Bi-wiring The question that can't be answered?

[jneutron]

...what do you think this is young man, the Audio Lab?...

Oh jeeze, I ended up in the wrong place..no wonder there were new posts here...

...
What's up? How goes the trials and tribulations of home owning?

jimHJJ(...my contribution: good fences make good neighbors...)

Not bad. Patio is done just in time for the leaves to drop.
Bedroom is done, carpeted, in ceiling speaks, closet done. Right now, lookin at LCD's. I think I'll be goin wit the sharp 42D62U unit, second choice the 37D90U.

Once that puppy is in and runnin, I'm headin to the basement to make the workshop.

That, I cannot wait for...chompin at the bit..

Oh, almost forgot, wuz at the Blue Note on 3rd street last Friday, Chick Corea played.

The bassist? Holy mother of (insert diety)....I have never seen such talent at the bass..unbelievable.

Then Sat, at Iridium, solo guitarist..very good also.

Yourself??

Cheers, John

[Resident Loser]

Oh jeeze, I ended up in the wrong place..no wonder there were new posts here...Yourself??

Other than trying to keep neighbors and their relatives, contractors, tenants and other non-descript associates thereof from using my driveway as their own private passage to India, not much...'ceptin leaves, which I don't mind so much...I'm fond of mindless endeavors, like visiting audio sites...

Replaced the muffler and tail-pipe on my Jeep...heads were a-turnin' and it wasn't because I'd won a concours d'elegance...yet another use for the ol' Sawzall...what a wonderful, constructively destructive tool! Steel casement windows, tree limbs, tail-pipes...do it's uses never end?

A new Diehard, serpentine drive belt, and 6qts of 10W-30 Mobil1 and I'ze winterized...

The high point was baking a coupla' loaves of bread...I'm gettin' purty good at it...

Also managed to get a few CDs at the Tower Records near Roosevelt Field...sad, another old name bites the dust...

jimHJJ(...good luck with the shop...)

[jneutron]

The high point was baking a coupla' loaves of bread...I'm gettin' purty good at it...

Bein gluten-intolerant, I can understand that. I'm gonna buy one of dem bread makin thingy's, a friend made some and holy mackeral, do I miss bread..there's some awful nice wheat free bread mixes out there which mimic reglar bread quite well...without the consequences.

Also managed to get a few CDs at the Tower Records near Roosevelt Field...sad, another old name bites the dust...

jimHJJ(...good luck with the shop...)

You near there, eh? I'm goin to get the lcd at 6th ave electronics I believe.

Sawsalls are great, aren't they?

Yah, havin a workbench for the woodworking is something I miss terribly. This time, I'm gonna add dust collection to it.

Cheers, John

[hermanv]

In ceiling speaks? In ceiling speaks !#**\\!

I recommend banishment from the site.

Will you at least bi-wire them?

[jneutron]

In ceiling speaks? In ceiling speaks !#**\\!

I recommend banishment from the site.

Will you at least bi-wire them?

No.

(Think Richard Crenna in that comedy spoof of first blood..)

Each is fed by about 100 feet of 14 guage...

That 14 guage is bundled with 7 cat5e cables, two thermostat cables, 1 75 ohm cable, two 1/2 inch copper pipes, and comes through the same stud bay as 2 romex runs.

Each speak is five inch.

Each has a 3/4 inch cone tweet.

Each are placed asymmetrically in the ceiling.

The x'overs are stock.

In the basement, the wires are stripped and twisted to the feeds from the RECEIVER. (note, I did remember to connect red to red, black to black..)

The connections are dangling from a floor joist.

They are dangling two feet from a central air unit.

The cd's are burned copies made with mp3 at 128..

Had enough?? Gonna spill your guts?? Hmmm??

They met the need.

Cheers, John

Almost forgot..Bdrm, kit, and living room speaks all tie into a pushbutton selector box with those strip and push type connections, and most of the wire conductors are actually in the connector.. (ewwww)

[hermanv]

Getting back to the discussion:

The goal is the "best" possible sound from a system. Best of course is a subjective description, but only I have to be pleased with my own end results.

First I need to back up a bit. My audiophile friend and I decided to build our own speakers because we just couldn't afford those commercial ones we liked. It took 7 years and $7,500 (assuming free labor), but we have built some three way speakers that are as good or better than any speakers we have heard. We are currently working on the second set for me, most parts were purchased in sets of 4 so most of the money has been spent.

All of this is relevant because of the things we learned about wiring. As the speakers were being developed and the quality gradually improved, we learned that exotic and expensive passive parts (silver coils, tin foil and polypropylene capacitors) sounded considerably better than the cheaper mass market parts. We ended up replacing all the wires and the rest of an already decent system with better electronics and cables to enable the drivers to perform to their fullest.

Now finally, the speaker wiring: We tried all kinds of arrangements with several brands of specialty wires. In the end we found a couple of trueisms. 1. A larger gauge always sounded better. 2. Silver was better than copper but the difference was inaudible (to us) on the woofer. In playing around with various configurations we found a winner.

We moved the crossover to be right at the back of the power amp and ran longer seperate wires to each driver. We used 9.5 AWG Cardas copper for the woofer, it's fairly cheap and nice and big. We used 5 wires of 11.5 AWG arranged in a low inductance ribbon for the Mid, silver sounded a bit cleaner but we just couldn't afford that much silver (about 9 AWG aggregate) and finally becase the current and power are low we were able to use 5 silver 21 gauge wires for the tweet also arranged in a low inductance ribbon (about 17.5 gauge aggregate). All the wire was made by Cardas, whose stories read better than most. All the wires were Teflon insulated and (damn it) sounded better when they were raised off the floor.

We concluded that at the extremes of audio performance tiny details are audible and make a difference. Remember that a CD has a dynamic range of 96dB, that means the smallest signal being captured is very, very small so effects that do not show up in first order measurements can easily influence the end result. Put another way, if you are listening at around 4 watts average level which is near normal active listening levels, then the smallest signal would be around 600 microwatts perhaps smaller if you allow for over sampling.

[jneutron]

You state "low inductance" for your various wires.

What were the measured LCR's for them?

Cheers, John

[poneal]

getting a little heated and opinions are coming in. I base mine of facts. Here is a link to a typical bi-wire scheme:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Sc...ire/Page1.html

Notice the jumpers? It's not like you take two sets of hots/negs and connect the two hots to amp hot and the two negs to the amp neg. You have one wire from the amp pos/neg and then little jumper wires to attach to the speaker terminals. Like I said before, "One signal feeds both" in this arrangement. The xover is what separates the highs from the lows. The amp has nothing to do with splitting the signal. And just because you jump it to the extra terminal doesn't mean that signal changes. It doesn't change until it goes into the xover and that's what bends the signals. So to recap for those hard of getting it. You have an amp, you run a wire from the amp to the speakers. You splice into the wire and add some jumpers and route them to the other terminal. Same signal, same amp, same everything except those little jumper wires going to different speaker terminals.

Bi-Amp has some merit. This is where you take a separate amp for each driver (one for the tweeter, one for the mid, one for the woofer, etc). In a two way speaker this means you need four amps to run a bi-amp. Two amp channels for each speaker. One channel to the tweeter, the other to the woofer in a two way. Why would this help? Well, think about it. The woofer is the power hungry guy. It may take the full 100watts and leave the leftovers for the mid and tweet. Probably driving them into distortion. With 1 amp on the woofer and one on the tweeter you don't have that problem. Just because the woofer distorts doesn't mean the mid or tweeter will because they are on separate paths.

Anyway, I've typed until I'm blue in the face so if you don't get it by now, maybe you will get it in the future or then again, you may never get it. Good luck.

Paul

[jneutron]

getting a little heated and opinions are coming in.Paul

Heated??? Where? What thread are you reading?

I base mine of facts.

No, actually you haven't

You have only stated opinions, and now, you link to the opinion of others.

Go through Jim's calculations, and find me where he calculates the difference in dissipation between biwiring and normal.

So to recap for those hard of getting it. You have an amp, you run a wire from the amp to the speakers. You splice into the wire and add some jumpers and route them to the other terminal. Same signal, same amp, same everything except those little jumper wires going to different speaker terminals.

Well, where's the wire dissipation component??

If you wish to explain to us why biwiring is not effective, then you must come up with something better than what you have posted. You're not floatin my boat.

Anyway, I've typed until I'm blue in the face so if you don't get it by now, maybe you will get it in the future or then again, you may never get it. Good luck.
Paul

Silly.

If you wish to "get it, just ask. I would be happy to explain what you are missing.

If you just want to slap and run, do so. You won't learn anything that way, however.

Now, pay attention.

10 feet #14 awg, 6 mOhms per foot, 60 milliohms total.

Two sets connectors, 15 milliohms per contact, another 60 milliohms...total insertion, .12 ohms.

Now, single wire to crossover...two signals...lets make the math easy...8 ohms. 4 amps peak is 16 times 8, or 128 watts peak.

now, two signals...4 amps bass, 4 for highs. When both signals are at peak current, wire sees 8 amperes. Losses in the wire, I squared R, 64 times .120, or 7.68 watts dissipative loss in the wires.

Now, seperate them...each wire sees 4 amps peak..I squared R for each wire peaks at 1.92 watts....times 2, is 3.84 watts.

So, single wire has twice the peak loss as a pair of the same resistance. The most important aspect is not the total power loss, but how it happens. The peak loss is a function of the multiplication of the two currents, not summation as biwiring does. And the difference is 3.8 watts out of a sum of 256, or 1.48% of the total..can you hear 1.48 % distortion??Hmmm?

I could post the equations, I could post the graphs....but from your demeanor, I fear I would be pissin in the wind. You seem not to want to learn..

Perhaps I misread you?? If so, I apologize...if not, take it elsewhere..It gets tiring explaining the simple stuff to those who don't care..

Cheers, John

[FLZapped]

getting a little heated and opinions are coming in. I base mine of facts. Here is a link to a typical bi-wire scheme:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Sc...ire/Page1.html

Notice the jumpers? It's not like you take two sets of hots/negs and connect the two hots to amp hot and the two negs to the amp neg. You have one wire from the amp pos/neg and then little jumper wires to attach to the speaker terminals. Like I said before, "One signal feeds both" in this arrangement. The xover is what separates the highs from the lows. The amp has nothing to do with splitting the signal. And just because you jump it to the extra terminal doesn't mean that signal changes. It doesn't change until it goes into the xover and that's what bends the signals. So to recap for those hard of getting it. You have an amp, you run a wire from the amp to the speakers. You splice into the wire and add some jumpers and route them to the other terminal. Same signal, same amp, same everything except those little jumper wires going to different speaker terminals.

Bi-Amp has some merit. This is where you take a separate amp for each driver (one for the tweeter, one for the mid, one for the woofer, etc). In a two way speaker this means you need four amps to run a bi-amp. Two amp channels for each speaker. One channel to the tweeter, the other to the woofer in a two way. Why would this help? Well, think about it. The woofer is the power hungry guy. It may take the full 100watts and leave the leftovers for the mid and tweet. Probably driving them into distortion. With 1 amp on the woofer and one on the tweeter you don't have that problem. Just because the woofer distorts doesn't mean the mid or tweeter will because they are on separate paths.

Anyway, I've typed until I'm blue in the face so if you don't get it by now, maybe you will get it in the future or then again, you may never get it. Good luck.

Paul

Paul, you missed a little something here.

Using Scots guide.

Figure 1. Coming from the amp you have both a voltage signal and a current signal.


So in figure 1, you have all the voltage and all the current through a single wire pair being delivered to the speaker.

On to figure 2. While you have the same total load connected to the amp, there are two different paths. So now you have all the volage on both wire pairs, since they are in parallel, but you have two different currents in each wire pair, which is controlled by the properties of each half of the crossover.

-Bruce

[hifitommy]

numerous industry intelligentsia about this who nearly all feel bi-wiring makes an audible improvement in clarity and nearly none of them have had any vested interest in cables.

one day i will conduct my own listening tests and draw my own conclusions. for the here and now i will not endorse nor denigrate biwiring. my spendors support biwiring so it wont be much of a project.

yes i hear differences in cables and greening CDs does make a positive difference. no i dont green my CDs as it is too much of a pain.

[BillyB]

I believe I was in this thread at a much earlier date so I'll try and keep this short.My new Quad 22L's owners manual highly recommends Bi-wiring their speakers.Their theory is that the woofers need much more power to drive them than the tweeters do so separate leads actually helps equalize the power distribution between the higher and lower frequencies thereby improving sound.Of course they go on to say that bi-amping is the better way to achieve this same goal.I'm not an electrical engineer and there have been a couple of guys on this site who are probably more knowledgable than me that have said there are all sorts of holes in Quads theory.I do know current is directional and even connected to the same source two different wires should reduce the power fluctuation between woofer and tweeter unless the heavier draw of the bass speakers actually creates a reverse current flow which I guess is also possible.(in other words maybe bi-wiring reduces the problem as opposed to solving it)I will simply say that since my previous B&W's were bi-wired with Tara Lab Prism Bi-wires it was a no-brainer to bi-wire the Quads.I connected them both ways playing back the same CD and there was a significant improvement in the sound when bi-wired.I'm not the best when it comes to the technical terms for the differences in sound quality but I do have a good ear and they simply sounded better.They are amazing speakers which isn't hurting things any either.My theory for what it's worth is that it truly must be an individual speaker thing because I'm hard pressed to believe that serious speaker manufacturers put the second set of terminals back there just for marketing purposes or to wow the customer.That's a theory that was thrown around a lot on this thread.Sorry as I got long winded after promising not too.

[Dusty Chalk]

I do know current is directional...

DC current is directional; AC current flows both ways.

...in other words maybe bi-wiring reduces the problem as opposed to solving it...

Most likely.

they go on to say that bi-amping is the better way to achieve this...

With good reason. I have a pair of internally biamped (I.E. powered) 12Ls, and even those little guys benefit.

[Carl Reid]

My theory for what it's worth is that it truly must be an individual speaker thing because I'm hard pressed to believe that serious speaker manufacturers put the second set of terminals back there just for marketing purposes or to wow the customer.That's a theory that was thrown around a lot on this thread.

The idea that bi-wiring effects or lack there of are due to individual speaker differences is intriguing.... Too bad I don't have any extra speakers lying around to conduct that experiment with...

As for your belief that serious speaker manufacturers must have a legitimate reason for putting the second pair of binding posts on their designs.... well.... I wouldn't be sure about that one if I was you... Dual Binding posts is practically an industry standard at this stage.... So it's not as if serious speaker companies have to justify having them... HOWEVER.... if a serious speaker company does not have them, then they have to be able to justify to the market, why the chose not to include dual posts... which will likely mean insulting and losing the business of any hardcore bi-ampers/bi-wirers/bi-curious consumers...

So rather than thinking that serious manufactures include the posts because they really believe in bi-wiring, you could just as readily conclude that they are just afraid to lose market share (which is not quite the same as trying to scam customers)...

Interstingly, I've been to several mid to high-end audio stores in the last few months auditioning speakers and was intrigued by the fact that none of them actually had their speakers bi-wired or bi-amped in their listening rooms.... Despite the fact that all the speakers (with the exception of Dynaudio) had dual binding posts...

[Geoffcin]

Is that bi-wiring produces twice the contact area for your cable's connectors. It seems to me that the connection is the weakest link in the chain.

[BillyB]

[QUOTE=Carl Reid]The idea that bi-wiring effects or lack there of are due to individual speaker differences is intriguing.... Too bad I don't have any extra speakers lying around to conduct that experiment with...

As for your belief that serious speaker manufacturers must have a legitimate reason for putting the second pair of binding posts on their designs.... well.... I wouldn't be sure about that one if I was you... Dual Binding posts is practically an industry standard at this stage.... So it's not as if serious speaker companies have to justify having them... HOWEVER.... if a serious speaker company does not have them, then they have to be able to justify to the market, why the chose not to include dual posts... which will likely mean insulting and losing the business of any hardcore bi-ampers/bi-wirers/bi-curious consumers...

So rather than thinking that serious manufactures include the posts because they really believe in bi-wiring, you could just as readily conclude that they are just afraid to lose market share (which is not quite the same as trying to scam customers)...

Interstingly, I've been to several mid to high-end audio stores in the last few months auditioning speakers and was intrigued by the fact that none of them actually had their speakers bi-wired or bi-amped in their listening rooms.... Despite the fact that all the speakers (with the exception of Dynaudio) had dual binding posts...[/QUOTE

You may be right about the marketing part as maybe I'm being naive in thinking the really good speaker companies are so dedicated to their craft they wouldn't needlessly put them there for show.Still unsure on that one.I have noticed the same thing in regard to High end audio shops not having their demo speakers bi-wired.That could easily be about the extra labor and cable cost in running dedicated bi-wiring to all or most of their demos.I'm not positive but wouldn't true bi-amping create all sorts of source and connection issues with their amps,unless their mixing board was literally designed to handle that. If they're not bi-wired they can always sell you on the idea that things can only sound better not worse if you take it to the next level with bi-wiring.(even if they do or don't believe it will make a big difference)Not looking to just be contrary by the way as I figure we're just kicking this subject around a bit and that is how I've learned some neat stuff on this site.