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  1. #26
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    Having myself been banned from Cable Asylum and the last person on this planet who would ever kiss Jon's ass, I have to say again that I think that those of you who believe that Jon and Rod are part of some cable industry conspiracy are just as wacked as Jon is.

    It's really quite simple. Jon is a megalomaniac and Rod ain't got no balls. That's it. There is no sanctuary. There is no conspiracy.

    And if anyone cares to reply to this post, don't expect a response any time soon. This place is still a slug. Granted, I'm only at 28.8, but this place is inexcusable.

    I've found diyAudio.com to be the best game in town. It's what Rod once claimed was his vision for Audio Asylum. While it's actively moderated, the moderators are more than fair and they don't discriminate based on their own political dogma or what your name happens to be (i.e. John Curl).

    se

  2. #27
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Eddy
    And if anyone cares to reply to this post, don't expect a response any time soon. This place is still a slug. Granted, I'm only at 28.8, but this place is inexcusable.
    As I said the last time the wicked witch of the North flitted in, sprayed his scent, and flew off saying he wouldn't be back, no loss as far as I'm concerned.

    He's got 28.8 and calls this place a slug? What a laugh! Wadya expect from someone who's got two first names?

  3. #28
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    Question I do not know!

    It is good to hear that most moderators do not have a problem being a debater. As long as they keep the two functions separated there should not be a problem. However when they use the power as the moderator to their advantage this becomes underhanded and unacceptable. If this is the exemption we will have to live with it but if it gets out of hand something should be down. Hopefully we will not have to deal with the latter.

    Endless flame wars and name calling achieves nothing for anyone involved with this site. Well maybe some humor at the expense of the debaters. Limiting cable discussions to positive experiences is not debating or discussing an issue, this is a forum for discussions. If I am allowed to comment on my positive experiences I will also comment on my negative experiences, as well as when I note no differences. Anyone that makes blanket statements tend to raise red flags, also anyone that keep pushing one manufactureís name and product is also suspect.

    As I have noted and stated that I have found some differences with interconnects, some better some worse and at other times no differences between similar products. As well, I attempt to explain testing procedures that where used. Using the tape out on my integrated amplifier has a larger affect than the cables do. I suspect that there is an operational amplifier in this circuit and I use the word suspect as I have never opened it and checked.

    Now, if I am to explain why these differences exist, we will need a front end loader because a shovel will be tool small to clean up all the bs. Having a grade 9 electricity course that I took 30 years ago does not make me qualified to offer an explanation. I have read some information on this topic, some of it makes sense at times, most of it is above my level of understanding and some of it sounds like bs. At my limited level of knowledge on this topic I do not appreciate reading garbage, it wastes my time!

    I also understand that many people will not hear the differences that I do, there can be many reasons for this. First off they might not hear the differences, do not care about the differences or are unwilling to pay for the differences. I have never considered myself to have golden ears, if I did some thief would steal them. I do believe that I hear the differences, as other audio nuts like me tend to hear similar differences and this is a very vague statement. I wish I didnít hear the differences as small as they an be at times or learn not to chase audio nirvana.

    Have to agree with you, how can 3 feet of shielded power cord affect the sound of any audio component. I can understand shielded interconnects with there low level signals, but not power cords. There is 25 feet of standard electrical cable between the circuit breaker panel and the plug my stereo is plugged into. In fact, I only tried this when I noticed my MGE UPS used shielded SJT 14/3 power cord. Did not notice any change in sound using a shielded power cord on my CD player. However, using different power cords on my integrated amplifier did show some differences but this may not all be the result of the shield. Mentioned this to my friend and again he had some choice words to explain what I told him, come on over and see for yourself. We preformed a simple test, I just plugged in three different power cords into the integrated amplifier, he could not see what cord. The stock cord was 16/3 SJT, the UPS power cord shielded SJT 14/3 and one from an audio store 12/3. He guessed all three cords by the sound and even commented that he thought the stock cord know sounded substandard, yet the week earlier he thought it sounded fine. The most distinct difference that was noted that when there was no music being played the background sounded darker (blacker) never understood this statement previously. Playing music seamed to have the affect of being faster and more accurate, the difference between the MGE shielded power cord and the exotic audio store cable was small. These differences could be the result of the heavier gauge wires used in each power cord or a combination of the heavier gauge and better shielding. Should there be a difference, not with my limited knowledge always believed wire was wire, is it not. You want an explanation you better get a big shovel, a powered shovel would work the best

    Then the price subject was discussed, his reply was that he could justify the cost increase between the stock cable and the MGE shielded power cord. However, he could not justify the tenfold increase for the exotic audio power cord, although it was the best, the price did not justify the improvement. So now again we have noted differences with the integrated amplifier and no differences with the CD player. Positive and negative results, will they work for you. My answer there is maybe, will it be better or worse maybe, will it work with all my components it didnít for me. Is it worth the money, I have always stated fancy audio cables are grossly overpriced. Can I justify the price of the MGE power cord, yep no problem there finding them is the biggest job. And, as always if you do not hear a difference do not spend your money, this applies to spending ten a hundred or a thousand dollars. I still will recommend purchasing Radio Shack interconnect over what is supplied with stock equipment, reliability is an issue with me. Cables can make a small difference not always for the better but a difference, is it worth the price not for what they are asking for the fancy stuff. Chop the price by a factor of five or tens times and I will say maybe. I do not know why, it should not be, how is this possible. You want a explanation you will have to tell me first how big is the powered shovel you plan to use, because it will be bs and only bs. Has anyone else noted changes be they better, worse or none at all. Gee, another long winded reply, damn need some days off or a change in location. Snowing ever day or two is becoming a pain in the ass and it is cold to boot.

    Have A Great Day and enjoy the music, life is to short.

    Happy Ears

  4. #29
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    It seems to me that I always have to give the same advice again and again over time because maybe some people didn't read it the times before. IF you want the PERFECT power cable, (I don't recommend diy projects for power cables so have a qualified tech or electrician do it) make it out of the same wire your house is wired with, Romex for most homes, BX for some. It is also among the cheapest material to obtain. Now if you are truely crazy and are going to tell me that you think the outlet is affecting your sound system, have the same electrician hard wire it instead of using a plug. You could get a 20 amp wall switch, 60 or even a 100 amp safety switch and only the hot leg is switched. The neutral is either wire nutted or screwed to a terminal block. Now if you can relocate your equipment so that it is 3 or 4 feet closer upstream to your circuit breaker panel than you are now, you will have ELIMINATED the power cord completely compared to what you have now. Why don't cable manufacturers make their audiophile cables out of Romex? Because everybody knows exactly what it is and you can't charge an arm and a leg for it.

  5. #30
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    Oops, sorry about that guys wrong post, must be a scientist.

    Need an Electrician to hook up detachable power cords? Should we not call the dealership when we have a flat tire and only use licensed mechanics to install our spare, this is also a safety issue. Buy my electrical outlets at Home Depot, but I guess I could save some money by checking Walmart. Usually very busy store, got to give them credit on there advertising and success.

    Have A Great Day

  6. #31
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    I have to put in a disclaimer. I have no control over what you or anyone else does. I wouldn't want anyone to ever be able to say I told him to do something and it resulted in an injury or worse because they weren't qualified to do it.

    However, if you get done what I told you, it will technically outperform any cable you can buy, which is to say it won't make a hill of beans difference to what you already have now IMO. Of course, it's your money so I can't stop you from throwing it away either. OTOH, maybe some poor shnook who was thinking about taking your advice and going out to buy one will give it a second thought and realize just how stupid it really is.

  7. #32
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    You guys crack me up. So this nonsense thread is in response to the locking of another nonsense thread? Wow.

    Keep up the great work guys.

    jc
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Apparantly the format isn't the only thing that has changed here In the past, this has been a very free and open place to discuss just about anything people who post care to including those subjects not related to cables. Even flame wars including anglo saxonisms were tolerated to a degree and allowed to burn themselves out. It was only a couple of years ago that anyone even had to register to post here. Many of the people who post here post at other audio related sites including Cable Asylum. That goes for Jon Risch as well. He used to post here frequently. I don't know if he just tired of this place, has been too busy with being moderator of Cable Asylum, or felt his views were too discredited to show his face very often but he apparantly still makes a rare appearance here. Because of the number of people who do post there or those who left there and come here as a real refuge to a place of free expression, there is still a lot of interest about what goes on there, although not by me. I was only there for a very brief time several years ago, left in disgust quickly and never established any attachment or interest in it.

    Well now it seems that by locking a thread and telling people who post here that discussion of that site and their moderator is off limits, censorship has arrived here and their actions cannot be criticized without meeting the approval of our own new censor in chief. Is it the approaching Thanksgiving holiday or has this new ominous element put a chill in what was ordinarily a very active message board.

    If it continues and it becomes apparant that we must watch our words because we have our own new Communist Gestapo censor to deal with, I am outta here. And that means all the boards. No more advice or counseling to newbies about speakers, amplifiers, phonograph cartridges or recordings. That would make this not the kind of place I would frequent. And unlike some others, if I leave, I for one am NEVER coming back under this moniker or any other.
    It's too bad that I didn't see this thread before I went on my holiday vacation, or I would have answered it quickly before it started. Let me make a few points and challenge your accusations.

    Let me first ask why the first hint of any type of moderation on this site should bring about cries of censorship, communism or conspiracy? What used to be a VERY active community (here on AudioReview) has become home to numerous trolls and flamebait for the past couple of years because there had been almost no moderating. The first attempt in two years to clean up the discussions and try to get this forum back to the "audio-related" subjects that made it so great in the first place draws this type of harsh criticism? I'm a little disappointed.

    If everyone kept to giving "advice or counseling to newbies about speakers, amplifiers, phonograph cartridges or recordings", there would be no need for moderating at all. Unfortunately, we all know that is not realistic, and that people will push the limits of appropriate discussion in a PRIVATE forum such as ours. Yes, it's true, we will be drawing the lines a little more as to what is acceptable behavior in our forums, as we used to do back when Norbert was running things. We will not censor anyone, but we will delete or lock inappropriate threads and posts that we do find cross the line. All it takes is a little common sense and respect - something that should have been used anyway. It should go without saying, but I guess if you don't say it, people will not use it.

    About the thread that was locked - I locked it because it had gone on long enough, and people were complaining about it. Yes, other members were complaining about it, so I chose to lock it. If you want to debate a topic, that's fine. But we would rather people not go to great lengths to try and discredit another site, or other people here on our site. When other members begin complaining, it's obvious that the members have decided it's gone on long enough. We allowed it to take place, but it kept degrading. We would like to increase the quality level around here, and flaming will be a little less tolerated. I personally don't know enough about how Cable Asylum is run, but I don't think it's right for us to allow an ongoing flame session on their policies - do you? If you don't like their site, don't use it. But why use up our forum resources to complain about their policies or ethics? It won't solve anything will it?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris
    What used to be a VERY active community (here on AudioReview) has become home to numerous trolls and flamebait for the past couple of years because there had been almost no moderating. The first attempt in two years to clean up the discussions and try to get this forum back to the "audio-related" subjects that made it so great in the first place draws this type of harsh criticism? I'm a little disappointed.
    Yes, it's true, we will be drawing the lines a little more as to what is acceptable behavior in our forums, as we used to do back when Norbert was running things. We will not censor anyone, but we will delete or lock inappropriate threads and posts that we do find cross the line. All it takes is a little common sense and respect - something that should have been used anyway. It should go without saying, but I guess if you don't say it, people will not use it.

    About the thread that was locked - I locked it because it had gone on long enough, and people were complaining about it. Yes, other members were complaining about it, so I chose to lock it. If you want to debate a topic, that's fine. But we would rather people not go to great lengths to try and discredit another site, or other people here on our site. When other members begin complaining, it's obvious that the members have decided it's gone on long enough. We allowed it to take place, but it kept degrading. We would like to increase the quality level around here, and flaming will be a little less tolerated. I personally don't know enough about how Cable Asylum is run, but I don't think it's right for us to allow an ongoing flame session on their policies - do you? If you don't like their site, don't use it. But why use up our forum resources to complain about their policies or ethics? It won't solve anything will it?
    Hmmm...I do see the huge number of problems in general, but not in cables....

    You said, on the thread you locked out...."I feel it has gone on long enough"...not "others were complaining".. That is something else entirely..now...is there a threshold of complaints, or is it moderator's choice?? if 12 people are active and two others complain, does it get shut down?? If John Curl complains, does he carry more weight? Did more complain about your lockout than the thread itself?

    Start of thread: 11-20-2003 8:55 PM
    Shutdown: 11-24-2003 7:52 PM.

    Four days doesn't seem long..

    Never having seen moderation here, I think it would be nice to know the new rules in advance.

    Yes, it is a private website, and can be run anyway the owners wish..I will abide with the owners, but would certainly like to see freedom to speak, within socially accepted norms..

    I personally think you acted too hastily...but do not envy you your choices.

    Cheers, John

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris
    Let me first ask why the first hint of any type of moderation on this site should bring about cries of censorship, communism or conspiracy? What used to be a VERY active community (here on AudioReview) has become home to numerous trolls and flamebait for the past couple of years because there had been almost no moderating. .

    Yes, it's true, we will be drawing the lines a little more as to what is acceptable behavior in our forums, as we used to do back when Norbert was running things. We will not censor anyone, but we will delete or lock inappropriate threads and posts that we do find cross the line.

    About the thread that was locked - I locked it because it had gone on long enough, and people were complaining about it. Yes, other members were complaining about it, so I chose to lock it. If you want to debate a topic, that's fine. But we would rather people not go to great lengths to try and discredit another site, or other people here on our site.

    We would like to increase the quality level around here, and flaming will be a little less tolerated. I personally don't know enough about how Cable Asylum is run, but I don't think it's right for us to allow an ongoing flame session on their policies - do you?

    But why use up our forum resources to complain about their policies or ethics? It won't solve anything will it?
    The first thing to understand as I pointed out is that there are a lot of people who post at both sites, and more than a few like me who once posted at the other site and gave it up because the censorship there was not merely restrictive but so unfairly biased that it made it obvious that the site was used to promulgate a particular point of view at least IMO was for the purpose of commercial exploitation of the participants. Therefore some of us, me for one, is very alert and sensitive to any indication that this site is headed in the same direction.

    This is still a very active community and when trolls do visit here, one or more of the regular members identifies him/her as a troll and they are quickly dispatched. Some of us think Burce was a very good moderator. Now who's flame throwing?

    I for one will be watching to see exactly where and how the lines are drawn and I will make my decision of whether or not to continue to participate based on it.

    People who make public pronouncements, especially public personna who have credentials, published papers, technical websites, and moderate a well known board will be open to public comment and scrutiny and will be judged by their actions and what they say, if not here than elsewhere. Nobody is beyond criticism, especially when it is justified and even the Queen of England can't stop people from talking about her family. This is human nature.

    The quality here is very high already. With over 1000 participants reading some postings, there are bound to be some people who will disagree with most or all of them and when the topic is controversial, there will be some who will also complain. Those are generally the most interesting and stimulating discussions. There is no requrement that anyone read every message on every thread. And people will say things in the heat of disagreement that they might reconsider later however, this is part of the spontaniety that makes this place as good as it is. Stiffling every discussions because someone's feelings might get a little hurt, even someone who doesn't often visit here could make this a very boring place.

    Therefore, IMO, Cable Asylum their policies and the actions of their moderator are a legitimate topic for conversation here especially when some of the people who post at both sites have something to say about it and the way they were treated there but are not allowed to post there. Are you suggesting that they have not voice here either?

    Use up fourm resources? Are you serious? How many terrabytes of space are available. Which grain of sand on the beach is missing, which droplet of water in the ocean is gone from the endless capacity for messages at this site?

  11. #36
    Forum Regular TinHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris
    It's too bad that I didn't see this thread before I went on my holiday vacation, or I would have answered it quickly before it started. Let me make a few points and challenge your accusations.

    Let me first ask why the first hint of any type of moderation on this site should bring about cries of censorship, communism or conspiracy? What used to be a VERY active community (here on AudioReview) has become home to numerous trolls and flamebait for the past couple of years because there had been almost no moderating. The first attempt in two years to clean up the discussions and try to get this forum back to the "audio-related" subjects that made it so great in the first place draws this type of harsh criticism? I'm a little disappointed.

    If everyone kept to giving "advice or counseling to newbies about speakers, amplifiers, phonograph cartridges or recordings", there would be no need for moderating at all. Unfortunately, we all know that is not realistic, and that people will push the limits of appropriate discussion in a PRIVATE forum such as ours. Yes, it's true, we will be drawing the lines a little more as to what is acceptable behavior in our forums, as we used to do back when Norbert was running things. We will not censor anyone, but we will delete or lock inappropriate threads and posts that we do find cross the line. All it takes is a little common sense and respect - something that should have been used anyway. It should go without saying, but I guess if you don't say it, people will not use it.

    About the thread that was locked - I locked it because it had gone on long enough, and people were complaining about it. Yes, other members were complaining about it, so I chose to lock it. If you want to debate a topic, that's fine. But we would rather people not go to great lengths to try and discredit another site, or other people here on our site. When other members begin complaining, it's obvious that the members have decided it's gone on long enough. We allowed it to take place, but it kept degrading. We would like to increase the quality level around here, and flaming will be a little less tolerated. I personally don't know enough about how Cable Asylum is run, but I don't think it's right for us to allow an ongoing flame session on their policies - do you? If you don't like their site, don't use it. But why use up our forum resources to complain about their policies or ethics? It won't solve anything will it?
    I hope the stalwarts, who have remained here for good times and bad, are allowed to discuss the topics they deem relevant. I think that a term such as "Nazi" should be self censored as it trivializes what it really represents, otherwise posts that express rancor about a topic that concerns the audio community, and not just this site, should be allowed. We're all in same building just in different rooms by the choices we make. Lively debate has been the cornerstone here. There are many places to go to preach to the choir and discuss the "benefits" of what is questioned here. I hope this site doesn't dissolve into the amalgam that constitutes most of the other sites and retains it's identity of a place where almost anything can be disscussed and nothing is accepted as truth without the recourse of debate. Demanding proof and questioning claims is a valuable lesson for anyone starting in this pursuit unaware that there are two schools of thought. I realize your aim isn't to stifle debate, but without knowledgable people discussing the issues there is little to be learned. I hope they are given the leeway they have asked for, and moderation is saved for the "sublimely abhorrent".
    TinHere

    Enjoying a virtual life.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinHere
    I hope the stalwarts, who have remained here for good times and bad, are allowed to discuss the topics they deem relevant. I think that a term such as "Nazi" should be self censored as it trivializes what it really represents, otherwise posts that express rancor about a topic that concerns the audio community, and not just this site, should be allowed. We're all in same building just in different rooms by the choices we make. Lively debate has been the cornerstone here. There are many places to go to preach to the choir and discuss the "benefits" of what is questioned here. I hope this site doesn't dissolve into the amalgam that constitutes most of the other sites and retains it's identity of a place where almost anything can be disscussed and nothing is accepted as truth without the recourse of debate. Demanding proof and questioning claims is a valuable lesson for anyone starting in this pursuit unaware that there are two schools of thought. I realize your aim isn't to stifle debate, but without knowledgable people discussing the issues there is little to be learned. I hope they are given the leeway they have asked for, and moderation is saved for the "sublimely abhorrent".
    We are not looking to stifle debate, but we would like to minimize the side effects of debates - those being the flame wars and personal attacks that have plagued our forum for some time now. We will not attempt to dictate the subject matter, but we would like it to pertain to audio/video if it's posted in the A/V forums, and we would like people to use common sense and use maturity/appropriate behavior. As I said, this should go without saying, we obviously need to say it.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinHere
    I think that a term such as "Nazi" should be self censored as it trivializes what it really represents, otherwise posts that express rancor about a topic that concerns the audio community, and not just this site, should be allowed.
    As I said, I chose this word very carefully and I understand its full implications and signifigance. It is an historical fact that the totalitarian method for surpressing intellectual challenge to its dogma is to both control the means of production and dissemination of opinion using it to promulgate it own point of view relentlessly and imposing total censorship on all other points of view. Those who dare to speak out are not merely not allowed to speak but are punished in every other conceivable way the authorities have available to them. In Nazi Germany it meant the gestapo hauling the offender off to a concintration camp to meet a sorry fate. In Soviet Russia and other communist countries, it meant a visit from the MVD (state security) who would assist the offender's tranisit to the Gualg Archipelligo (must reading for understanding the 20th century.) All dissent no matter how seemingly innocent is viewed as a challenge to The State's authority and is treated as an act of open revolt. At Cable Asylum dissent results in a warning followed by banishment which in the sense of being able to participate in debate means the same thing. Yes this is a very powerful word with a very powerful message. And it is the correct message as far as I am concerned and when I can no longer express it here, I'm leaving since this place will have become no better than the other one.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    The first thing to understand as I pointed out is that there are a lot of people who post at both sites, and more than a few like me who once posted at the other site and gave it up because the censorship there was not merely restrictive but so unfairly biased that it made it obvious that the site was used to promulgate a particular point of view at least IMO was for the purpose of commercial exploitation of the participants. Therefore some of us, me for one, is very alert and sensitive to any indication that this site is headed in the same direction.
    The one good thing about me (the admin of this site) having limited knowledge of home audio, is that you don't have to worry about me forcing any point of view or being biased toward any audio theories. The only thing I will try to keep out of these forums is inappropriate behavior including flaming, personal attacks, and people who visit here only to cause trouble (trolls).
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    This is still a very active community and when trolls do visit here, one or more of the regular members identifies him/her as a troll and they are quickly dispatched. Some of us think Burce was a very good moderator. Now who's flame throwing?

    I for one will be watching to see exactly where and how the lines are drawn and I will make my decision of whether or not to continue to participate based on it.
    Understood.
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    People who make public pronouncements, especially public personna who have credentials, published papers, technical websites, and moderate a well known board will be open to public comment and scrutiny and will be judged by their actions and what they say, if not here than elsewhere. Nobody is beyond criticism, especially when it is justified and even the Queen of England can't stop people from talking about her family. This is human nature.

    The quality here is very high already. With over 1000 participants reading some postings, there are bound to be some people who will disagree with most or all of them and when the topic is controversial, there will be some who will also complain. Those are generally the most interesting and stimulating discussions. There is no requrement that anyone read every message on every thread. And people will say things in the heat of disagreement that they might reconsider later however, this is part of the spontaniety that makes this place as good as it is. Stiffling every discussions because someone's feelings might get a little hurt, even someone who doesn't often visit here could make this a very boring place.
    I unerstand what you're saying. We won't be stifling every discussion where feelings get hurt, but we also won't allow some of the flaming and personal attacks that have filled this place up in the past. We would rather see people act a bit more civil, and stick to the subject matter, instead of flaming others.
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Therefore, IMO, Cable Asylum their policies and the actions of their moderator are a legitimate topic for conversation here especially when some of the people who post at both sites have something to say about it and the way they were treated there but are not allowed to post there. Are you suggesting that they have not voice here either?

    Use up fourm resources? Are you serious? How many terrabytes of space are available. Which grain of sand on the beach is missing, which droplet of water in the ocean is gone from the endless capacity for messages at this site?
    When I said forum resources, I was referring to hits on the database, not space. When 20 people post at the same time, it uses up system resources, making the forums work harder/move slower. So I wasn't making it up.

    It's understandable that some people may want to vent their displeasure about the way they were treated on another audio site, but please keep in mind that we don't want to be the place where everyone goes to complain about their experience on other audio sites. Can you blame us? I figured closing down that particular thread would make a statement and would get people to move on. All we ask is that you keep these posts to a minimum, and keep the majority of the discussions focused on the forum's subject matter. Fair enough?

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris
    It's understandable that some people may want to vent their displeasure about the way they were treated on another audio site, but please keep in mind that we don't want to be the place where everyone goes to complain about their experience on other audio sites. Can you blame us? I figured closing down that particular thread would make a statement and would get people to move on. All we ask is that you keep these posts to a minimum, and keep the majority of the discussions focused on the forum's subject matter. Fair enough?
    This topic comes up briefly every few months when someone from the other board who posts here too or someone who follows that board posts about something unusual or particularly outrageous that happened there. There is a brief flurry of discussion and then it dies not to be seen again for months and months. The thread you locked was just about dead and the subject was probably exhausted had you just left it alone.

    It might interest you to know that John Neutron only came here a few months ago after a particularly sharp confrontation at the other site. Some of our other participants such as PC Tower came previously for similar reasons. While I personally was not banished or even warned about my postings, it was quickly clear to me that it was not the kind of place I'd stick around in. People who left there for here or post on both boards are among the most frequent and best informed participants of this board.

    There is a lot more to life than audio cables and the culture of this message board has been that people feel free to discuss more than just this one narrow topic. That is one of the reasons why it is so successful. Don't try to fix it if it ain't broke.

  16. #41
    Chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    There is a lot more to life than audio cables and the culture of this message board has been that people feel free to discuss more than just this one narrow topic. That is one of the reasons why it is so successful. Don't try to fix it if it ain't broke.
    I've been with the company for over 4 years now and have watched the AudioReview forum participation drop significantly over the past couple of years. I'd say there's a little room for improvement. Yes, I agree that is successful overall, but it needs a little help to regain its old form.
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    "Don't try to fix it if it ain't broke" .
    This statement would have carried more weight if the quality of discussions and the traffic levels hadn't proven otherwise. We have specific forums for specific subject matter in hopes to group similar discussions together. We now have a forum dedicated to non-related topics for those who want to go off topic. I'm hoping that will satisfy people who need to talk about other topics. That should keep the technical forums more focused.

    Overall, I think we're on the same page.

  17. #42
    DMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    when I can no longer express it here, I'm leaving since this place will have become no better than the other one.
    First of all, in response also to your original post on this thread, I find much to disagree with in your posts, particularly those concerned with music. But that pales in comparison to the disagreement I would have were you not allowed to post what you believe. That "other" audio board is run PRECISELY the way I do NOT want to see this one run. The moderator runs his ship exactly as you posted. He posts things as facts that fly in the face of science. As such, he opens himself up to scrutiny on A/R. That said, I choose not to engage in further discussions on A/R as to what he does on his own board. That's his problem and that of his followers. But when he comes to A/R, he's fair game.

    Chris, if Skeptic and others are stifled here, I will follow them out. I'm taking you at your word below that that is not your intent. As Skeptic says, this forum ain't broke. It's the one place people can go to get BOTH sides of the WHOLE story. If we disagree, we're free to engage in discourse.

  18. #43
    Forum Regular TinHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    As I said, I chose this word very carefully and I understand its full implications and signifigance. It is an historical fact that the totalitarian method for surpressing intellectual challenge to its dogma is to both control the means of production and dissemination of opinion using it to promulgate it own point of view relentlessly and imposing total censorship on all other points of view. Those who dare to speak out are not merely not allowed to speak but are punished in every other conceivable way the authorities have available to them. In Nazi Germany it meant the gestapo hauling the offender off to a concintration camp to meet a sorry fate. In Soviet Russia and other communist countries, it meant a visit from the MVD (state security) who would assist the offender's tranisit to the Gualg Archipelligo (must reading for understanding the 20th century.) All dissent no matter how seemingly innocent is viewed as a challenge to The State's authority and is treated as an act of open revolt. At Cable Asylum dissent results in a warning followed by banishment which in the sense of being able to participate in debate means the same thing. Yes this is a very powerful word with a very powerful message. And it is the correct message as far as I am concerned and when I can no longer express it here, I'm leaving since this place will have become no better than the other one.
    I'm sure you chose your words very carefully and said what you did for impact. Nobody gets killed here and that's why I said what I did. I actually didn't even remember who said it, just that I thought it was over the top. Not an issue I would like to debate on this venue. In deference to the your contributions and the knowledge you impart I would rather see that in the rare moment than see this site lose what you have to offer. I hope you give Chris a fair chance and see what he did as his attempt to make things better even if you don't agree. Like I said earlier, and you said, it probably would have just died on it's own when those interested in it were ready to move on. Everyone else could ignore the thread. I wonder if those that complained are regular participants or like me just pop in once in awhile. If the complaints were from newcomers to the site maybe Chris felt compelled to show them that there will be some moderation in the hopes of having them return and contribute. Not saying right or wrong, just maybe a reason from Chris's perspective to intervene at least once. FYI...All I had to say was said on the forum and NOT in a private communication to Chris.
    TinHere

    Enjoying a virtual life.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris
    Yes, I agree that is successful overall, but it needs a little help to regain its old form.

    This statement would have carried more weight if the quality of discussions and the traffic levels hadn't proven otherwise.
    I'd bet that of all the forums on this site, the cable forum has generated more traffic than any of the others. I know, I've posted on them too. Some threads here are viewed by nearly two thousand different people and that doesn't count the multiple hits from the same people who are following a thread. Some threads in the past have consisted of dozens and dozens of entries by dozens of participants.

    Believe me, I don't enjoy the discussions about the other message board or about the moderator of it. It does not please me when that subject comes up and although I may have been the first to brint it up over a year ago, I haven't been the one to start new threads about it since or at least not for a long time. But there are things that need to be said and times in life when compromise is not an option. People who come here as complete beginners looking for advice on how to spend their money go there too not knowing what to believe. They get a very different message here than they get at the other board. They hear both sides of a story. And sometimes helping them decide who to believe means telling them why they get both sides here and only one side there. Putting this topic of discussion off this message board and into another category means most of those people will probably never see it. I do not see why protecting that message board from discussion and well deserved criticism here is of any value unless someone here is doing a favor for someone there. Why would that be? It doesn't smell right to me.

  20. #45
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    To the moderator.....

    Chris,

    It seems to me, after reading some of your replies, that closing a thread, especially one that was heading in a different direction of it's own volition, was the wrong statement to make considering what had transpired in very recent events elsewhere.

    You had the option of moving it to the Off Topic forum, why not do that?

    Since you wish to improve the quality, start by getting rid of this pitiful format and find something that is FAST and easier to follow. I realize that this software makes it easier on you, but it is a millstone around the necks of the users.

    The vast majority of people who complain about his site and leave, complain about how slow it is and has been for many a moon - long before this format change. The second largerst compaint, I remember, is the large number of trolls that inhabited some of the forums, I distinctly remember the General forum having it's troubles. The cable forum never really seemed overly bothered by them, beyond that, I can't speak for the other forums.

    Of the forums I did check occationally, this one and the general forum appeared to have the greatest activity. So I don't know why you think there is a particular problem here.

    Further, one of the people who moderates at the Cable Forum at AA only comes here to use this place as his private dumping ground(which he did again very recently).....he'd never get caught dead posting the stuff there that he posts here, so why not ban him from here?

    So that's my 2 cents.

    -Bruce

    PS - If I want to rant about how another forum is run, I believe I should be able to and alert others how they are likely to be treated! - Especially since it seems to be only one board out of many, many available. (okay, make it 3 cents)

  21. #46
    Forum Regular Mwalsdor_cscc_edu's Avatar
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    A Good Mod is like a Good Referee

    Chris -

    You know what's different about AR and most of the other forums that use moderators? The workload is shared among many, not a few or in the case of this board, one. Or so it seems. I thought I recognized an entire group of mods but why is it that you're the only one that assumes that position? And if that is the case, it will certainly turn into a "lynch mob" mentality where whatever you say or do will be scrutinized and ridiculed by someone. There should be moderators appointed to each forum, with a "super mod" or administrator that would oversee things in they're absence or acting as arbitrator.

    And if I were you I wouldn't embroil myself in a debate on the role of a moderator. The administration or each mod [if given that power] decides what is appropriate in that forum, and while that could be questioned by the readership, I wouldn't engage in a public debate. Instead you could post forum guidelines or each mod could post their own guidelines for their forum. But I wouldn't explain my actions every time they are called into question. Instead just PM the party or parties off-line to clarify matters or action taken.

    Another difference I see is that most forums choose moderators from the core membership. They were well known and established before adopting the position. And I'm sure many of the regulars could assume how the "rules" would be interpreted based on prior association or observation of that person. And while they may not necessarily have been the most popular member they were respected and the bond with the forum established.

    In the forum I moderate there is little argument among the regulars in how the mods govern. And the few that did eventually resigned in part because of those problems. This is not to say that mistakes aren't made or that the mods are always in agreement in how each forum administrator handles things but any disagreement is kept off-line. Once in a while mods will clash but cooler heads prevail and we "agree to disagree".

    Do what you want, but I see this going in a bad direction as things stand right now. Get some help or be more discrete about engaging the members and don't feel like you need to explain yourself. I think most everyone understands how he or she should behave, they're just yanking your chain.

    As I stated in an earlier post, I don't believe the Cable Forum is the proper outlet for the ongoing criticism of individuals or rival forums. Rather than axe the thread I'd have just moved it to a less specific forum [General / Off-Topic]. At the same time I wouldn't allow members from a competing forum to take pot shots at regulars here either. I realize the rancor goes with the subject matter and history isn't exactly on your side but if the forum doesn't take the high road it's little more than troll bait.

    MikE

  22. #47
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Hi Mike, excellent points with one major problem-who wants to be a moderator? The solicitation in the feedback forum didn't exactly catch fire. Tough job, although the AR tee-shirt would be cool!

    jc
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  23. #48
    Forum Regular Mwalsdor_cscc_edu's Avatar
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    Talking Not Me

    I was thinking the same thing. And I was going to suggest [still a good idea] taking the soliciting of the moderation positions a step further by asking key members if they would consider accepting. If the readership really wants to make this a better place and have a say so in what goes on then why not volunteer? Then I asked myself, "Would I be willing to do that?". No, I'm afraid I wouldn't for a number of reasons but foremost is that I just don't feel comfortable playing nurse maid to what can be a volatile forum. I don't need that.

    One of reasons I pursued the mod position at AK was because of our members and being able to discuss, as host, my real passion - tube electronics. I didn't foresee any problems with what was then a rather small, close nit group of people. Now we have grown since and potential trouble is only a post away but I've been rather fortunate thus far, in that most [though not all] of the members that frequent that forum are emotionally balanced. I've never edited [except typos], deleted [knowingly] or closed a thread. I've split or moved threads but only when that was requested. And the few times I've had to separate heated combatants the issues were resolved off-line. I try my best to not publically criticize anyone in my forum or do so in a way they don't "lose face". Still we may have lost a member or two because of my intervention but that's the price you pay to keep it a fun and educational place for everyone without fear of ridicule or persecution. Which I realize can be a fine line between posing or interpreting "hard questions".

    MikE

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mwalsdor_cscc_edu
    I was thinking the same thing. And I was going to suggest [still a good idea] taking the soliciting of the moderation positions a step further by asking key members if they would consider accepting. If the readership really wants to make this a better place and have a say so in what goes on then why not volunteer? Then I asked myself, "Would I be willing to do that?". No, I'm afraid I wouldn't for a number of reasons but foremost is that I just don't feel comfortable playing nurse maid to what can be a volatile forum. I don't need that.

    One of reasons I pursued the mod position at AK was because of our members and being able to discuss, as host, my real passion - tube electronics. I didn't foresee any problems with what was then a rather small, close nit group of people. Now we have grown since and potential trouble is only a post away but I've been rather fortunate thus far, in that most [though not all] of the members that frequent that forum are emotionally balanced. I've never edited [except typos], deleted [knowingly] or closed a thread. I've split or moved threads but only when that was requested. And the few times I've had to separate heated combatants the issues were resolved off-line. I try my best to not publically criticize anyone in my forum or do so in a way they don't "lose face". Still we may have lost a member or two because of my intervention but that's the price you pay to keep it a fun and educational place for everyone without fear of ridicule or persecution. Which I realize can be a fine line between posing or interpreting "hard questions".

    MikE
    Mike, I like your points. I wouldn't normally try and explain myself, but everyone knows that we've lost a great deal of interaction due to our lack of moderation. Maybe not specifically in the Cables forum, but across the board in the AudioReview forums. And it seems a bit harsh to see cries of censorship when the first thread is locked. Not surpising since anything and everything has been acceptable in the past, but still a little harsh.

    This is by no means a "dictatorship", as my intention has always been to select moderators who know a little more about the subject matter. The tough part is, choosing the right people. Only since we've adopted this new system format (that we will be keeping by the way, Bruce), have we been able to quickly research past posts by each member. We'll soon be able to make an educated decision when choosing moderators based on their posting history. It's still a little frustrating when people keep insinuating (as Skeptic just did) that we make these type of decisions to close threads based on money - as if we have anything to gain by protecting Cable Asylum. I guess some people will always want to believe in a conspiracy even if you're just trying to be fair. I've already stated that isn't the case, so believe what you will.

    As I said before - my intention is to return these forums back to their original glory. The first order of business is to weed out the trolls who flame others for the sake of entertainment. We'll also work on closing discussions that get out of control, off topic, and have degraded into flamefests.

    If anyone wants to continue this discussion, they can PM me with their thoughts and questions. I think I've been clear with my explanations. I'm sure my words can be picked apart and reassembled in many other ways that will keep this going for 3 more pages.

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