Replacing power A/C cables on power amps

[Rycher]

I've heard all the debates about cables before - more than I care to remember. If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere.

I'm the kind of guy who believes that every link in the chain will make a difference in what you eventually see and hear. Any individual change will probably be a small and minute change, but in the end, if everything in the chain is top notch, then so will your audio and video.

With that in mind I'm looking to see if anyone has had any experience with replacing the cheap "lamp-cord" 18 guage A/C cables of some equipment (namely power amplifiers) with higher quality cables like those from Monster Cable, or even a heavy duty extension cord. My amplifiers are big, powerful DENON monoblocks, but why the decided to attach a 16 guage lamp cord for power is beyond me. I'm thinking of upgrading it (I'll do it anyway, I just want opinions, thoughts, and comments) to one from Monster Cable like the model 300 or 400. Why MC? I know they're expensive and have high mark-ups, but I like their styling and since these cords are visible in my system, a "pretty" cable is prefferred. But I also want a high quality cable too. Anyone have any experience with these MC power cables?

[woodman]

Let me get this straight here ... what you're saying is "... my mind's made up - don't try to confuse me with facts". Correct? Well then, I guess there's not much point in my trying to un-confuse you, so I won't. But, when you say that "I'm the kind of guy who believes that every link in the chain will make a difference in what you eventually see and hear" - you must be made aware of the basic electronic truth that the A-C power cord for any electronic component or device is not "in the chain" at all. So, ...

... if you like the appearance of some expensive power cord, and think that it makes your system look more "serious" and/or attractive in some way - and you have excess cash just lying around that you're anxious to get rid of, then fine - go for it.

... but, if you're expecting some sonic improvement - FUGGITABOUDIT.

[cam]

And while you are replacing your power cord with a big beefy good looking monter cable product, you mine aswell rip down all your drywall and replace and expose all your wire right to your fuse box. Use some real good looking wire so you can impress everybody that comes over.

[Rycher]

I know, I know. Probably like 90% of the publics consensus' is that power cables - or should I say ALL cables - don't make a difference. Believe me, I've heard all sorts of theories, read tests, and seen graphs, etc. But I guess if someone is convinced it will do no good, then chances are they will hear nothing. But at the same time, being as I have a Baechlor's degree in electronics, I am fully aware of the effects of current on electronics. For instance: no electrician will wire a home with 18 guage romex. Why? Because it can't deliver the current. On that same thought, the connection does not end at the wall plug, it ends at the equipments circuit board. A smaller diameter cable will restrict, to a degree, the current being fed to the electronics. Granted it may only be a small amount of restriction, but in keeping with the logic that every link in the chain is important, should'nt we treat cables with the same regard as components? If a component, say a video source, is designed to operate at it's specification at 120 volts AC, what happens when the voltage drops below that point? Well, we all know what happens - picture blooming, high pitched whine on bright scenes. Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result.

So in not restricting A/C current at the plug, but delivering it in abundance to the components, you will keep the components working in tip-top shape, thus performing at their peak. It seems almost every recording studio knows the importance of high quality cables because they all use them. Where as the audiophile world seems to always reject them. I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect). But regardless, yeah, you're right. My mind is made up. I will be swapping them out. I am just looking for opinions from people who have done this before. And on a different note. why does everyone get all huffy-puffy when someone talks about "prettying-up" their cables? We spend hundreds of dollars on racks, and cabinetry, we add lights to show off the equipment, we decorate a room to make full use of the visual impact of the components. But why, when one talks about cables, does the conversation turn into a feeding frenzy for flaming? Part of being an audiophile is not just experimenting with different components to achieve a higher level, but also with the cables, and speaker wires, and racks, and shelves, and so on. I'm just curious because in most other boards people have been "banished" just for bringing up a question like this.

Please let's keep this civil and open-minded. Thanks

[markw]

...where never is heard a discouraging word. You post some interesting statements that are hard to argue with on a subjective basis.

"If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere."

Yep you're in the right place. Reinforcment is what you will get. Any disagreement would involve a little technical discussion and that is not allowed here. If you are really interested in both sides, then you might want to pose this query in the Audio Lab, where both sides can be aired without fear of reprisal.

For convience sake, I'll repost this (and a link to it here) in that forum should you choose to explore that route.

"But I guess if someone is convinced it will do no good, then chances are they will hear nothing."

Please be aware that this just may be the sharpest double edged sword in the arsenal. Handle it with extreme caution.

"Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result."

Again, this is a statement of a technical nature. The logical response to this would involve one simple sentence but that is not allowed in this forum. Although it seems to support your wishes for better sound, you might get some serious, well thought out rebuttals from experienced techies on the previously mentioned forum.

To attempt to use technical terms w/o fear of technical rebuttal is to simply use this forum as a bully pulpit. Now, wether or not that is the intenet here is still under evaluation.

"And on a different note. why does everyone get all huffy-puffy when someone talks about "prettying-up" their cables?"

Nobody gets huffy about "prettying-up" cables. Eyebrows are raised, however, when it's implied that it makes an audiable difference which may or may not be the case. See the next paragraph for more on this subject. Again, for serious rebuttals, please post this in the Audio Lab where any differing opinions are not hobbled by the rules here.

"Part of being an audiophile is not just experimenting with different components to achieve a higher level, but also with the cables, and speaker wires, and racks, and shelves, and so on."

Actually, on the whole I agree with statement save for one word. "Experimenting", which implies some sort of controls when testing to either prove or disprove a theory. Now, if casual listening is all it takes for you then that's fine, but to call it an experiment is a misnomer.

"I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect)."

Beliefs are a good thing. Attempting to see if these beliefs are valid would take some experimentation, and this was covered in the previous paragraph. But, be aware that many other people here have some serious schooling as well and quite a few years of experience in the fiield as well. Many have opinions that you might not agree with. If you wish to share your beliefs with thei knowledge and experience, try that other forum. If not, you are merely preaching to the choir.

But, I think the most telling statement is from your second post.

"I know they're expensive and have high mark-ups, but I like their styling and since these cords are visible in my system, a "pretty" cable is prefferred. "

...I most certainly can't and won't argue with that.

I you want unquestioning approval of your statements and reinforcement of your beliefs with no dissenting opinions, then either this forum or http://audioasylum.com will serve you well.

If you want serious discussion, try the Audio Lab or perhaps other forums such as http://www.audioholics.com.

As promised, here's the link to this response in the Audio Lab.
http://forums.audioreview.com/showth...0090#post50090

...enjoy

[woodman]

But at the same time, being as I have a Baechlor's degree in electronics ...

Sorry fella, but this statement smacks of misrepresentation to put it mildly but succinctly. If you indeed had such a degree, you would not make some of the ridiculous statements that you did in this latest post. None of which have any basis in electronic facts as I've come to know them, having been working in the field for better than 60 years.

... and finally:

Please let's keep this civil and open-minded. Thanks

Civility is good ... open-mindedness is good as well. But it would appear that your mind is quite closed (and erroneously so) on the subject of AC power cords.

[Rycher]

In response to Woodman: This was just the type of response I wanted to avoid. I asked a decent, civil, and legitamate question and recieved insult from you. I wanted a discussion about these cables from people who may have actually used them. It seems I will get no discussion here. Let's just close this thread.

[cam]

Hey Rycher, I was just playing with you. If your cables are visible then go for some good looking cables. Myself, my cables are out of site as best as I could get them out of site. To me, my components are on display, not my cables. Just how do you have your system set up where your power cords are so visible. My last house I did not have a plug-in in a good spot so I got my electrician buddy to install one where I could hook-up everything directly behind my system. To me, if you have speaker cables and power cords visible, that just doesn't give it that finished (quality) look.

[Rycher]

Hey Rycher, I was just playing with you. If your cables are visible then go for some good looking cables. Myself, my cables are out of site as best as I could get them out of site. To me, my components are on display, not my cables. Just how do you have your system set up where your power cords are so visible. My last house I did not have a plug-in in a good spot so I got my electrician buddy to install one where I could hook-up everything directly behind my system. To me, if you have speaker cables and power cords visible, that just doesn't give it that finished (quality) look.

Hey Cam, thanks for the honest reply. Actually, my components are in a wood tower type of furniture. None of the equipment sits right up to the back wall, including the speakers. When someone walks by, or up to look at the equipment, they can"peak around" very easily to see the rear. I have seen some do-it-yourself projects where you can dress up the speaker cables real inexpensively and make them look like they cost several hundred dollars. I'll take that route for the speaker cables. But for the power amps A/C cable, I really do believe that changing out the small lamp-cord power wire to something a little more beefier will help. After all, the house wireing is 12 guage solid conductor romex. I feel that to transfer everything that ends at the wall plug, the power cord should at least be of the same gauge - don't ya think? I could just as well use a heavy duty extension cord, cut the cable in half, and solder that to the amps circuit board. But my amps are pretty nice, I figured I 'd not take the cheesey way out and just jump in for the ride. I know it's an expense, but oh well, that's half the fun, i guess. I'll let you guys know if there really is a difference. I'm guessing the difference will be in power dilivery - maybe while watching a movie. Still, has anyone have any experience doing this?

[FLZapped]

I've heard all the debates about cables before - more than I care to remember. If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere.

No, I think I'll post right here.

I'm the kind of guy who believes that every link in the chain will make a difference in what you eventually see and hear.

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

With that in mind I'm looking to see if anyone has had any experience with replacing the cheap "lamp-cord" 18 guage A/C cables of some equipment (namely power amplifiers) with higher quality cables like those from Monster Cable, or even a heavy duty extension cord. My amplifiers are big, powerful DENON monoblocks, but why the decided to attach a 16 guage lamp cord for power is beyond me. I'm thinking of upgrading it (I'll do it anyway, I just want opinions, thoughts, and comments) to one from Monster Cable like the model 300 or 400. Why MC? I know they're expensive and have high mark-ups, but I like their styling and since these cords are visible in my system, a "pretty" cable is prefferred. But I also want a high quality cable too. Anyone have any experience with these MC power cables?

Gee, had you started with this paragraph and dispensed with the hyperbole, you might have gotten a better responce.

-Bruce
(In a marathon with Frances)

[Tony_Montana]

Hi Rycher

You said that you want to replace your 16 gauge wire on the Denon, because it does not deliver current in "abundance" to the component.

Since you said you have a degree in electronics, lets do some calculations.

16 gauge wire have 4.2 ohm resistance/1000feet which comes to about .004 ohm/foot. So for 6 feet of [16 gauge] power cord, the resistance will be .02 ohm, and since you have one pair of wires (return current resistance), total resistance will be about .05 ohms

suppose you swap it out with 10 gauge power cord. Total resistance for [a pair] 6 foot length will be 0.012 ohm.

As you can see, the resistance in 16 gauge wire is also non existent...so saying that stock power cord can not deliver current in abundance is not true.

If we go one step further and calculate voltage lose because of wire resistance (since you said voltage difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard), one will note that voltage drop difference between 16 gauge and 10 gauge wire is only 0.4 volts...actually 0.38 volts

Using 10 amp as example (amp is drawing 1000 watt):

For 16 gauge wire:10amp x 0.05 ohms= 0.5 volts
For 10 gauge wire:10amp x 0.012 ohms= 0.12 volts

So as you can see, OEM stock power cord can deliver power to component, and that is going at full 10 amp throttle

[FLZapped]

But at the same time, being as I have a Baechlor's degree in electronics, I am fully aware of the effects of current on electronics. For instance: no electrician will wire a home with 18 guage romex. Why? Because it can't deliver the current.

Wow, what a simplistic explaination, especially for someone who is degreed. Are you not aware of the magnitude of scale difference? To start with, the run in your wall is significantly longer and the total current the wire must deliver in it's circuit requirement is in excess of what your amp is going to require.

Therefore, someone with your education should recognize the obvious differences in the two systems and not make such a mistake in this type of comparison.

On that same thought, the connection does not end at the wall plug, it ends at the equipments circuit board. A smaller diameter cable will restrict, to a degree, the current being fed to the electronics. Granted it may only be a small amount of restriction, but in keeping with the logic that every link in the chain is important, should'nt we treat cables with the same regard as components? If a component, say a video source, is designed to operate at it's specification at 120 volts AC, what happens when the voltage drops below that point? Well, we all know what happens - picture blooming, high pitched whine on bright scenes. Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result.

Of course there will be some restriction, are you saying that the engineers didn't ensure that your product would work within it's specs with the power cord they designed for it? Now since you claim that there is an audible difference, I would like to see all your test data. Being a degreed individual, you are no doubt trained in testing methodology, right?

So in not restricting A/C current at the plug, but delivering it in abundance to the components, you will keep the components working in tip-top shape, thus performing at their peak.

Really, where's your data to support this claim? Can you prove by your implication that your equipment is actually lasting longer as a result?

It seems almost every recording studio knows the importance of high quality cables because they all use them.

All? Really. This I'd REALLY like to see.

Where as the audiophile world seems to always reject them.

Seems you have your facts backward. I can go to any number of audiophile sites and read in many audiophile rags that these crazy claims are made, yet they are all but devoid in the professional publications. You can go to Samash, Sweetwater, Fullcompass, or any number of sites that sell professinal equipment and nowhere will you see aftermarket "performance" power cords for sale.

I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect).

Wait a minute. You say "you believe" because of your schooling in science. I think you need to request a refund, because it is quite obvious you have no rigorous testing to back up your extrordinary claims.

But regardless, yeah, you're right. My mind is made up. I will be swapping them out.

Good for you! I cerainly hope you get many hours of enjoyment from them.

I am just looking for opinions from people who have done this before. And on a different note.

Then why don't you knock off the hyperbole and just get to the point.

why does everyone get all huffy-puffy when someone talks about "prettying-up" their cables?

Probably because of the statements you have made to "pretty-up" your supposed request.
You need to take out the flamebait.

Part of being an audiophile is not just experimenting with different components to achieve a higher level,

That's fine. However, many just make changes on a lark, without any real investigation as to whether or not it will actually make a difference. They check their brains and reasoning at the door. Quite frankly, you seem to be one of them, especially considering the schooling you have touted.

Please let's keep this civil and open-minded. Thanks

Then start with a more civil tone next time and leave the flamebait at home.

-Bruce
(Tired of this damned storm already)

[E-Stat]

With that in mind I'm looking to see if anyone has had any experience with replacing the cheap "lamp-cord" 18 guage A/C cables of some equipment (namely power amplifiers) with higher quality cables like those from Monster Cable, or even a heavy duty extension cord.

Despite your request, I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded. In discussions I've had with Luke Manley and Judd Barber, they provide a basic 16 gauge IEC cord with their amps knowing that many of their customers will upgrade them with better sounding aftermarket ones. My GamuT CD-1 didn't come with a cord at all, although one is provided upon request. I favor JPS Labs cords (AC+ and Digital), have a friend with Kimber Palladians (I'm trying to get him back over to compare those to mine), and Judd Barber likes the Elrods. While I use a Monster HTS1000 on my turntable, I haven't used their dedicated cords.

You should not have trouble locating a dealer who will provide an in home trial with potentially only shipping costs at risk.

rw

[Rycher]

Despite your request, I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded. In discussions I've had with Luke Manley and Judd Barber, they provide a basic 16 gauge IEC cord with their amps knowing that many of their customers will upgrade them with better sounding aftermarket ones. My GamuT CD-1 didn't come with a cord at all, although one is provided upon request. I favor JPS Labs cords (AC+ and Digital), have a friend with Kimber Palladians (I'm trying to get him back over to compare those to mine), and Judd Barber likes the Elrods. While I use a Monster HTS1000 on my turntable, I haven't used their dedicated cords.

You should not have trouble locating a dealer who will provide an in home trial with potentially only shipping costs at risk.

rw

Hello E-stat, thanks for the answer. Yeah, about the "non-experiential theoriticians" jumping in with their unwanted responses, it don't bother me - every group has it's share of losers that no one responds to. I just ignore them, as I'm sure most others here do too. About the JPS Labs cords, how did they change the sound? Was it subtle? My local dealer only carries Monster Cable power cords, so I'll probably` go that route. What other equipment do you have that you've swapped out cords to? Any more suggestions?

Thanks!
t y

[E-Stat]

About the JPS Labs cords, how did they change the sound? Was it subtle?

In general, I find cable upgrades to be a collection of "just noticeable differences". No individual swap in my system has been "dramatic". Collectively, however, I've found the cumulative effect of several JNDs to constitute a decidedly ND. With my system, better cables create a blacker, quieter background from which more detail can be discerned. It's not as though you're going to say "wow" after listening to the first thirty seconds of music. I do find, however, that most of my recordings, even just good ones, will reveal more of their content. Subtle details and harmonic shadings are rendered more evident. A friend of mine brought over a new amp along with a Kimber Palladian cord. The Kimber is a bit unusual looking with a "sausage" attached to the cord. We listened to the amp first with the Kimber and switched to my cords. Then switched back. The Kimber clearly resolved more detail with that amp. That was the most significant difference I've heard with PCs and it had nothing to do with power transfer - the Kimber was actually somewhat thinner at 10 gauge. I've asked him to return on another occasion with a pair of cords to try out on my tube amps.

What other equipment do you have that you've swapped out cords to?

Sources, like CDP, turntable, and preamp. Contrary to the "miles and miles" of wire theory, the source of some RFI induced noise in a system is created by some of the components themselves. I use the filtered Digital JPS Labs cord that suppresses noise going back into the wall circuit. Using a nice Belden sourced 14 gauge cord with Shurter plugs and a Monster HTS-1000 on my turntable, the noise level is now virtually nonexistent even with my low output MC cartridge.

Any more suggestions?

I can also highly recommend room treatments, especially bass traps for smoothing out the low end and improving imaging. There are a few DIY recipes available for the popular and effective ASC product. Also, I noticed that your Amazings are pretty close to the back wall. I find that all bipolars like to "breathe" with more room around and behind them. I have the luxury of placing mine about seven feet into the room.

rw

[Geoffcin]

From his post it was quite clear that he wasn't looking for an argument about cables, just some personal experience from somebody who's replaced them. Still, you guys can't resist tearing into him. From his responses it looks like it doesn't bother him too much so I'm not going to do anything. But, if you take people to task for asking questions on the forum I'm going to moderate it. This forum is for people to be able to ask questions without getting taken to task.

[Rycher]

From his post it was quite clear that he wasn't looking for an argument about cables, just some personal experience from somebody who's replaced them. Still, you guys can't resist tearing into him. From his responses it looks like it doesn't bother him too much so I'm not going to do anything. But, if you take people to task for asking questions on the forum I'm going to moderate it. This forum is for people to be able to ask questions without getting taken to task.

Thanks Geoffcin and E-sTAT, I appreciate the responses. E-Stat, your response was was I was looking for - honest unbiased opionion on cables which you have tried and heard first hand. Thanks again!

Geoffcin, thanks for stepping in. I'll admit I was getting a bit disheartened about posting any more on this board for fear that each one of my posts would be dissected and worded all out of proportion. I know entertainment gear is a passion for many people and can cause heated debates, but debates are just fine as they are the foundation for a forum anyway. But when it turns into a bash and ridicule for asking a question, or because someone doesn't "know" as much as the next guy, etc., well, then most people I'm sure would rather just enjoy their hobby alone rather than post and share. And in the end it's just the forum that suffers because all new potential members will just stay away, or be pushed away. I try to avoid such arrogance from members as much as the next guy, but I am glad when a moderator steps in to pull me from the clutches of these snakes.

Anyway, thanks again. I se this forum is well moderated and I will enjoy my stay here. Thanks for the comments!

[markw]

Sounds like a personal insult to me. Isn't that against one of the forum rules?

Simply put, while you've chosen the blue pill, others should be aware that there is a red pill as well that thay may wish to avail themselves of.

[Rycher]

Sounds like a personal insult to me. Isn't that against one of the forum rules?

Simply put, while you've chosen the blue pill, others should be aware that there is a red pill as well that thay may wish to avail themselves of.

Actually, I didn't chosse a "pill", Morpheus. I asked a question but recieved flack for it. My words were diliberately twisted and taken out of context, as was evidenced by 2 moderators having to step in. If you feel my referral to "snakes" was directed towards you, then maybe you have a complex? Regardless, I recieved my answer from 2 smart, and kind people, so now I will not visit this particular thread again. I wish more people here were just as kind.

[Geoffcin]

Sounds like a personal insult to me. Isn't that against one of the forum rules?

Simply put, while you've chosen the blue pill, others should be aware that there is a red pill as well that thay may wish to avail themselves of.

If it was a personal attack then it would be. I've deleted some of those already, but it was more rhetorical, as in; "save me from this nest of vipers"

In any case nobody wants to see anybody's post get deleted, and if you noticed, no ones has.

[FLZapped]

From his post it was quite clear that he wasn't looking for an argument about cables.....

Bull. I think I pointed it out quite clearly that he was. Touting his superior knowledge becaue he had an "edumacation."

This forum is for people to be able to ask questions without getting taken to task.

People get taken to task when they make ridiculous statements and claims. It was easily avoided on his part before the first keystroke: but he chose not to.

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

Thanks Geoffcin and E-sTAT, I appreciate the responses. E-Stat, your response was was I was looking for - honest unbiased opionion on cables which you have tried and heard first hand.

Unbiased? Every opinion is biased, wouldn't be an opinion otherwise.

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

Despite your request, I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.

HAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA, Now That's Funny!

-Bruce

[markw]

I asked a question but recieved flack for it..

No, you were called to task when you insinuated that your edjumacation gave you an edge on the "facts" in this matter when what you were stating were nowhere near facts. They were beliefs and, as a man of science, you should be expected to know the difference.

No matter, Jim Jones was well schooled in the Good Book but look where that led him and his followers. Now, had some kind soul set him straight earlier, there is no telling what good that charisma might have done.

My words were diliberately twisted and taken out of context, as was evidenced by 2 moderators having to step in. .

No, You threw the gauntlet. Simple as that. The moderaters would rather these things never happened but when you threw out your edjumacation and the psuedo technical stuff to bolster your, errr..., credibility?, it's only fair that it opened the floodgates for those that actually do have education and experience in these matters rebut you, lest some be led astray by fairy tales. To deny that would lead to a one sided religious forum where serious discussion was verbotten.

No, you were merely disabused as to where the real facts involved ran contrary to your theories.

If you feel my referral to "snakes" was directed towards you, then maybe you have a complex?

No, no complex. I've been around long enough to recognize a slap when I feel it. I'm just disappointed that you didn't have the honesty to owe up to it, but, then again....

Regardless, I recieved my answer from 2 smart, and kind people, so now I will not visit this particular thread again. I wish more people here were just as kind..

Actually, you received good answers from many more than two people and ignored the sage advice of another to look for the real truth elsewhere.. You only chose to believe two because they simply agreed with your assumptions.

[Geoffcin]

Bull. I think I pointed it out quite clearly that he was. Touting his superior knowledge becaue he had an "edumacation."



People get taken to task when they make ridiculous statements and claims. It was easily avoided on his part before the first keystroke: but he chose not to.

-Bruce

This is a moderated forum, and we respect other people's point-of-views even if we don't agree with them. It's not your business to take anyone here to task for ANYTHING they post. If you consider it's your business then that can be easily remedied I assure you.
I've had just about enough of this picking peoples posts apart, and I would recommend that you don't do it anymore.