"The Truth in Audio" -- according to www.commonsenseaudio.com

[musicoverall]

[QUOTE=theaudiohobby How much more life-like can tube amplifiers be if the audience was unable to distinguish a recording from an actual performance , and the power amps for the playback in this case were solid state .[/QUOTE]

I wasn't there so I can't answer. There are too many unknowns. I also have no idea how a different set of cables can sound different from another. I can only comment on my own experiences rather than relay a set of absolute truths.

I find it interesting that this thread is about the "truth" in audio and there are so many different "truths" posted, nearly one different "truth" per post. That must be what makes this hobby so much fun - each of us pursuing our own sonic and musical truths.

[Monstrous Mike]

I find it interesting that this thread is about the "truth" in audio and there are so many different "truths" posted, nearly one different "truth" per post. That must be what makes this hobby so much fun - each of us pursuing our own sonic and musical truths.

The most interesting thing in this post and others is that we haven't even gone past step number one, "The Big Truth". And that one is: "Does cable A perform audibly differently than cable B?"

Once that truth is known, then we can argue to our hearts content which one sounds better, whether the price difference is worth it, which systems enhance or diminish the difference, etc.

Until then, audio cables fall into the same category as all the other products that have no scientific proof nor professional backing and rely only on "testamonials" for market penetration. And that's a truth whether we like it or not.

If you ask me, a lot of people are in so deep whether it is money invested or statements claimed in public that they cannot turn back. Very few audiophiles have gone from believing in cable sonics to dismissing that belief and it is my opinion that the reason for that has more to due with human nature than any "truth".

[musicoverall]

The most interesting thing in this post and others is that we haven't even gone past step number one, "The Big Truth". And that one is: "Does cable A perform audibly differently than cable B?"

Once that truth is known, then we can argue to our hearts content which one sounds better, whether the price difference is worth it, which systems enhance or diminish the difference, etc.

Until then, audio cables fall into the same category as all the other products that have no scientific proof nor professional backing and rely only on "testamonials" for market penetration. And that's a truth whether we like it or not.

If you ask me, a lot of people are in so deep whether it is money invested or statements claimed in public that they cannot turn back. Very few audiophiles have gone from believing in cable sonics to dismissing that belief and it is my opinion that the reason for that has more to due with human nature than any "truth".

As I mentioned to another poster with a smiliar point of view, you and I disagree on the subject of cable sonics. I have no problem with that. Why does it seem to bother you so?
Why do you argue a subject that by your own admission is inconsequential to the point of invisibility? Just curious.

[magictooth]

As I mentioned to another poster with a smiliar point of view, you and I disagree on the subject of cable sonics. I have no problem with that. Why does it seem to bother you so?
Why do you argue a subject that by your own admission is inconsequential to the point of invisibility? Just curious.

The reason why people argue about points like these is that some people hate the promotion and promulgation of false information. Take, for example, the promotion of some beliefs by a certain population: the belief is that by legalizing same sex marriage that society is encouraging and enticing the youth of today into a homosexual lifestyle. Repeated enough times in print and by talking heads, you'd almost think that belief to be true. I realize that a short audio post isn't enough to even remotely convey all that there is about this subject, but I think that you get the idea.

Cable yeasayers have been saying for the longest time that they can hear differences in quality of cables but have yet to demonstrate this ability with a blind test. I will hold one truth to be paramount in the world of audio. When comparing two separate pieces of gear whether they be cables, amps, or whatnot, without a blind test the results are merely useless and trite anecdotes. I know FOR FACT that the human mind can be tricked easily by the mere mention or sight of label. There is no mystique about the audio industry that can mitigate this TRUTH. I've posted several times before to E-Stat how without blind testing, unbiased determinations of whether one piece of gear is better than another ARE IMPOSSIBLE.

There is an easy suggestion once made by markw to test cables or wire or power cords. He had a friend come over every day. This friend would either change the cables or would leave them alone. markw then tried to be able to discern whether any difference could be heard. He couldn't. I tried a similar blind test with my wife where she switched inputs for me. I listened and couldn't tell any difference. Before the test I would have sworn to you that I could hear significant difference between the cables, but afterwards I was extremely surprised at the results.

Why don't you try the above suggestion and come back and let us know what the results are?

[theaudiohobby]

I've posted several times before to E-Stat how without blind testing, unbiased determinations of whether one piece of gear is better than another ARE IMPOSSIBLE.

whao...from one extreme to another.. , where shall the twain meet ?

[magictooth]

whao...from one extreme to another.. , where shall the twain meet ?

I know what you're getting at, but I will stand by my position that sighted = bias = not accurate. From my personal experiences dealing with patients every working day, I will hold this to be a 100% incontrovertible truth. The twain shall meet if ever there is somebody who can demonstrate in a blind test the ability to determine which cable is playing with any sort of statistical significance. Like I said in a different post, I was a believer in cables and other whatnots until I did my own surprising blind test. It's amazing how your own mind can play such tricks on you.

[theaudiohobby]

I know what you're getting at, but I will stand by my position that sighted = bias = not accurate. From my personal experiences dealing with patients every working day, I will hold this to be a 100% incontrovertible truth. The twain shall meet if ever there is somebody who can demonstrate in a blind test the ability to determine which cable is playing with any sort of statistical significance.

For cables yes, but when you start discussing loudspeakers, sources and amplifiers, a blind test is not necessary. Though I agree that blind-testing largely eliminates.the imaginary "subtle" differences that many audiophiles proclaim.

[musicoverall]

The reason why people argue about points like these is that some people hate the promotion and promulgation of false information. Take, for example, the promotion of some beliefs by a certain population: the belief is that by legalizing same sex marriage that society is encouraging and enticing the youth of today into a homosexual lifestyle. Repeated enough times in print and by talking heads, you'd almost think that belief to be true. I realize that a short audio post isn't enough to even remotely convey all that there is about this subject, but I think that you get the idea.

Cable yeasayers have been saying for the longest time that they can hear differences in quality of cables but have yet to demonstrate this ability with a blind test. I will hold one truth to be paramount in the world of audio. When comparing two separate pieces of gear whether they be cables, amps, or whatnot, without a blind test the results are merely useless and trite anecdotes. I know FOR FACT that the human mind can be tricked easily by the mere mention or sight of label. There is no mystique about the audio industry that can mitigate this TRUTH. I've posted several times before to E-Stat how without blind testing, unbiased determinations of whether one piece of gear is better than another ARE IMPOSSIBLE.

There is an easy suggestion once made by markw to test cables or wire or power cords. He had a friend come over every day. This friend would either change the cables or would leave them alone. markw then tried to be able to discern whether any difference could be heard. He couldn't. I tried a similar blind test with my wife where she switched inputs for me. I listened and couldn't tell any difference. Before the test I would have sworn to you that I could hear significant difference between the cables, but afterwards I was extremely surprised at the results.

Why don't you try the above suggestion and come back and let us know what the results are?

Sorry, but I don't know the trick of putting quotes in those cool brackets in order to make each of my points coincide with each of yours. So I apologize if my reply is tougher to follow than I'd like.

The promotion and promulgation of false information is indeed disconcerting. How do you know the varying sounds of cables is false information? Because you and a few others tried it once and failed? Sorry, there are too many variables in your tests that aren't necessarily replicated with every other person in the world.

The human mind most likely can be tricked. So you're suggesting that it's tricked each and every time on every single individual??? That is too outrageous. What you're asking me to believe is that no one can ever trust their own senses.

I do not and cannot suggest that cable sonics are true for every individual. I can only report what I hear, personally. If others do not hear the same thing, I have no problem with that. I'm not sure why the opposite should be a problem for you.

As for blind testing, let me just ask you a few questions. Do you perform blind tests on peanut butters? Colas? Fabric softeners? Dog barks? Flower smells? Anything regarding your sensory perceptions? Why or why not? When do you trust your senses and when do you not? That's not to say that I won't try your experiment. But I'm curious as to what you will say if I pass with flying colors! You will likely blame something about the test, will you not? And yet, you'd like me to trust it completely!

[theaudiohobby]

folks,

I re-installed my manufacturer upgraded speakers back into my system this afternoon, fullrange floorstanders, I feel it is necessary to reiterate what woodman said earlier, we are within a few whiskers of perfection . The SS vs Tubes debate, digital vs. analog are red herrings , the technology to recreate accurate sound (wrt to live) is alive and well and available to buy to those interested.

[woodman]

[/i]The promotion and promulgation of false information is indeed disconcerting. How do you know the varying sounds of cables is false information?

Simply because no one has ever been able to demonstrate when "blind" that the premise has any validity to it at all - that's how one can know. This is not to say that there is positively, absolutely no sonic difference whatsoever between different cables ... only that whatever differences that might exist are likely to be so minimal - so subtle - so inconsequential - that being able to detect them in a "blind test" is all but impossible.

The human mind most likely can be tricked. So you're suggesting that it's tricked each and every time on every single individual??? That is too outrageous. What you're asking me to believe is that no one can ever trust their own senses.

Yes, I not only "suggest" it, I will go so far as to state it as an incontrovertible FACT that what our 5 senses provide us are under the direct influence and control of the Attitudes and Beliefs that an individual holds. Of course you can "trust" your senses ... to provide you with a sensory perception - but, you cannot trust any of your senses to also tell you what is true and "real" and what is only an illusion. An illusion that you yourself are responsible for the creation of.

I do not and cannot suggest that cable sonics are true for every individual. I can only report what I hear, personally.

Why not? If the phenomenon of "cable sonics" were indeed "real", how does it stand to reason that only a small minority of humans are able to detect them? And when those that report "hearing" such things can only do so when "sighted" listening is involved, and when listening "blind" they fail to be able to "hear" quite as clearly, doesn't that raise a warning flag of suspicion up the ol' flagpole?

As for blind testing, let me just ask you a few questions. Do you perform blind tests on peanut butters?

No, not unless someone was trying to sell me a jar of peanut butter for $200 with the promise that it would enrich my life in countless ways and make me cherish the day that I discovered such a wonderful product ... then, I might. Then again, on second thought, I'd probably just grab a shotgun and chase his unscrupulous BS ass out of my house!

[musicoverall]

Simply because no one has ever been able to demonstrate when "blind" that the premise has any validity to it at all - that's how one can know. This is not to say that there is positively, absolutely no sonic difference whatsoever between different cables ... only that whatever differences that might exist are likely to be so minimal - so subtle - so inconsequential - that being able to detect them in a "blind test" is all but impossible.



Yes, I not only "suggest" it, I will go so far as to state it as an incontrovertible FACT that what our 5 senses provide us are under the direct influence and control of the Attitudes and Beliefs that an individual holds. Of course you can "trust" your senses ... to provide you with a sensory perception - but, you cannot trust any of your senses to also tell you what is true and "real" and what is only an illusion. An illusion that you yourself are responsible for the creation of.



Why not? If the phenomenon of "cable sonics" were indeed "real", how does it stand to reason that only a small minority of humans are able to detect them? And when those that report "hearing" such things can only do so when "sighted" listening is involved, and when listening "blind" they fail to be able to "hear" quite as clearly, doesn't that raise a warning flag of suspicion up the ol' flagpole?



No, not unless someone was trying to sell me a jar of peanut butter for $200 with the promise that it would enrich my life in countless ways and make me cherish the day that I discovered such a wonderful product ... then, I might. Then again, on second thought, I'd probably just grab a shotgun and chase his unscrupulous BS ass out of my house!

As usual, your post makes a lot of sense - a LOT of sense. However, if I might...

I pulled out one of my CD's without looking at it, one of the new CD's I just bought. I'm quite certain it's David Shea, a "new music" (classical, I guess) composer. My hearing tells me it is indeed Mr Shea. In fact, I'm so comfortable with that fact that I don't even need to look at the jewel case. But I will anyway... lo and behold, it IS David Shea!!!!! My senses score again! No blind tests needed.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else that cables will enrich your life and fill you with joy. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything!!!! All I can say is that different cables sound different to me... not all of them, but some of them. To my ears - mine alone. If that makes it an illusion... well... it's an "illusion" that makes me just as happy as Skippy peanut butter, Diet Pepsi and the smell of leaves in the fall, all perhaps illusions as well.

So now that leaves me with just one question... how good of a shot are you with that shotgun???

[risabet]

Simply because no one has ever been able to demonstrate when "blind" that the premise has any validity to it at all - that's how one can know. This is not to say that there is positively, absolutely no sonic difference whatsoever between different cables ... only that whatever differences that might exist are likely to be so minimal - so subtle - so inconsequential - that being able to detect them in a "blind test" is all but impossible.



Yes, I not only "suggest" it, I will go so far as to state it as an incontrovertible FACT that what our 5 senses provide us are under the direct influence and control of the Attitudes and Beliefs that an individual holds. Of course you can "trust" your senses ... to provide you with a sensory perception - but, you cannot trust any of your senses to also tell you what is true and "real" and what is only an illusion. An illusion that you yourself are responsible for the creation of.



Why not? If the phenomenon of "cable sonics" were indeed "real", how does it stand to reason that only a small minority of humans are able to detect them? And when those that report "hearing" such things can only do so when "sighted" listening is involved, and when listening "blind" they fail to be able to "hear" quite as clearly, doesn't that raise a warning flag of suspicion up the ol' flagpole?



No, not unless someone was trying to sell me a jar of peanut butter for $200 with the promise that it would enrich my life in countless ways and make me cherish the day that I discovered such a wonderful product ... then, I might. Then again, on second thought, I'd probably just grab a shotgun and chase his unscrupulous BS ass out of my house!

Point 1. No one! Unless you have read all of the related literature on this topic you don't know that no one has been able to demonstrate the premise. The subtlety of cable differences may be trivial to you but many of us find just those subtleties to be at the heart of music reproduction.

Point 2. True enough, as far as this goes, we have all seen example of optical illusions, but how many of us have had taste illusions etc.

Point 3. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Only a handful of people have a deep understanding of Einstein's Relativity equations but they describe the world pretty well. Because only a small minority understand them would you indict the equations?

The problem with absolute statements is that our experience is limited in both time and space, thus we can not justify making comments that are opinions sound like facts. Ours is a subjective hobby.

[magictooth]

The human mind most likely can be tricked. So you're suggesting that it's tricked each and every time on every single individual??? That is too outrageous.

But I'm curious as to what you will say if I pass with flying colors! You will likely blame something about the test, will you not? And yet, you'd like me to trust it completely!

The human mind can be tricked almost every time. Whenever you add bias via sight, there is reason enough right there. There is not a single scientific journal that would accept sighted testing as a valid methodology.

Should you pass, then you will be amongst the first (if not the first human ever) to pass a blind cable test. People no doubt will ask about your methodology should you pass, and I would personally be interested in finding out your methodology. I think in fact that there is an outstanding award in the $20K range if you can repeat your success for somebody. Maybe there's another member who could point you in that direction.

[Monstrous Mike]

Why do you argue a subject that by your own admission is inconsequential to the point of invisibility? Just curious.

Two reasons. Arguing in a civilized manner is stimulating. And even though audio cables is a benign subject, I have come across lots of interesting information during these discussions.

Secondly, I believe that issue of cable sonics can be applied to a much broader spectrum of life. The thought process we use to evaluate and choose and determine preference, etc. in audio is applicable to much more than audio.

As I have mentioned in the past, people still believe in things like toiled water going down a certain way in the Northern Hemisphere or that raindrops are tear-shaped or that the Great Wall of China is the only man-made object seen from space.

Other topics along these lines are people that believe that man did not go to the moon. I really get a kick out of the complete dismissal of the overwhelming evidence that they did not to mention that thinking a government could pull that off is really quite incredulous.

The bottom line: I think people can do a better job of thinking about things, being a little more skeptical, asking more questions, verifying stories and myths and in general being independent rather than sheep.

[E-Stat]

The most interesting thing in this post and others is that we haven't even gone past step number one, "The Big Truth".

Indeed. The author of the article referenced merely presents his preferences for system weighting for which there is no single truth.

rw

[theaudiohobby]

I find it interesting that this thread is about the "truth" in audio and there are so many different "truths" posted, nearly one different "truth" per post.

Not many "truths", but a lot of opinions though

[musicoverall]

Not many "truths", but a lot of opinions though

My opinion IS the truth! LOL!

You're right, of course. I shall herewith take my opinions on cables where they belong - to the Cable board. I have no lab results to share.