either work or they don't.
  • 05-24-2011, 05:07 AM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Experts like Wooch or Sir Terrence would likely agree that HDMI wasn't designed to convey analog signals or even a continuous bit streams like a S/PDIF signal; (they'll correct me if I'm wrong). It was designed, (maybe not optimally), to carry structured data. In this respect it is like USB or CAT 5e or 6 cable.

    In case of data, the receiving systems is properly supposed to detect transmission failures and compensate in some way, e.g. request that the data be resent. Thus data cables either work or they don't.

    It has error correction code that makes the data redundant so as to free the error. This code is an industry standard.
  • 05-24-2011, 11:55 AM
    Smokey
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by IBSTORMIN View Post
    Comparing cheap crap to expensive crap, of course it is going to sound the same. There are alot of better cables, priced less than Monster.

    If you go to local retail stores like Bestbuy, Walmart or Radioshack, inflated priced cables is all the consumer is going to see. On their web sites, they also carry much cheaper HDMI, USB or VGA cables. But they never carry them in their stores. What they have in stores are inflated cables like Monster or Rocketfish.
  • 05-24-2011, 12:06 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    HDMI uses an encoding method TMDS which is supposed to minimize or decrease the possibility of errors but decrease is not eliminating. TMDS sends an inverse signal which the difference of the two signals are compared when received. Any time something has to compensate there's always a chance of error. I don't see why any one would pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a TV and source without at least doing a comparison of cables for themselves. It's foolish especially when almost every retailer allows a 30 day return and if your lucky enough to have a high end shop they should have loaners on hand to try.

    Transition Minimized Differential Signaling does not do what you describe at all. To quote Wikipedia:

    Transition Minimized Differential Signaling (TMDS) on HDMI carries video, audio and auxiliary data via one of three modes, called the Video Data Period, the Data Island Period and the Control Period.[75] During the Video Data Period, the pixels of an active video line are transmitted.[75] During the Data Island period (which occurs during the horizontal and vertical blanking intervals), audio and auxiliary data are transmitted within a series of packets.[75] The Control Period occurs between Video and Data Island periods.[75]
    Both HDMI and DVI use TMDS to send 10-bit characters that are encoded using 8b/10b encoding for the Video Data Period and 2b/10b encoding for the Control Period. HDMI adds the ability to send audio and auxiliary data using 4b/10b encoding for the Data Island Period.[75] Each Data Island Period is 32 pixels in size and contains a 32-bit Packet Header, which includes 8 bits of BCH ECC parity data for error correction and describes the contents of the packet.[76] Each Packet contains four subpackets, and each subpacket is 64 bits in size, including 8 bits of BCH ECC parity data, allowing for each Packet to carry up to 224 bits of audio data.[77] Each Data Island Period can contain up to 18 Packets.[78] Seven of the 15 Packet types described in the HDMI 1.3a specifications deal with audio data, while the other 8 types deal with auxiliary data.[76] Among these are the General Control Packet and the Gamut Metadata Packet. The General Control Packet carries information on AVMUTE (which mutes the audio during changes that may cause audio noise) and Color Depth (which sends the bit depth of the current video stream and is required for Deep Color).[79][80] The Gamut Metadata Packet carries information on the color space being used for the current video stream and is required for xvYCC.


    There is no error correction with HDMI. Since the data travels in packets, it is not subject to errors like bit streamed data is. There is TERC4 coding used at source , which is error reduction coding , intended to reduce the likelihood of errors , but this is not error correction per se. There are some ECC codes in the Data but as there is no facility for re-transmission these are merely a flag for bad data and are not used for correction as such.

    I hate it when people talk about things they know nothing about. Peahead does not know dog poop about HDMI, and it is pretty obvious.
  • 05-24-2011, 01:38 PM
    frenchmon
    delete
  • 05-24-2011, 01:42 PM
    frenchmon
    delete
  • 05-24-2011, 05:28 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Any one can change Wikipedia. It's not the reference source for information on any subject. I got my information from the website "How Stuff Works" Terry, just because you post a different website doesn't illustrate your knowledge of anything except you can pick a different link from a Google search so don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. Obviously, this system isn't fool proof or it would hold up over longer runs.
  • 05-25-2011, 07:11 AM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    Any one can change Wikipedia. It's not the reference source for information on any subject. I got my information from the website "How Stuff Works" Terry, just because you post a different website doesn't illustrate your knowledge of anything except you can pick a different link from a Google search so don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. Obviously, this system isn't fool proof or it would hold up over longer runs.

    Peabrain, nobody is patting themselves, I am correcting you. I used Wikipedia because it happens to be correct in this case, and I didn't have time to write out a full explanation. If you got your information from "How stuff works", then you picked a poor source. TMDS is not designed for error correction, but error prevention. TERC4 coding is not an error correction encoding, it prevents errors from occurring in the first place. If the signals does have an error, either the handshake will fail, or the signal will lose lock and go out of sync. If there was error correction in TDMS, then there would be no such thing as lip sync issues, and no need of lip sync compensation found in high end processors.

    How stuff works uses simplified explanations for peaheads like you that do not have the technical expertise to understand a more complex description of the process. I read the explanation on How stuff works, and nowhere in the explanation does it mention error correction. Their explanation says the encoding step helps PROTECT the signal quality as it travels down the cable. Protection is not correction, it is prevention in the first place.

    You are such an egghead, that you can not even comprehend a simplified explanation of the process.
  • 05-25-2011, 04:00 PM
    Mr Peabody
    From "How Stuff Works"

    One of the common misperceptions about HDMI is that the digital signal is innately superior to an analog signal. In some people's minds, the lack of analog-to-digital conversion means that the signal is in a pure, undamaged state when it reaches the HDTV set. It's easy to imagine a high-definition, digital signal traveling straight from an HD-DVD player to an HDTV. But signal transmission via HDTV does require an encoding step.

    HDMI uses transition minimized differential signaling (TMDS) to move information from one place to another. TMDS is a way of encoding the signal to protect it from degrading as it travels down the length of the cable. Here's what happens:

    The sending device, such as an HD-DVD player, encodes the signal to reduce the number of transitions between one (on) and zero (off). Think of each transition as a sharp drop-off -- as the signal travels, this drop-off can begin to wear away, degrading the signal. The encoding step helps protect signal quality by reducing the number of chances for the signal to degrade.
    One of the cables in the twisted pair carries the signal itself. The other carries an inverse copy of the signal.
    The receiving device, such as an HDTV, decodes the signal. It measures the differential, or the difference between the signal and its inverse. It uses this information to compensate for any loss of signal along the way.

    Compensate or correction, you base your whole rant on a synonym. Not my fault if the website description doesn't meet your standard. Interesting how you strut because you found a broader definition but you've yet to express any real world experience which is something that always lacks in your posts. Just like a poser.
  • 05-25-2011, 05:06 PM
    Smokey
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    From "How Stuff Works"

    One of the cables in the twisted pair carries the signal itself. The other carries an inverse copy of the signal.
    The receiving device, such as an HDTV, decodes the signal. It measures the differential, or the difference between the signal and its inverse. It uses this information to compensate for any loss of signal along the way.

    Is article author talking about HDMI cables or twisted pair. Looks like there is a mixup here.
  • 05-25-2011, 06:57 PM
    IBSTORMIN
    I remember when CD's first came out, everyone, salesmen especially but also "Experts" said that because it was digital, and it was either on or off, you should pick your player based on features, because they all sound the same. We found out that was not true. We found out even transports can sound different with the same DAC. This is sounding like the same argument all over again for the newest technology out there. We have to form our own opinion, not be led by the "experts".
  • 05-26-2011, 04:09 AM
    frenchmon
    Yeah...I've been doing a little reading about the standard and am not convinced that HDMI cable is different. I work in IT so I understand the jargon. But the proof is in the seeing and hearing...I've ask Peabody if I could bring over a cheap HDMI and compair it to his more expensive cable but have yet to hear back from him. I have also reached out to my audio dealer to see if he has any loner HDMI cables so I can compare with my cheaper cables as well and am waiting for a reply. When I read the technical specs, it all leads me to say there is no difference, but I want to still have the shoot out.
  • 05-26-2011, 04:33 AM
    Mr Peabody
    Frenchmon, you are welcome to bring a cable over. Whatever the out come you will know but it wouldn't change anyone's mind here nor would it change my actual experience. The problem I had is well documented on this forum in the AV8003 thread long before this thread ever started.
  • 05-26-2011, 04:39 AM
    Mr Peabody
    The point in trying different HDMI, if I had not heard the AV8003 before I bought it the first cable would have me experiencing less than optimum performance because I would not have known any different. I knew the AV8003 in my home was less stellar than what I had heard in the store. The HDMI was not the first attempt to fix the issue, in fact, it was the last of several. No matter what the difference in HDMI cables is from, build quality or whatever, that still is a difference.
  • 05-26-2011, 12:54 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post

    Compensate or correction, you base your whole rant on a synonym. Not my fault if the website description doesn't meet your standard. Interesting how you strut because you found a broader definition but you've yet to express any real world experience which is something that always lacks in your posts. Just like a poser.

    I didn't base my rant on a synonym, I based it on the fact that you don't know what you are talking about. There is a difference.

    Since compensation is quite different than correction, it is important to get it right. You had it wrong, and that is something you need to face instead of trying to save face. TERC4 prevents the error from occurring, correction fixes the error after it has occurred. If you cannot understand the difference, you have a problem.

    When somebody asks me my real world experience, I will share it with them. Nobody asked me, so I didn't share any. Since I understand that build quality, using shorter lengths(or longer lengths with signal amps), using a cable with the proper rating for what I am using it on are the only things you need to know, their ain't much to talk about with HDMI cable. I also understand there is nothing in the cable that would negatively effect what passes through it, so sonic characteristics play no role in which cable I will choose.

    The definition I chose is not only more broad, but more precise. Unlike yourself(who talks about his supposed real world experience however impossible it is) I go to workshops and conferences on AV technology. I could have easily wrote out what Wikipedia stated(different wording), but time did not allow that.

    The way HDMI works prevents one cable from sounding different or better than another. TERC4 prevents the signal from being degraded within the cable, so the only way something will sound bad is if it is being overloaded, or it is not a true HDMI certified cable. The only thing that distinguishes one cable from another, is the quality of its construction, and its speed rating. That is it. One does not offer a better sonic picture than another, it either follows HDMI spec's and works, or it does not follow spec's and it does not work or overloads. The same goes for the video that passes through it.

    I told you this before when you first brought this issue up. I even posted links that supported what I stated. Apparently your memory is so bad you forgot these details.