Dr.Toole and JBL

[pctower]

While I expect you duck this question as you do all others when it comes to your direct experience (do you really have any?) and system, I will ask it anyway.

What are the dimensions of your listening room and what treatments do you have?

Mine is 30 x 15 x 7. Since it is located in the basement, it has carpet over a poured concrete floor. As a "daylight" basement, there are windows on the end wall behind the listening position. I have six foot tall bass traps in the back corners, use room lenses behind the panels, wall diffusors on the back walls, and use eggcrate material on one side and a Ficus tree on the other for first reflection point damping. The ceiling uses acoustical tile. Slap echo is pretty tame and the traps have successfully smoothed out the bass nodes pretty well.

rw

Of course he will duck the question. You will be treated in the most condescending fashion here with all kinds of attacks on what you don't know, but he won't reveal one damn fact about his background, experience or personal system.

Welcome to the virtual house of cards built out of intellectual arrogance, hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty, double standards, and a smattering of dusty counterfeit blind tests published in the mainly now-defunct everything-sounds-the-same press foisted off on this board to the unsuspecting and uncritical as “scientific evidence” by people who have demonstrated absolutely no background or expertise that would qualify them to evaluate or conduct such tests. And all of this to the aim that the regulars here can delude themselves into believing that they are intellectually superior to the people that post over at AA, whom they often endearingly refer to as “stupid”, “fools”, “flat-earthers”, “believers in alien abductions” and “terminally gullible”.

[pctower]

"JBL Ti loudspeakers may also be connected to the power amplifier using several lengths of wire. The multi-wire connection method offers a number of options and advantages..."

The power amplifier - definitely only one. Also implies benefit from multi-wire connection (not something I have ever experienced but there you go).

"This way each individual speaker drive unit (and it's associated network) can be connected independently to the power amplifier..."

Leans towards the idea that there is a reason for doing this without yet saying it...

"By removing the bars, connections can be made to the individual network sections using two or more pairs of wires (four or more conductors) as shown in figure 1. The wires may be of the same type for both low, middle, and high frequency sections. The advantages are that wire effects (resistance, inductance, etc.) are reduced, and intermodulation of low and high frequencies in the cable is avoided."

Now we are getting somewhere "The advantages are that wire effects (resistance, inductance, etc.) are reduced...." this would certainly lead the reader to believe that wires make a sonic difference.

" Specialized wires for low, middle, and high frequencies may yield excellent results in some systems."

Specialized wires? Somehow better than normal day to day speaker wires?

"In either case, the cable for the low frequencies should be as short as possible and the left and right cable for each section must be the same length."

Must be the same length? Not should be the same length, not should be approximately the same length - very definite here - without stating exactly why of course.

"If the cable to one speaker system is longer than the one to the other speaker due to the distance from the power amplifier, make sure not to wind the excess cable up in the form of a coil..."

Well this one I dont know - I would hope speaker wires are shielded enough to handle coiled storage but they must know better - mustn't they?

"Another option is to power each separate drive unit (and its associated network section) from its own power amplifier."

Well there is the bi-amping option, finally.

FWIW -I dont think we can deduce Mr. O'Toole's beliefs from this quote in a brochure, merely that the brochure has been produced to keep cable companies happy as well as customers.

Ultimately it seems neither side can be bothered to run another DBT test, acceptable to both parties, to evaluate any cable induced sonic differences so it remains a matter of belief and interpretation of experiences. My experiences leave me to believe there are sonic differences in interconnects and speaker cables and I shop accordingly - others are free to choose for themselves.

FWIW 2:

IMHO the 3 elements that determine the sound of a system are: Source, System and Surroundings (room environment) in approximately equal measure. Of the System I would put about 75% of its contribution down to the speakers, 20% down to amplification and source equipment and the rest for sundry elements.

In other words sonically (and very non scientficially) you could best aim to get 5% of 33.3% changes for the sum of cabling / power items / system isolation equipment (stands et al). You decide between all of those the relative importance of each.

In other words YMMV - in simple terms.

Well, what a welcome breath of fresh air - someone who actually knows how to read and isn't blinded by dogma and bias.

Very nice analysis.

[E-Stat]

At least someone here can read intelligently. The manual clearly states three ways to attach wires to the speaker. In order of appearance, they are with a single wire and the amplifier, multi-wires and the amplifier, and finally, below the picture with multiple amplifiers.

FWIW, I have no direct experience with multi-wiring and thus offer no commentary. Since I have been using full range electrostats for nearly thirty years, the issue never arose for me.

rw

[Monstrous Mike]

And all of this to the aim that the regulars here can delude themselves into believing that they are intellectually superior to the people that post over at AA, whom they often endearingly refer to as “stupid”, “fools”, “flat-earthers”, “believers in alien abductions” and “terminally gullible”.

And we have a better sense of humour.

BTW, you don't need to have any knowledge, experience, or even equipment to ask some simple questions. Along the same vein, having thirty years experience in this hobby and owning sparkling spanky equipment doesn't make anybody an expert in this hobby either.

As I have pointed out before, people have gone their entire lives believing something to be true when it is in fact false. None of us is immune to this. If you think you are then you have your head in the sand. And yes, that would also mean "terminally gullible".

[pctower]

And we have a better sense of humour.

BTW, you don't need to have any knowledge, experience, or even equipment to ask some simple questions. Along the same vein, having thirty years experience in this hobby and owning sparkling spanky equipment doesn't make anybody an expert in this hobby either.

As I have pointed out before, people have gone their entire lives believing something to be true when it is in fact false. None of us is immune to this. If you think you are then you have your head in the sand. And yes, that would also mean "terminally gullible".

And you live in your fantasy world with your view that "belief" is important to most audiophiles. It's the experience they enjoy and the decisions they make that improve their personal experiences.

[Monstrous Mike]

And you live in your fantasy world with your view that "belief" is important to most audiophiles.

You're killing me here. I'm the one living in a fantasy world? OK, if I went over to the Cable Asylum and questioned their beliefs about cable sonics, you are telling that the response would indicate it is not important to them?! If the belief in cable sonics wasn't important, there would be no talk of science or engineering or frequency, rather only what was heard in what system with what cables.

It's the experience they enjoy and the decisions they make that improve their personal experiences.

I have no doubt that buying expensive wires improves the audiophile personal experience. I have always maintained that that is beyond question.

However, two other points continually jump out at me. The first is the incessant need to correlate this personal experience gain to some scientific quality of a cable or wire. The techno-babble used as justification is astounding not to mention the logic. And secondly, the attempts to discredit those who are perceived as intruding on this personal satisfaction are quite unprofessional and usually rather laughable. John Risch maintains a long list of people who are classified as discredited naysayers.

That post on Dr. Toole came close to doing exactly that without even his actual point of view being heard. Where was your call for fair play in that instance?

[RobotCzar]

Dr. Toole did not write the manual or make the claim stated. So this is a non-issue.

He is not in charge of Harman and one assumes that reality and precision would take a back seat to hype if Harman thought it was in their interest to say that cables are "important". We who go by the evidence have repeatedly stated that all the opinions of pundits, all the statements in brochures and manuals, all the "recommendations" of audio companies and goofy magazines, don't count as much as a simple test. Can I make that any clearer? We leave it to pctower to make lawyer arguments about truth (which is a very humorous concept).

Cable fans can't demonstrate that they really hear differences, so they read manuals (probably written my junior marketeers) to support for their ideas. Go for it, but it ain't any kind of evidence. You deserve what you get if you treat manual as some source of infallible information.

[pctower]

Dr. Toole did not write the manual or make the claim stated. So this is a non-issue.

He is not in charge of Harman and one assumes that reality and precision would take a back seat to hype if Harman thought it was in their interest to say that cables are "important". We who go by the evidence have repeatedly stated that all the opinions of pundits, all the statements in brochures and manuals, all the "recommendations" of audio companies and goofy magazines, don't count as much as a simple test. Can I make that any clearer? We leave it to pctower to make lawyer arguments about truth (which is a very humorous concept).

Cable fans can't demonstrate that they really hear differences, so they read manuals (probably written my junior marketeers) to support for their ideas. Go for it, but it ain't any kind of evidence. You deserve what you get if you treat manual as some source of infallible information.

Your first sentence makes an absolute claim. What is your basis for that claim? Do you also claim he did not approve it before it went out? If so, what is your basis for that claim?

The rest of your post is extraneous to the subject, which is what does the public record suggest Dr. Toole's opinion on cables might be. I never even remotely suggested that either the interview or the manual is proof of anything. Go find someone else who wants to argue with you about anything beyond your first sentence.

[pctower]

You're killing me here. I'm the one living in a fantasy world? OK, if I went over to the Cable Asylum and questioned their beliefs about cable sonics, you are telling that the response would indicate it is not important to them?! If the belief in cable sonics wasn't important, there would be no talk of science or engineering or frequency, rather only what was heard in what system with what cables.


I have no doubt that buying expensive wires improves the audiophile personal experience. I have always maintained that that is beyond question.

However, two other points continually jump out at me. The first is the incessant need to correlate this personal experience gain to some scientific quality of a cable or wire. The techno-babble used as justification is astounding not to mention the logic. And secondly, the attempts to discredit those who are perceived as intruding on this personal satisfaction are quite unprofessional and usually rather laughable. John Risch maintains a long list of people who are classified as discredited naysayers.

That post on Dr. Toole came close to doing exactly that without even his actual point of view being heard. Where was your call for fair play in that instance?

And where, may I ask, have I ever even hinted that I believe that CA is representative of audiophiles in general? Of course the people who post there and on audio boards in general often argue about "beliefs".

As for Risch, I have consistently been far harder on him than you in your wildest dreams ever thought of being.

Fair play? What goes out in public is subject to comment. Harmon promotes him extensively on their website, and he permits them to do that. If he disagrees with material his company publishes he has a choice. Either publicly disavow it, or take his lumps for being associated with a company that publishes stuff as that.

I certainly never asked Dr. Toole to associate himself with Harmon and plaster his face and works all over their website.

[Richard Greene]

"Of course he will duck the question. You will be treated in the most condescending fashion here with all kinds of attacks on what you don't know, but he won't reveal one damn fact about his background, experience or personal system. Welcome to the virtual house of cards built out of intellectual arrogance, hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty, double standards, and a smattering of dusty counterfeit blind tests published in the mainly now-defunct everything-sounds-the-same press foisted off on this board to the unsuspecting and uncritical as “scientific evidence” by people who have demonstrated absolutely no background or expertise that would qualify them to evaluate or conduct such tests. And all of this to the aim that the regulars here can delude themselves into believing that they are intellectually superior to the people that post over at AA, whom they often endearingly refer to as “stupid”, “fools”, “flat-earthers”, “believers in alien abductions” and “terminally gullible”.

RG responds:
This is a epic slam from the grandmaster of put-downs, in a style so clever that 1,000,000
Jon Risch's at 1,000,000 typewriters could not hope to match.

I predict that by the end of the year, after careful analysis of every word and many hostile debates on this forum, PC will declare that, in fact, these few words on wires were never spoken by Dr. Toole at all -- because if every fifth word is deleted, and the remaining paragraph is studied by looking at its reflection in a mirroe, it is plain to anyone with sense that the so-called "Toole Paragraph" really contains deranged alien commands to the WirePolice.

Either that, or a new debate will be launched on whether Dr. Toole knows anything of value about wires, since one person can't be an expert on everything, excluding Mtrycrafts, of course. As an example, let's consider Albert Einstein -- he couldn't figure out his income tax.

[pctower]

"Of course he will duck the question. You will be treated in the most condescending fashion here with all kinds of attacks on what you don't know, but he won't reveal one damn fact about his background, experience or personal system. Welcome to the virtual house of cards built out of intellectual arrogance, hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty, double standards, and a smattering of dusty counterfeit blind tests published in the mainly now-defunct everything-sounds-the-same press foisted off on this board to the unsuspecting and uncritical as “scientific evidence” by people who have demonstrated absolutely no background or expertise that would qualify them to evaluate or conduct such tests. And all of this to the aim that the regulars here can delude themselves into believing that they are intellectually superior to the people that post over at AA, whom they often endearingly refer to as “stupid”, “fools”, “flat-earthers”, “believers in alien abductions” and “terminally gullible”.

RG responds:
This is a epic slam from the grandmaster of put-downs, in a style so clever that 1,000,000
Jon Risch's at 1,000,000 typewriters could not hope to match.

I predict that by the end of the year, after careful analysis of every word and many hostile debates on this forum, PC will declare that, in fact, these few words on wires were never spoken by Dr. Toole at all -- because if every fifth word is deleted, and the remaining paragraph is studied by looking at its reflection in a mirroe, it is plain to anyone with sense that the so-called "Toole Paragraph" really contains deranged alien commands to the WirePolice.

Either that, or a new debate will be launched on whether Dr. Toole knows anything of value about wires, since one person can't be an expert on everything, excluding Mtrycrafts, of course. As an example, let's consider Albert Einstein -- he couldn't figure out his income tax.

Gee, and I thought I was being so gentle and respectful.

Speaking of bazaar twists that could occur before the end of the year, I have not ruled out the possibility of voting for JFK. If I do, you can have a field day rubbing my face in that.

Also, don't know if you're a Sarah Brightman fan at all, but we saw her at America West Arena on Tuesday, and it was one of the most enjoyable concerts I've been to in a logn time. Given my hick, southwestern taste in music, I know that isn't saying much, but I highly recommend catching her on her current tour if at all possible.

Quite a spectacular show.

[E-Stat]

Also, don't know if you're a Sarah Brightman fan at all, but we saw her at America West Arena on Tuesday, and it was one of the most enjoyable concerts I've been to in a logn time..

I have enjoyed her voice since the Phantom days and being the fool that I am, I missed her performance here in Atlanta.

rw

[Richard Greene]

"Speaking of bazaar twists that could occur before the end of the year, I have not ruled out the possibility of voting for JFK. If I do, you can have a field day rubbing my face in that."

RG:
I'm still waitin' for that there Iraqi Dumbocracy you predicted.
I see nothing in JFK's record that even suggests he was against the Iraq War,
which is my big beef with tweedle dumb. In fact, at one time JFK was calling for 40,000 more troops. So it seems it's a rich white Yale guy from MA vs. a rich white Yale guy from TX. Too bad Howard temper tantrum Dean is gone -- he was different --
a rich white Yale guy from VT. I could not possibly vote for an ultraliberal like Kerry
even though I often consider voting out the incumbent rather than my usual wasted vote
on the Libertarian candidate that 99% of voters will ignore. Bush is history unless there is an unexpected surge for Nader who was an oddball when I heard him speak in college about 35 years ago ... and is now just an old odd ball. Bush can't stand up to the fact that there will be at least 1.5 million fewer jobs during his term -- claiming it would have been worse without tax cuts just doesn't create a positive message, even though probably true.
.
.
.
."Also, don't know if you're a Sarah Brightman fan at all, but we saw her at America West Arena on Tuesday, and it was one of the most enjoyable concerts I've been to in a long time. "

RG
Thanks for the tip. I've been seeing performers I should have seen 30-40 years ago in their prime and never did: Aretha Franklin a few weeks ago and Al Green next week.
Some young talent would be a change of pace after these geezers.

I just know 30 years from now baby-boomer audiophiles will be "debating" whose hearing aid sounds more natural and whether high-end aides create a better stereo image.

[mtrycraft]

Your first sentence makes an absolute claim. What is your basis for that claim? Do you also claim he did not approve it before it went out? If so, what is your basis for that claim?.

Since when does the VP of research write speaker manuals or signs off on them? Harman ain't a mom and pop operation. But, hey, kill two birds, send an email and ask, this and about the cables he tested.

[mtrycraft]

I assert no hard proof other than observations over thirty years of experience with some nice gear. And that of many trusted ears I have known over the years. Take it or leave it.

FWIW, I do place cables last in the order of audible hierarchy in an audio system.

1. Speakers
2. Source(s)
3. Amplification
4. Rooms and treatments
5. Cables

rw

Ah, yes, 30 years of flawed observations and you expect that to have any merit, any meaning? Hardly.

[mtrycraft]

While I expect you duck this question as you do all others when it comes to your direct experience (do you really have any?) and system, I will ask it anyway.

What are the dimensions of your listening room and what treatments do you have?

Mine is 30 x 15 x 7. Since it is located in the basement, it has carpet over a poured concrete floor. As a "daylight" basement, there are windows on the end wall behind the listening position. I have six foot tall bass traps in the back corners, use room lenses behind the panels, wall diffusors on the back walls, and use eggcrate material on one side and a Ficus tree on the other for first reflection point damping. The ceiling uses acoustical tile. Slap echo is pretty tame and the traps have successfully smoothed out the bass nodes pretty well.

rw

Still irrelevant, isn't it, whether or not I have a second of experience, or a system, a boombox or a clock radio. Since you seem to be hanging all your claims on yours, you have a whole lot of luggage, burden of proof, to support your claims. Please feel free to criticise my spelling or grammar as you don't seem to be able to support any of your claims with evidence.

[pctower]

Ah, yes, 30 years of flawed observations and you expect that to have any merit, any meaning? Hardly.

Oh yes. Placebo is so all encompassing, all powerful, all everything that it permeated every nook, cranny and second of his last 30 years, causing every one of his experiences to be flawed fantasy.

As with any extremist, your one-dimensional life view ultimately will self-destruct by virtue of your own tunnel vision.

[mtrycraft]

Of course he will duck the question. You will be treated in the most condescending fashion here with all kinds of attacks on what you don't know, but he won't reveal one damn fact about his background, experience or personal system.

Welcome to the virtual house of cards built out of intellectual arrogance, hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty, double standards, and a smattering of dusty counterfeit blind tests published in the mainly now-defunct everything-sounds-the-same press foisted off on this board to the unsuspecting and uncritical as “scientific evidence” by people who have demonstrated absolutely no background or expertise that would qualify them to evaluate or conduct such tests. And all of this to the aim that the regulars here can delude themselves into believing that they are intellectually superior to the people that post over at AA, whom they often endearingly refer to as “stupid”, “fools”, “flat-earthers”, “believers in alien abductions” and “terminally gullible”.

Just as soon as you can tell me how any of it is relevant to the issues at hand? It isn't, just in case you have a difficult time finding a reason.

I see you still have yet to cite a single reference to positive results for differences. Why is that?

[mtrycraft]

-- claiming it would have been worse without tax cuts just doesn't create a positive message, even though probably true. .

But not testable as any such speculations.

[mtrycraft]

Oh yes. Placebo is so all encompassing, all powerful, all everything that it permeated every nook, cranny and second of his last 30 years, causing every one of his experiences to be flawed fantasy.

As with any extremist, your one-dimensional life view ultimately will self-destruct by virtue of your own tunnel vision.

Oh, the placebo is all around, never know when it strikes or sleeps. Thirty years is not an insurance policy against it. But what do I know? I have no experience, I don't know a thing, I don't have a system, all irrelevant, really. His experience makes him happy, great. But, it is really meaningless to others as it is so unreliable.

Self destruct? No, I will die of old age, or an accident or become fatally ill.
Tunnel vision? Help me out of it then. Just a few real citations to support any claims for differences will do.

[WmAx]

I'll pass for the time being.

I'm much more interested in the mystery of why you won't publicly reveal your communication with Dr. Toole.

Perhaps could it be that you and he are one and the same?

Actually, this might mean nothing, maybe something. At this suggestion, for fun, i read some random post by mtrycrafts from years past as found on google web search. The result? On several occasions he makes comments about psychoacoustics and related functions in a very authorative-type manner, like somenoe who is very experienced in this field. The excerts that I read happened to be extremely accurate. Logically, the next step would be to find what state Toole lived in when mtrycrafts used to post on AA. You can look up the regional location of the IP addresses, usually, and AA attaches this data(and assuming he did not use a proxy or use a non-local dial in to mask his location). Next, try to match grammatical patterns from mtrycrafts to known Toole texts..... Hopefully be able to find a connecting incidence and/or error that mtrycrafts moniker has made that can conncect him to Toole...

Hey... like I said, this may be a wild goose chase(probably is!), but anything for entertainment. Of course, I'm far too lazy to investiage further. :-)

-Chris

[pctower]

Actually, this might mean nothing, maybe something. At this suggestion, for fun, i read some random post by mtrycrafts from years past as found on google web search. The result? On several occasions he makes comments about psychoacoustics and related functions in a very authorative-type manner, like somenoe who is very experienced in this field. The excerts that I read happened to be extremely accurate. Logically, the next step would be to find what state Toole lived in when mtrycrafts used to post on AA. You can look up the regional location of the IP addresses, usually, and AA attaches this data(and assuming he did not use a proxy or use a non-local dial in to mask his location). Next, try to match grammatical patterns from mtrycrafts to known Toole texts..... Hopefully be able to find a connecting incidence and/or error that mtrycrafts moniker has made that can conncect him to Toole...

Hey... like I said, this may be a wild goose chase(probably is!), but anything for entertainment. Of course, I'm far too lazy to investiage further. :-)

-Chris

Did a quick pass and all I could find was that he used AOL back in 1999.

But it was fascinating to see how much things have not changed.

Here's what Rod (AA's owner) said about mtrycrafts back in 1999:

> > 95% of the snide comments
are started by Mtry. He rarely answers the original post and then he baits every single poster in the thread with snide comments.

Ask a question about wire, 4 responses and 4 or 5 more from Mtry. If that's not trying to start an agrument, then do tell me what it is?

I'm sorry but folks can only take being snidely called a moron so many times and they'll snap. It is so hard to see? Unfortunately, it gets to the point some folks are conditioned to call Mtry names being he even opens his mouth (or presses submit).

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...rafts&session=

I also found one post that suggested he at one time had been banned from this board.

A lot more juicy stuff there in those old AA archives. I find it mind-boggling that someone like Pat D has been around since at least 1999 and it's virtually impossible to distinguish his posts back then from the ones of today. Same with mtrycrafts.

I've always hated the put-down "get a life", but it just might apply in this case. Almost enough to shock me back to my senses and realize what a complete waste of time this is.

Thanks for the suggestion. It was fun going that far back in audio board history.

[Bobby Blacklight]

If you look at the brochure on the Lansing site

http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...tik/page12.jpg

The have a statement that the multiple binding posts are for the "serious audiphile" to use specially selected wire sets for each frequency range and up to 4 amplifiers. Which is all well and good except for the fact that you can't defeat the passive crossover, no biamp/quadamp switches. No one would passive biamp like that. JBL has advocated the benefits of bi-wiring in there owners manuals going back as for as the XPL series released in the late 1980's. So this is nothing new to them and was in there manuals before Dr.Toole came on board.

[mtrycraft]

JBL has advocated the benefits of bi-wiring in there owners manuals going back as for as the XPL series released in the late 1980's. .

So does Paradigm manual has that praise for buy-wiring, a company that uses extensive DBT testing. Yet when you call them and ask for DBT data to support this recommendation, the phone is silent.