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  1. #1
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    Dr.Toole and JBL

    From time to time on this forum, reference is made to research by Dr. Floyd E. Toole, who I believe is still Corporate Vice President of Acoustical Engineering for Harman International. Although I can't find the results of any studies he has done on speaker cables on the web, Mtrycraft and Monstrous Mike in recent posts claim Dr. Toole has conducted tests on different cables and found they made no difference on his speakers.

    It could be I am misunderstanding what has been said about Dr. Toole, but if he thinks different speaker cables make no difference in performance, this is in conflict with the following advice quoted from the manual on his firm's JBL TiK Series speakers:

    "Speaker cables and interconnects are important components in an audio system. With all the factors at an appropriate level of quality the speaker cable and the interconnect cable can make sigificant contributions to the percieved sound quality. Careful selection of cables and interconnects can add or subtract marked shadings in tonal character. Likewise different cables can have a dramatic impact on the dynamic contrasts experienced by listeners."

    http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Ow...Ti10K%20om.pdf

    What do other forum members make of this contradiction?
    Last edited by okiemax; 03-08-2004 at 12:12 PM.

  2. #2
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    Oh Brother!

    You're going to love all the twisting, turning, sophistry and hypocricy you'll see forthcoming on this one.

    I have repeatedly asked for proof that Dr. Toole doesn't think cables make a difference and none has ever been forthcoming. Yet, you will frequently see someone here claim that is his belief - and of course the person who is usually disseminating that unsubstantiated claim is usually one of most vocal in their attacks against unsubstantiated cable claims.

    As something that I thought you might find interesting, the following is the only public pronouncement of Dr. Toole I have ever seen regarding cables:

    4. [Interview Question] I believe that many audiophiles would get more from their equipment if they would transfer some of their interest and money for audio cables into acoustics and room adaption (sic), but since audio cables seem to be of such big interest, maybe you could share what you think are the relevant qualities when it comes to loudspeaker cables?

    [Dr. Toole's Answer] Cables are very profitable products, and that is the main driving force behind them. At a time when advanced technology has reduced the number of tweaks that audio enthusiasts can play with, it is natural that these products should become topics of conversation. I call the most extreme of them "audio jewellery" (sic) , in that they do nothing for the audio system except make the owner feel better or more proud. Superbly performing audio cables can be purchased for very moderate prices. Even "bad" cables, are not bad enough to be audibly worse than the truly nasty things that some rooms or poorly designed loudspeakers can do.

    http://www.sonicdesign.se//tooleinw.htm

    Notice he says "(s)uperbly performing cables can be purchased ..." The only reasonable inference to be drawn from that statement is that there is a difference in how comercially produced cables perform.

    He goes on to say that "'bad cables', are not bad enough to be audible worse than the truly nasty things that some rooms or poorly designed loudspeakers can do." Again, the only fair inference from that sentence is that there are good and bad cables from a sonic standpoint and that a bad cable can do as much harm sonically as bad room acoustics or bad speakers.

    I posted this over a year ago, and when I did I couldn't believe the contortions the regulars here went through to try and claim that one cannot conclude from this statement that Dr. Toole must believe that cables do make a difference (assuming he hasn't changed his mind since he gave that interview). That's when I realized the so called "scientists" here are as mired in their dogma as are the golden ears.

    And of course there was also the time I posted the add copy from the Levinson site (subsidiary of Harmon) for their interconnects. It was hilarious watching all of the rabid naysayers coming to the defense of a cable purveyor's add copy, simply because that particular purveyor happened to be owned by Harmon who happened to be Dr. Toole's employer.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    He goes on to say that "'bad cables', are not bad enough to be audible worse than the truly nasty things that some rooms or poorly designed loudspeakers can do." Again, the only fair inference from that sentence is that there are good and bad cables from a sonic standpoint and that a bad cable can do as much harm sonically as bad room acoustics or bad speakers.
    My interpretation of that statement is that "bad" cable's effect on the sound is insignificant to the effects of acoustics and speakers.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  4. #4
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax

    What do other forum members make of this contradiction?
    It's not likely that Dr. Toole, a VP(?), wrote or even read this. I don't think the views of a company(or, in this case, that of a technical writer) must necessarily mesh with that of all employees.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  5. #5
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    From time to time on this forum, reference is made to research by Dr. Floyd E. Toole, who I believe is still Corporate Vice President of Acoustical Engineering for Harman International. Although I can't find the results of any studies he has done on speaker cables on the web, Mtrycraft and Monstrous Mike in recent posts claim Dr. Toole has conducted tests on different cables and found they made no difference on his speakers.

    It could be I am misunderstanding what has been said about Dr. Toole, but if he thinks different speaker cables make no difference in performance, this is in conflict with the following advice quoted from the manual on his firm's JBL TiK Series speakers:

    "Speaker cables and interconnects are important components in an audio system. With all the factors at an appropriate level of quality the speaker cable and the interconnect cable can make sigificant contributions to the percieved sound quality. Careful selection of cables and interconnects can add or subtract marked shadings in tonal character. Likewise different cables can have a dramatic impact on the dynamic contrasts experienced by listeners."

    http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Ow...Ti10K%20om.pdf

    What do other forum members make of this contradiction?
    I think Dr. Toole has been built up more by the yeasayers than anybody (including that fence sitter pctower) to be bigger than life so that attempts to chop him down will have a more lasting effect. Perhaps this is the reverse strawman theory.

    To summarize, Dr Toole has published his efforts regarding his method of designing speakers. That is, the way he approached speaker design was to thoroughly control the testing of various designs using DBT testing procedures with trained listeners. He is admired by many of us scientifically-thinking forum members for his assertion that sighted evaluation of audio components has the real risk of introducing significant enough biases into subjective evaluations as to render them meaningless. He has written a peer-reviewed paper on this very subject with Sean Olive.

    Since I am from Ottawa and being in the government working on technical issues, I have run into Dr. Toole's co-workers on occasion at the Communication Research Centre (CRC). Many don't really give it much thought but one did relate an informal test to determine in exotic cabling should be used in his speaker design if there was a performance impact. The guy didn't really even know what they were using for wire at the time and he guessed some sort of Monster 14 gauge copper stranded wire. Anyways, the test with the much more expensive wire, using the same testing criteria as his speakers, did not show any performance improvement and he dropped the matter. There are no studies or reports of this because it was simply a side issue of some curiosity.

    While Dr. Toole has moved on to Harmon, some of his ex co-workers work in this lab: http://www.crc.ca/en/html/aas/home/home. If you care to read some of the work at that site, you will see that Dr. Toole's methods have formed the basis for subjective evaluation of audio signals. These techniques were used to develop the mp3 coding algorithms.

    In the end, what we have is a proven method of subjective evaluation of audio signals. All that is needed is the effort to apply this method to a set of audio cables for a scientific evaluation. Everything is there except the willingness to exude such an effort. That's the point. It can be done. However, don't expect somebody who has an opinion that there are no differences to jump up and expend the energy to complete such a test. I know I have no desire to.

    With opportunity for somebody to grab the chance at shutting people like me up for good, I simply cannot understand why it hasn't been done yet. Can you imagine the first audiophile club who could produce testing results that show conclusive evidence of real cable sonic differences? They'd be international heros in the audio community.

    So what's the excuse for not doing this?
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  6. #6
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    Can you imagine the first audiophile club who could produce testing results that show conclusive evidence of real cable sonic differences? They'd be international heros in the audio community. So what's the excuse for not doing this?
    Do you really think that "an audiophile club" could produce a study that would be accepted as rigorous enough by the scientific testing crowd here? Also, introducing the inevitable sonic degradation of a relay controlled switchbox and double the number of cables and connectors is diametrically opposed to those who seek the maximum fidelity. I have yet to see a test where the box itself is tested and not assumed to be "perfect" based upon theoretical assumptions.

    Quite frankly, few audiophiles couldn't care less whether or not labcoats agree with them.

    rw

  7. #7
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    It's not likely that Dr. Toole, a VP(?), wrote or even read this. I don't think the views of a company(or, in this case, that of a technical writer) must necessarily mesh with that of all employees.
    Absolutely. Someone rogue audiophile slipped in to the JBL organization unbeknownst to everyone else in the company and not only wrote that speaker wires are an important component in an audio system, but also promoted the potential advantages of biwiring. Naturally, Toole was completely unaware that this unsuspected plant was in cahoots with some likeminded co-conspirator engineers such that his speakers are going out the door engineered with biwiring capability and the appropriate multiple connectors on the back.

    rw

  8. #8
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Absolutely. Someone rogue audiophile slipped in to the JBL organization unbeknownst to everyone else in the company and not only wrote that speaker wires are an important component in an audio system, but also promoted the potential advantages of biwiring. Naturally, Toole was completely unaware that this unsuspected plant was in cahoots with some likeminded co-conspirator engineers such that his speakers are going out the door engineered with biwiring capability and the appropriate multiple connectors on the back.

    rw
    This is a product manual, right? Do you really think a VP(especially one over acoustic research) reads it before it goes out the door? Anyway, companies are about making money, and if it give audiophiles a warm fuzzy about their products, then I think they will do it.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    You're going to love all the twisting, turning, sophistry and hypocricy you'll see forthcoming on this one.

    I have repeatedly asked for proof that Dr. Toole doesn't think cables make a difference and none has ever been forthcoming. Yet, you will frequently see someone here claim that is his belief - and of course the person who is usually disseminating that unsubstantiated claim is usually one of most vocal in their attacks against unsubstantiated cable claims.

    As something that I thought you might find interesting, the following is the only public pronouncement of Dr. Toole I have ever seen regarding cables:

    4. [Interview Question] I believe that many audiophiles would get more from their equipment if they would transfer some of their interest and money for audio cables into acoustics and room adaption (sic), but since audio cables seem to be of such big interest, maybe you could share what you think are the relevant qualities when it comes to loudspeaker cables?

    [Dr. Toole's Answer] Cables are very profitable products, and that is the main driving force behind them. At a time when advanced technology has reduced the number of tweaks that audio enthusiasts can play with, it is natural that these products should become topics of conversation. I call the most extreme of them "audio jewellery" (sic) , in that they do nothing for the audio system except make the owner feel better or more proud. Superbly performing audio cables can be purchased for very moderate prices. Even "bad" cables, are not bad enough to be audibly worse than the truly nasty things that some rooms or poorly designed loudspeakers can do.

    http://www.sonicdesign.se//tooleinw.htm

    Notice he says "(s)uperbly performing cables can be purchased ..." The only reasonable inference to be drawn from that statement is that there is a difference in how comercially produced cables perform.

    He goes on to say that "'bad cables', are not bad enough to be audible worse than the truly nasty things that some rooms or poorly designed loudspeakers can do." Again, the only fair inference from that sentence is that there are good and bad cables from a sonic standpoint and that a bad cable can do as much harm sonically as bad room acoustics or bad speakers.

    I posted this over a year ago, and when I did I couldn't believe the contortions the regulars here went through to try and claim that one cannot conclude from this statement that Dr. Toole must believe that cables do make a difference (assuming he hasn't changed his mind since he gave that interview). That's when I realized the so called "scientists" here are as mired in their dogma as are the golden ears.

    And of course there was also the time I posted the add copy from the Levinson site (subsidiary of Harmon) for their interconnects. It was hilarious watching all of the rabid naysayers coming to the defense of a cable purveyor's add copy, simply because that particular purveyor happened to be owned by Harmon who happened to be Dr. Toole's employer.

    He didn't publish his research. Nothing to publish as it is basic cable science. But, anyone can email him as he answers his mail. I see you have not done this since my last suggestion to you that you should. Why not?
    mtrycrafts

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    From time to time on this forum, reference is made to research by Dr. Floyd E. Toole, who I believe is still Corporate Vice President of Acoustical Engineering for Harman International. Although I can't find the results of any studies he has done on speaker cables on the web, Mtrycraft and Monstrous Mike in recent posts claim Dr. Toole has conducted tests on different cables and found they made no difference on his speakers.

    It could be I am misunderstanding what has been said about Dr. Toole, but if he thinks different speaker cables make no difference in performance, this is in conflict with the following advice quoted from the manual on his firm's JBL TiK Series speakers:

    "Speaker cables and interconnects are important components in an audio system. With all the factors at an appropriate level of quality the speaker cable and the interconnect cable can make sigificant contributions to the percieved sound quality. Careful selection of cables and interconnects can add or subtract marked shadings in tonal character. Likewise different cables can have a dramatic impact on the dynamic contrasts experienced by listeners."

    http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Ow...Ti10K%20om.pdf

    What do other forum members make of this contradiction?
    He didn't write the manual. Not sure if he reviewed it But-
    Did you read the section Connections? He recommends 18ga as a minimum based on distance, right?

    So, someone trying 24 ga would not be appropriate, right?
    Same for interconnects. You don't want high capacitance, can roll off frequency response. Basic electronics.
    No, Toole didn't publish his cable research. Nothing to publish as it is basic cable science.

    He did most of his research, 25 years worth, at the Canadian Nationa Research Center, Ottowa. Do a google.
    I corresponded with him directly as i posted. You can too by email. So can pctower or the next person. So far I have not heard anyone who has done so, yet they keep on *****ing.
    Do some of the legwork as I have done. More rewarding that way. You might get silver or gold poisoning if I keep feeding everyone with a silver or gold spoon.
    mtrycrafts

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    It's not likely that Dr. Toole, a VP(?), wrote or even read this. I don't think the views of a company(or, in this case, that of a technical writer) must necessarily mesh with that of all employees.

    However, if you read the secton called 'Cables' it suggests 18ga as a minimum, based on distance. So, there is nothing mysterious about the speaker cables. Rather simple.
    If one uses 24 ga, then it is outside of recommended practice and you are asking for it. As you know, we don't recommend 24 ga
    mtrycrafts

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Absolutely. Someone rogue audiophile slipped in to the JBL organization unbeknownst to everyone else in the company and not only wrote that speaker wires are an important component in an audio system, but also promoted the potential advantages of biwiring. Naturally, Toole was completely unaware that this unsuspected plant was in cahoots with some likeminded co-conspirator engineers such that his speakers are going out the door engineered with biwiring capability and the appropriate multiple connectors on the back.

    rw

    Check out the section 'Cables' Did you miss that one? Oh, 18ga is the minimum based on distance. Nothing futher is stated except by distance requirements. Rather simple, no magic, no bs, no hype, no mystery cable needed. But, you habve no idea, we know.
    mtrycrafts

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    by the way

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Absolutely. not only wrote that speaker wires are an important component in an audio system, but also promoted the potential advantages of biwiring.
    rw

    Try to read the whol manual before you spout off nonsense. The reason for the posts is for multiple amplifier use, not the promotion of buy-wiring. Please quote the benefits of your speculations.
    mtrycrafts

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Do you really think that "an audiophile club" could produce a study that would be accepted as rigorous enough by the scientific testing crowd here? Also, introducing the inevitable sonic degradation of a relay controlled switchbox and double the number of cables and connectors is diametrically opposed to those who seek the maximum fidelity. I have yet to see a test where the box itself is tested and not assumed to be "perfect" based upon theoretical assumptions.

    Quite frankly, few audiophiles couldn't care less whether or not labcoats agree with them.

    rw
    You are spouting hogwash about sonic degradation. You have no basis of facts to base you vailed specualtions as that is all it is. Prove it. Stop guessing and speculating.
    mtrycrafts

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    Forum Regular Tony_Montana's Avatar
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    It could be I am misunderstanding what has been said about Dr. Toole, but if he thinks different speaker cables make no difference in performance, this is in conflict with the following advice quoted from the manual on his firm's JBL TiK Series speakers.
    I don't see why we always have to rely on "experts" to tell audio community about cables and its effect on a system. With a little bit of investigation and knowledge, role of a cable and how to minimize its effects can be pretty much understood by anybody. It is not rocket science
    "Say Hello To My Little Friend."

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    My interpretation of that statement is that "bad" cable's effect on the sound is insignificant to the effects of acoustics and speakers.
    Of course you would rewrite beyond recognition the natural meaning of his words to suit your dogma. That's exactly what I predicted.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    He didn't publish his research. Nothing to publish as it is basic cable science. But, anyone can email him as he answers his mail. I see you have not done this since my last suggestion to you that you should. Why not?
    You're twisting and turning even more than I thought you would on this one.

    As for e-mailing, apparently you have. Since you have been one of Toole's most active promoters on this site, why don't you report specifically what his position is on cables, and the details of his research to arrive at those conclusions. While you're at it, why not report on his explanation of the interview I quoted.

    What's the big mystery here?

  18. #18
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    ... you vailed
    Yes, I've skied Vail before. Great powder.

    rw

  19. #19
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Of course you would rewrite beyond recognition the natural meaning of his words to suit your dogma. That's exactly what I predicted.
    Your interpretation doesn't make sense. I don't think you could find an undamaged cable that degrades the signal nearly as much as room acoustics or even loud speakers.

    Given the context of the statements that came before it and the mangled nature of the sentence itself, I don't think it's a stretch to reach my conclusion.
    Last edited by Rockwell; 03-09-2004 at 07:16 AM.
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  20. #20
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Do you really think that "an audiophile club" could produce a study that would be accepted as rigorous enough by the scientific testing crowd here?
    First of all, it wouldn't be "us" who would be accepting that study. And secondly, it doesn't matter who does this testing, if it is documented and accurate, anybody else should be able to reproduce it. Science doesn't contain these biases towards who did the testing that you are trying to imply. It is the test, the test method and the results that should stand on their own. The originators of such testing are really irrelevent other than the respect that they would garner for their efforts.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Also, introducing the inevitable sonic degradation of a relay controlled switchbox and double the number of cables and connectors is diametrically opposed to those who seek the maximum fidelity. I have yet to see a test where the box itself is tested and not assumed to be "perfect" based upon theoretical assumptions.
    Inevitable sonic degradation? You admitted that you are not a person of science so why now are you making statements that even well-versed audio engineers would need to test and validate? I know that you would like to say that DBTs are impossible to conduct but that doesn't make it a fact.

    As I have mentioned before, there is standard that exists with regard to subjective audio testing. It is called ITU Recommendation BS.1116-1 and if you really want you can get a copy yourself here: http://www.itu.int/rec/recommendatio...116-1-199710-I.

    You only have one valid point with regard to cable sonics and that is your own in-home testing experience. If you stick with that, you'll be fine. If you try to throw out will scientific ideas, strawman arguements and just plain wrong facts, your case weakens considerably.

    You are trying to validate what you perceived in your audio system. I have trying to point out how to do that and you are simply not accepting it. That's your perogative but I stand by my points and am open to criticism.
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  21. #21
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Try to read the whol manual before you spout off nonsense.
    I did. I find your lack of reading comprehension tiresome.


    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    The reason for the posts is for multiple amplifier use, not the promotion of buy-wiring.
    Let's read together, shall we?
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
    "JBL Ti loudspeakers may also be connected to the power amplifier using several lengths of wire. The multi-wire connection method offers a number of options and advantages...

    This way each individual speaker drive unit (and it's associated network) can be connected independently to the power amplifier...

    By removing the bars, connections can be made to the individual network sections using two or more pairs of wires (four or more conductors) as shown in figure 1. The wires may be of the same type for both low, middle, and high frequency sections. The advantages are that wire effects (resistance, inductance, etc.) are reduced, and intermodulation of low and high frequencies in the cable is avoided. Specialized wires for low, middle, and high frequencies may yield excellent results in some systems. In either case, the cable for the low frequencies should be as short as possible and the left and right cable for each section must be the same length. If the cable to one speaker system is longer than the one to the other speaker due to the distance from the power amplifier, make sure not to wind the excess cable up in the form of a coil...

    Another option is to power each separate drive unit (and its associated network section) from its own power amplifier.

    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________


    You seem to read what you want to read instead of that which is actually there.


    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Please quote the benefits of your speculations.
    See above notation for JBL's "speculations".


    rw

  22. #22
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Let's read together, shall we?

    You seem to read what you want to read instead of that which is actually there.

    See above notation for JBL's "speculations".
    What exactly are trying to do here? Are you quoting something from JBL in an effort to discredit Dr. Floyd Toole? Does that mean his work previously is invalidated?

    Or perhaps you are trying to imply that perhaps Dr. Toole has revealed how he really feels about speaker wires by being the VP in a company with ad copy like that.

    Instead of speculating yourself to death, email Dr. Toole and ask him for the test results his company has done on biwiring. Now that would be useful. Or is ad copy good enough evidence for your beliefs?
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  23. #23
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    Inevitable sonic degradation? You admitted that you are not a person of science...
    I am a person of science. That would be computer science.


    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    ...why now are you making statements that even well-versed audio engineers would need to test and validate?
    That is precisely my point, Mike, Rather than assuming that such switch boxes and doubling the number of cables and connections is inaudible, "well-versed audio engineers do need to test and validate" that assumption first. I asked Mtry for such substantiation and I extend the invitation to you as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    I know that you would like to say that DBTs are impossible to conduct but that doesn't make it a fact.
    What gave you that idea? What I question is testing that involves the introduction of a new set of variables that are completely absent in the normal use of audio systems and assumed to have no effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    ...As I have mentioned before, there is standard that exists with regard to subjective audio testing. It is called ITU Recommendation BS.1116-1 and if you really want you can get a copy yourself here: http://www.itu.int/rec/recommendatio...116-1-199710-I.
    Cool. I'll take a look.


    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    If you try to throw out will scientific ideas...
    This reminds me of my college statistics text entitled "How to Lie With Statistics". What I throw out are unproven assumptions and sweeping generalizations of audio behavior not based on direct experimentation, but extrapolation of results with other gear.

    rw

  24. #24
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    What exactly are trying to do here? Are you quoting something from JBL in an effort to discredit Dr. Floyd Toole?
    What a curious response. Here's the basic play-by-play

    1. I reported the manual described the multi-wiring capability and commentary that there are potential benefits.
    2. Mtry said the multiple posts were there for multiple amplifiers, not multi-wiring.
    3. I cited the passages that state otherwise. That's it. No black helicopters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    Does that mean his work previously is invalidated?
    You tell me. I'm simply reporting the content found in their manual. It would be amusing if it were the case that JBL technical writers did refute some of their own company research with their commentary.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 03-09-2004 at 08:28 AM.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    However, if you read the secton called 'Cables' it suggests 18ga as a minimum, based on distance. So, there is nothing mysterious about the speaker cables. Rather simple.
    If one uses 24 ga, then it is outside of recommended practice and you are asking for it. As you know, we don't recommend 24 ga
    It is the paragraph under that one that I find troubling. However, I suspect that it comes from the marketing department rather than Dr. Toole, given his apparent position on cable sonics.
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