Bi-wiring The question that can't be answered?

[PAOGORMAN2001]

I have read I don't know how many articles about whether bi wiring works or not.I want o know if it makes an audible difference
I have Cambridge Soundworks M80 3 way bookshelf speakers and a Onkyo TX-8511 100 watt receiver I only play cd's. Has there been any concrete proof that it makes a noticeable diiference or is the jury still out on this.? or is it going to be a "what ever sounds good to you " answer. What's the latest!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Pete

[Peter Duminy]

At best, there might be a very subtle difference in areas of imaging depth and perhaps ambiance. But is it worth all the extra cost? I have never found a justification for the added outlay IMHO.

You may also find this interesting reading from B&W's findings here:

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm...67F00D0B7473B37

Also, this article may help:

http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html

I am sure other members may well disagree, but then, this what makes this hobby so rewarding. :-)

[paul_pci]

I didn't know that biwiring was an "outlay" of money; it's just a specialized speaker wire or you just use four separate speaker wires from whereever.

[Mike Anderson]

It costs more because you're buying twice as much cable. If you insist on super-fancy cable, that can be very expensive.

Personally, I use magwire, so it isn't that much more expensive to bi-wire. So I just do it, and don't worry about how/whether it makes the sound better.

[PeruvianSkies]

If it were my decision I would NOT bi-wire, but instead use that money on some really good speaker wires, like the PS Audio xstreams that I use...they are super-rediculously thick, but have great response time and have really helped bring definition into my system over the AudioQuest GR-8's that I had prior, which were bi-wired.

[Dusty Chalk]

On one of my previous systems, I chose to bi-wire to eliminate confusion. I was confused over whether I should connect my speaker wire to the upper jumpers, or to the lower jumpers (or something else). If I biwired, it was a non-decision, so that's what I did.

[poneal]

What is biamping and bi-wiring? When you biamp, you have an amp for each driver. If it's a three way then you will need 6 amp channels to bi-amp the three-way. If you have a 2 way then you will need 4 amps instead of two. So, what is going on when you do this? I mean sure it sounds cool, but wouldn't you really rather understand what is going on?

To that end, here is what is going on so that everyone can understand. To keep it simple I will be basing my assessment on a typical 2 way speaker. In a two way design you have a low pass and a high pass crossover. One to route to the woofer and the other to route signals to the tweeter. The usual method is to connect the two crossovers on a board and tie it into the pos and neg legs. In this design, you only have 1 set of speaker terminals. In the bi-amp scene, the designer choose to keep the two crossovers separate and provide two sets of terminals, normally connected via a jumper so that only 1 set would be needed. If you wanted to use it then you take the jumper out and connect the tweeter to one amp and the woofer to another amp. Of course being fed the same signal. You must adjust the volume of each amp so that both drivers sound level matched. This is why most people do not bi-amp. It's a pain to set the signals everytime.

Now on to bi-wiring. The network is still separate and you have the two terminals connected by a jumper. In bi-wiring you are only taking the neg. leg of the amp and connecting it to both negs. on the terminals. Same with the pos leg. Now you tell me, will this make any difference? I highly doubt it at all. This is not what it was made for. Bi-amping has been used in the pro. industry for years. Now they are trying to sell it as some new innovative idea to the consumer market via bi-wiring. No one in their right mind would add more wire to end up with the same thing. Do you understand what I mean? Bi-amp makes sense. You can drive a hugh woofer with a separate amp and use a lower powered amp for the tweeters and mid.

So, does bi-wiring make an audible difference. I doubt it and I really don't even care to try it. It's a waste of cable and money IMHO. No bi-amping has some benefits.

Hopefully, I have shed some light on this topic as it seems to be a common misunderstanding.

Paul

[hermanv]

..edit...
So, does bi-wiring make an audible difference. I doubt it and I really don't even care to try it. It's a waste of cable and money IMHO. No bi-amping has some benefits.

Hopefully, I have shed some light on this topic as it seems to be a common misunderstanding.
Paul

While it is true that below a certain price point bi-wiring does next to nothing because that's just not the weakest link. Above those prices, Bi wiring can and does help, there is no confusion, just ill informed folks who try and hear with theory instead of their ears.

[Smokey]

So, does bi-wiring make an audible difference. I doubt it and I really don't even care to try it. It's a waste of cable and money IMHO. No bi-amping has some benefits.

I agree with you. Bi amping make sense, but bi wiring doesn’t sense electrically or theoretically.

Theoretically, once two wires (woofer and tweeter connection) from the negative or positive leg of speaker connection touch each other at the amps terminal, they become electrically equivalent. Which mean both high and low wires will have the same node* at any point along both wires.

So if replace two wires that have same node with only one wire, nothing has changed electrically

*node: electrical property of junction in a circuit.

[hermanv]

I agree with you. Bi amping make sense, but bi wiring doesn’t sense electrically or theoretically.

Theoretically, once two wires (woofer and tweeter connection) from the negative or positive leg of speaker connection touch each other at the amps terminal, they become electrically equivalent. Which mean both high and low wires will have the same node* at any point along both wires.

So if replace two wires that have same node with only one wire, nothing has changed electrically

*node: electrical property of junction in a circuit.

Your opinion is based on the belief that wires have no properties, characteristics or parameters such as ohms, capacitance or inductance all of which and more wires do have..

Once you assign all of these properties to a wire you will see that the node of which you speak is in fact seperated by a multiple of parametric devices and that one point on the wire is not in fact identical to any other point on the wire.

So you are theoretically incorrect. That's not very important, what is important is that you form your opinion by listening.

[Smokey]

Hi Hermanv

You make good point regarding node point along the wires and that is correct. My point was regarding as how amplifier's output terminal see speaker woofer and tweeter cross over terminals (high and low pass filter). In biwiring, instead of having the connection at the speaker end of the cable, it is made at the amplifier terminal.

So in biwiring, the equivalent speaker cross over circuitry that amplifier sees stay the same. The only that have changed is cable property via doubling it

[hermanv]

Hi Smokey;

While the effects of wire on the sound of an audio signal seem to be not fully understood, there is little doubt that different wires do make an impact beyond what conventional theory might have us believe.

It is precisely this idea that the mid/tweet signal does not travel in the same wire that is carrying the heavier woofer currents that is the advantage of bi-wiring. As an engineer my proffesional training gives little or no explanation for many of these effects. They should be so small as to be inaudible, but my ears tell me differently.

Whether it's speaker cable of interconnect cable my system has suffucient resolution to tell that various wires sound different. It's not allways possible to tell which is better or more accurate, but I can usually pick the one that suits my personal prefference.

I have heard speakers where bi-wiring had no effect at all, and others where the sound "opened up" considerably. I have never heard a case where bi-wiring made things worse. So I say, as always; try it, listen and then decide.

[poneal]

Hi Smokey;

While the effects of wire on the sound of an audio signal seem to be not fully understood, there is little doubt that different wires do make an impact beyond what conventional theory might have us believe.

It is precisely this idea that the mid/tweet signal does not travel in the same wire that is carrying the heavier woofer currents that is the advantage of bi-wiring. As an engineer my proffesional training gives little or no explanation for many of these effects. They should be so small as to be inaudible, but my ears tell me differently.

Whether it's speaker cable of interconnect cable my system has suffucient resolution to tell that various wires sound different. It's not allways possible to tell which is better or more accurate, but I can usually pick the one that suits my personal prefference.

I have heard speakers where bi-wiring had no effect at all, and others where the sound "opened up" considerably. I have never heard a case where bi-wiring made things worse. So I say, as always; try it, listen and then decide.

This is not really true in bi-wiring. You see that is the problem. Both wires carry the same signal. The second wire is nothing more than a jumper wire connected to the other terminal. Both wires are carrying the same signal. The crossover is what separates the lows and highs (nothing to do with the wire--it's just a wire). In bi-amping, you can send different signals if you're using an active crossover. If not then you're still just sending the same signal to another amp and then using that amp to power the woofer or tweeter whichever one it is connected too.


Wires are like that snake oil they tell you to put in your cars engine to extend it's life. It usually doesn't work and gums up the inside. Sure manufactures can do things to wires to change the impedance, etc which will make it sound different. The question becomes do you want the manufacturer changing the original source signal in the first place? I don't. I want my signal to be reproduced as it was originally intended. Good old 14/2 zipcord works just as good as the mega dollar cables and doesn't change the signal as much.

Paul

[E-Stat]

I agree with you. Bi amping make sense, but bi wiring doesn’t sense electrically or theoretically.

At least that you are aware of. There are dozens of speakers and amplfiers that support biwiring. Before you counter with "they just do that to placate stupid audiophiles", I suggest you actually talk to one of their designers so that you may understand the engineering reason(s).

As for me, I am neutral on the topic because I use full range electrostats.

rw

[hermanv]

This is not really true in bi-wiring. You see that is the problem. Both wires carry the same signal. The second wire is nothing more than a jumper wire connected to the other terminal. Both wires are carrying the same signal. The crossover is what separates the lows and highs (nothing to do with the wire--it's just a wire). In bi-amping, you can send different signals if you're using an active crossover. If not then you're still just sending the same signal to another amp and then using that amp to power the woofer or tweeter whichever one it is connected too. Paul

This is important, both wires do not carry the same signal, that's the point. The woofer current flows in one pair of a bi-wired set and the mid/tweet current in the other pair so with varing frequency they certainly do not carry the same current, so therefore they don't carry the same signal at all. While the signal at the amplifier terminals starts out being identical, with bi-wiring by the time it reaches the speaker jacks it's no longer identical.

Wires are like that snake oil they tell you to put in your cars engine to extend it's life. It usually doesn't work and gums up the inside. Sure manufactures can do things to wires to change the impedance, etc which will make it sound different. The question becomes do you want the manufacturer changing the original source signal in the first place? I don't. I want my signal to be reproduced as it was originally intended. Good old 14/2 zipcord works just as good as the mega dollar cables and doesn't change the signal as much.Paul

You build your own speakers but can't hear the differences between various wires? What makes you think that zip cord is the most accurate, why isn't it just as likely it's the least accurate? You seem to believe wire can change the signal, so when someone (such as Cardas) uses a far heavier gauge, ultra pure copper, low inductance construction and Litz wire (flat to much higher frequencies) you suspect they are changing the signal - for the worse, huh?

A lot of zip cord is an alloy of copper and steel (makes the wire stronger) steel is magnetic and has hysteresis, some zip cords sound so bad even a boom box will let you hear the difference. Zip cord is made the way it is not because that's the best way to carry a signal, but because that's the cheapest possible way to make a wire pair.

Some people get an idea sort of locked in their brain and turn off all ability to think. Just listen is all I ask.

[Dusty Chalk]

This is important, both wires do not carry the same signal, that's the point. The woofer current flows in one pair of a bi-wired set and the mid/tweet current in the other pair so with varing frequency they certainly do not carry the same current, so therefore they don't carry the same signal at all. While the signal at the amplifier terminals starts out being identical, with bi-wiring by the time it reaches the speaker jacks it's no longer identical.

Except...wire is a conductor, and what flows out of the amplifier is electricity, and electricity flows at the speed of light. If we were talking about bi-amplification, I'd agree with you, but I don't think this is the case with bi-wiring.

[FLZapped]

I have read I don't know how many articles about whether bi wiring works or not.I want o know if it makes an audible difference
I have Cambridge Soundworks M80 3 way bookshelf speakers and a Onkyo TX-8511 100 watt receiver I only play cd's. Has there been any concrete proof that it makes a noticeable diiference or is the jury still out on this.? or is it going to be a "what ever sounds good to you " answer. What's the latest!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Pete

The absolute answer is yes, it makes a difference. However, the question that matters, which you correctly asked: Does it make an audible difference? Well, maybe. There are so many variables to take into account that it is totally system dependant.

Allow me to list some:

The amplifier impedance over frequency
The wire impedance over frequency
The impedance characteristics of each driver over frequency
The effects of the crossovers over frequency

Bi-wiring essentially adds the small amount of wire impedance into the total impedance of the speaker system connected to the amplifier, assuming the amplifiers is of low enough output impedance, in order to attempt to increase the effectiveness of the crossover.

-Bruce

[Resident Loser]

...I don't give a rats @$$ about this constant, goes-nowhere debate...however...

Inside your loudspeaker there are short, isolated lengths of wire that go from the appropriate points of the Xover circuit board to the appropriate drivers...if so equipped, there is a jumper that joins the LF and HF sections of said Xover...

Now, if you bi-wire, you are essentially taking those short, relatively protected wires and extending them outside of their little cabinet-style home and exposing them to all manner of EFI/RFI/EIEIO...not to mention adding a bit of resistance and capacitance which changes the make-up of the specifically designed crossover...

jimHJJ(...you do the math...)

[jneutron]

This is not really true in bi-wiring. You see that is the problem. Both wires carry the same signal.
Paul

That would be incorrect.

Good old 14/2 zipcord works just as good as the mega dollar cables and doesn't change the signal as much.
Paul

Nothing you have posted yet supports that assertion.

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

So in biwiring, the equivalent speaker cross over circuitry that amplifier sees stay the same. The only that have changed is cable property via doubling it

That is also incorrect.

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

At least that you are aware of. There are dozens of speakers and amplfiers that support biwiring. Before you counter with "they just do that to placate stupid audiophiles", I suggest you actually talk to one of their designers so that you may understand the engineering reason(s).rw

The designers will not have correct engineering reasons. None of them ever do. Talking with them will be useless.

That doesn't mean biwiring is incorrect, just that they do not understand.

As for me, I am neutral on the topic because I use full range electrostats.
rw

Perhaps you should add some rear firing tweeters to bring those "(darn, can't remember what the word was..insert something witty here)" panels up to bare minimal audiophile standards..

How's it going? Just figured I'd drop in and add some negativity..

Cheers, John

[Resident Loser]

That would be incorrect.

Nothing you have posted yet supports that assertion.

Cheers, John

...what do you think this is young man, the Audio Lab?

What's up? How goes the trials and tribulations of home owning?

jimHJJ(...my contribution: good fences make good neighbors...)

[jneutron]

Now, if you bi-wire, you are essentially taking those short, relatively protected wires and extending them outside of their little cabinet-style home and exposing them to all manner of EFI/RFI/EIEIO...not to mention adding a bit of resistance and capacitance which changes the make-up of the specifically designed crossover...jimHJJ(...you do the math...)

Oh NO!! Not EFI/RFI/EIEIO

Math...math....hmmm, what's that??

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

The designers will not have correct engineering reasons. None of them ever do. Talking with them will be useless.

Omniscient, are we?

Perhaps you should add some rear firing tweeters to bring those "(darn, can't remember what the word was..insert something witty here)" panels up to bare minimal audiophile standards..

Skeptic/Soundmind's attempted derogatory term is "dressing screens".

How's it going? Just figured I'd drop in and add some negativity..

Aside from some rain, things are doing well here in AR. Negativity? I rather appreciate it when knowledgeable folks correct the simple conclusions made by armchair audio engineers.

rw

[jneutron]

...what do you think this is young man, the Audio Lab?...

Oh jeeze, I ended up in the wrong place..no wonder there were new posts here...

...
What's up? How goes the trials and tribulations of home owning?

jimHJJ(...my contribution: good fences make good neighbors...)

Not bad. Patio is done just in time for the leaves to drop.
Bedroom is done, carpeted, in ceiling speaks, closet done. Right now, lookin at LCD's. I think I'll be goin wit the sharp 42D62U unit, second choice the 37D90U.

Once that puppy is in and runnin, I'm headin to the basement to make the workshop.

That, I cannot wait for...chompin at the bit..

Oh, almost forgot, wuz at the Blue Note on 3rd street last Friday, Chick Corea played.

The bassist? Holy mother of (insert diety)....I have never seen such talent at the bass..unbelievable.

Then Sat, at Iridium, solo guitarist..very good also.

Yourself??

Cheers, John