Replacing power A/C cables on power amps

[FLZapped]

This is a moderated forum, and we respect other people's point-of-views even if we don't agree with them.

Right, well, I did disagree with them. I believe I have the right to post an opposing point of view, or ask for clarification of claims made, especially those that fly in the face of known fact. This wouldn't be a forum without opposing points of view.

[quote]
It's not your business to take anyone here to task for ANYTHING they post. If you consider it's your business then that can be easily remedied I assure you.
{/quote]

Go ahead, threaten me. As a moderator, I think you would have been more astute in spotting flamebait when you see it. And as for what is my "business' if I see something I don't agree with, especially when it is made with the attitude of the poster's, or flies in the face of well established fact, I'm going to challenge it and challenge it thoroughly.

I've had just about enough of this picking peoples posts apart, and I would recommend that you don't do it anymore.

I'll do it every time someone comes along with his attitude that he knows more than anyone else or thinks he is the only one with an education here. As I pointed out, he could have left out all the hyperbole and asked his question straight up and not gotten the responses that he did.

What about your fellow moderator and HIS completely unnecessary inflammatory comment:

"I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded."

You guys need to clean up your own doorstep.

I also don't see where you did anything about the posters use of "snakes" when refering to others on this board. In fact, you defended his blatent insult of myself and other on this board.

You're being a bunch of hypocrites, just like Jon Risch, moderator on the Cable Asylum at AA.

-Bruce
(Seriously doubting any of this will be considered.....)

[Geoffcin]

Right, well, I did disagree with them. I believe I have the right to post an opposing point of view, or ask for clarification of claims made, especially those that fly in the face of known fact. This wouldn't be a forum without opposing points of view.


You're being a bunch of hypocrites, just like Jon Risch, moderator on the Cable Asylum at AA.

-Bruce
(Seriously doubting any of this will be considered.....)

No one wants to censor anyone here. A little more civility is all that's required. This thread was attacked from the get-go. You've been on this BB for some time, and I would expect that you also want to be treated with courtesy too, since you've picked out a few instances that bothered you. I want to see that this place is good for ANYONE to post without getting ambushed because of their point of view, no matter how arrogant you think they come across.

My advise is that we end this thread here. It's quite obvious that you have succeeded in chasing away the poster from this thread, let's hope you haven't managed to chase him & others who may have been lurking from the entire AR forums.

[FLZapped]

No one wants to censor anyone here. A little more civility is all that's required. This thread was attacked from the get-go.

Again, you ignore how the thread started, and again, you ignore that I pointed out he could have gotten an entirely different response had he left the hyperbole at home.(others made the same observation)

You've been on this BB for some time, and I would expect that you also want to be treated with courtesy too, since you've picked out a few instances that bothered you. I want to see that this place is good for ANYONE to post without getting ambushed because of their point of view, no matter how arrogant you think they come across.

So far, I have not seen it from this moderating group, there has been an ongoing string of insults hurled at me and others, if not directly, indirectly, and no apologly from those in charge who made them has come forth. Not that it would matter at this point in time.

I'll point out once again, it wasn't just his attitutude, it was his horrendous inaccuracies: and I wasn't the only one to spot them. Then he went on to compound the problem with his condescending; "I have an education" routine, followed by further inacurracies, which a truely educated person in his declared field would not have made.

My advise is that we end this thread here. It's quite obvious that you have succeeded in chasing away the poster from this thread, let's hope you haven't managed to chase him & others who may have been lurking from the entire AR forums.

Or maybe he was just throwing bombs as an antagonist....and you can forget the guilt trip, that won't work either. Besides, it is quite apparent how many of the regulars the new moderators have alienated and chased off already.

-Bruce
(Officer, I'd like to report a hit and run....)

[Rycher]

Actually, I posted a question, plain and simple. There was no "attitude" given, and no "arrogance" was implied. It was nothing but a simple question geared to the people who had experience in the matter at subject. You're first line in your response to my question was an insult and a personal attack on me. "Condencending attitude"? It was quite clear that the only one around here with a condencending attitude is yourself, along with the 2 other village _ _ _ _ _ _ . In fact, you guys could'nt leave well enough alone and had the audacity to go and open a new thread to talk and make fun of MY questions - where you guys called me "poor fool". You say that YOU are mad and were insulted?!? I'm sorry, but I got to differ with you on that one. This was my first posting on this forum, and it will most certainly be the last. It was obvious from the first response fromyou 3 *#$%&@@! that you all conspired to run out the new guy, and you've succeded. I wonder how many more potential forumers you've cleaned up on in the past.

[cam]

Actually, I posted a question, plain and simple. There was no "attitude" given, and no "arrogance" was implied. It was nothing but a simple question geared to the people who had experience in the matter at subject. You're first line in your response to my question was an insult and a personal attack on me. "Condencending attitude"? It was quite clear that the only one around here with a condencending attitude is yourself, along with the 2 other village _ _ _ _ _ _ . In fact, you guys could'nt leave well enough alone and had the audacity to go and open a new thread to talk and make fun of MY questions - where you guys called me "poor fool". You say that YOU are mad and were insulted?!? I'm sorry, but I got to differ with you on that one. This was my first posting on this forum, and it will most certainly be the last. It was obvious from the first response fromyou 3 *#$%&@@! that you all conspired to run out the new guy, and you've succeded. I wonder how many more potential forumers you've cleaned up on in the past.

I don't think anybody is trying to run you off these boards. Take a day to relax, and feel free to ask or answer questions in the furure. As to your original post, I personally have no data to substaniate an answer, but I would honestly think that manufactures have done all the homework on their products to find a suitable and more then adequate power cord for their products. Example, my denon 1804 has a power consumption rating of 4.5 amps. Not a particularily heavy draw on power, hence the very average power cord. My paradigm pw-2200 draws 750 watts or 6.25 amps and it has only a marginally bigger power cord. From all the components that I have seen, as the power requirements of the comopnents increases, so does the size of the power cord. That being said, all manufactures are building an adequate power cord for any given product. But lets say that the denon 5803 has the same size power cord as my 1804. That would be a situation where I would scond guess the engineering of the power cord on the 5803. This is not the case though, the 5803 has a beefy power cord already.

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

... where ever a dissenting word is heard! Leave while you're ahead, nothing here but bullies and the "proveyors of wisdom" spreading their gospel. Even when you ask nicely that you would prefer to limit the discussion to proponents of the product type look what happens. Of course, everyone is free to chime in, even when requested not to, but there's a word for that isn't there. Unless you enjoy this sort of thing I'd suggest taking similiar inquires to another site. Cheers!

MikE

[FLZapped]

Actually, I posted a question, plain and simple. There was no "attitude" given, and no "arrogance" was implied. It was nothing but a simple question geared to the people who had experience in the matter at subject.

This has alrady been covered thoroughly.

This was my first posting on this forum, and it will most certainly be the last. It was obvious from the first response fromyou 3 *#$%&@@! that you all conspired to run out the new guy, and you've succeded. I wonder how many more potential forumers you've cleaned up on in the past.

Right, I see you're still here throwing bombs. I really don't care if you stay or leave, that is wholly your call. However, keep throwing your hyperbolic bombs and you will be challenged.

-Bruce
(beginning to smell a moderators shill......)

[Monstrous Mike]

Despite your request, I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.

rw

The way I see it is that you non-theoretical experimentationalists have observational results that have no control or scientific method and have completely subjective results. And further there is no theory provided to support these results. And this is what you base recommendations on?

Perhaps it's time that you provided some theory to explain your observations. And also, maybe you should look again at the method you use for your experimentation.

No, wait a second. It is the non-theoretical experimentationalists that are demanding that the non-experiential theoriticians come up with the theory to explain their observations. Did I get that right or am I missing something?

[Monstrous Mike]

Granted it may only be a small amount of restriction, but in keeping with the logic that every link in the chain is important, should'nt we treat cables with the same regard as components? If a component, say a video source, is designed to operate at it's specification at 120 volts AC, what happens when the voltage drops below that point? Well, we all know what happens - picture blooming, high pitched whine on bright scenes. Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result.

Please explain how a power cord can solve a fluctuating voltage problem.

[Resident Loser]

...number one, the guy sounds like a red-herring to me...someone who has been scripted, mouthing all the things the mods have claimed the poor little newbies face by posting here...OOO... they chased me away...WAAHH!!!...I'm never comin' back!!! This after he says anyone with a different opinion need not respond...I mean that's just askin' for it...especially when wearing one's ignorance or inexperience on their sleeve.

Nobody knows everything...but certainly there are regular contributors who know one he!! of alot more the this fellow. The guy shows up like he just learned Ohm's Law and makes ridiculous comparisons...The size difference of the line cord conductors is EL Zippo in real terms...once it gets into the power supply it will be rectified and regulated to meet the component designers requirements...period...and BTW, those same designers spec'd out the pc based on those design parameters...

Those IEC cords are, and have been since the outset, a manufacturing economy, pure and simple...it has become another a "cottage industry" catering to an affluent and equally gullible crowd...how else would you account for a mfr. whose name translates into "nothingness"(and puh-leese don't give me the mystical "nothingness" explanation) and uses(or did use) a proprietary substance called "Stardust"?...BTW, hi MikE...

He wants audio jewelry, well, sauszeech his own, I'll settle for nice high-tech, avant-garde, basic black...goes with everything...

And in case inquiring minds want to know, all my gear is vintage...back in the days when wire was wire(come to think of it, it still is!!!) and predates the "world sourcing" era...all fixed cords...

jimHJJ(...as it should be...)

[Resident Loser]

...or do you prefer Lord-E...

How can a power cord that supplies your TTs motor have any effect on the audio loop?

jimHJJ(...just wunnerin'...)

[E-Stat]

The way I see it...

Folks, waddya' say we move the extended discussion to The Lab?

MM, I'll be happy to respond to your thoughts there where that kind of discussion belongs. markw has already opened a thread.

rw

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

"Oh Mr. Static...

---

...or do you prefer Lord-E..."

Jim, you're killing Me!

[ToddB]

Hi Rycher.

First, welcome to AR. I apologize for the shameful reception you received in this thread, but the new administrator and moderators here are in the process of reversing YEARS of a culture on this board where listening is ridiculed, and scientific quantification is held up as the be-all and end-all of the audio experience. Had I visited the board over the last few days and found your thread earlier, I probably would have deleted a number of posts that are in clear violation of the new posting policy. If you can stick with us as we work through this transition, we'd love to have you stay.

Anyway, unlike those in the peanut gallery who attacked your premise without having any personal experience of their own, I HAVE replaced power cords on some of my equipment. So far I've only upgraded from stock cords to Volex 17604 cords, which cost me all of $6 apiece (that's NOT a typo, they were SIX dollars each), but the change was quite beneficial. I didn't hear much of a difference on my integrated amp, but I'm guessing the Volex on my powered sub must have either absorbed a bunch of hash that the sub amp had been injecting back into the power line, or it prevented noise from radiating out of the cord itself, because there were obvious sonic improvements well above the frequency range that the sub operates in. The difference was so startling that I removed the Volex, put the stock cord back in, then swapped them again, doing listening comparisons after each change, just to make sure that I was actually hearing what made absolutely no sense to me at the time. I have since read comments from other people who had similar experiences with reducing noise throughout their system after they replaced the power cord on their sub, so I take it that noisy sub amps aren't that uncommon. The 17604 is 3x14AWG, and I used it because of all the favorable comments it's received at Audio Asylum. So, if you want to try a relatively low-cost upgrade and see how it works for you, before you go and potentially spend a lot more money, this is certainly an available option.

[FLZapped]

Hi Rycher.

First, welcome to AR. I apologize for the shameful reception you received in this thread, but the new administrator and moderators here are in the process of reversing YEARS of a culture on this board where listening is ridiculed, and scientific quantification is held up as the be-all and end-all of the audio experience. Had I visited the board over the last few days and found your thread earlier, I probably would have deleted a number of posts that are in clear violation of the new posting policy. If you can stick with us as we work through this transition, we'd love to have you stay.

Then people like you come along and lob more bombs, as if that is going to make it better, besides the holier than thou attitude the poster demonstrated in his opening posts, which I guess you just can't see, along with the myopic moderators. (yes, I am deliberatly being harsh)

Your characterizations are incorrect. Listening was never ridiculed. Only those who took listening as factual evidence(as opposed to opinion) and tried to pawn it off as such were challenged. Furthermore, on more than one occasion those who take stock in scientific method said if there were any verifiable evidence contrary to their current position, they would have no problem changing their minds, this writer included.

I agree that it wasn't always pretty, but then I doubt the Constitutional Congress was either.....

Anyway, unlike those in the peanut gallery

Ad hominem attacks, hmmm, I guess that makes your post a violation too, no?

...without having any personal experience of their own,

Gross assumption on your part.

I guess it's okay for you experiential types to attack, denegrade, and mischaraterize yet call it your opinoin, but when those of us who have a different viewpoint challenge gross factual mischaraterizations, that is somehow not okay. Lots of hypocricy going on here lately.

But then, considering dissenting points of view are bad for the sponsoring company's business, I can see why there is such an effort to disallow debate, or stuff it away in a corner, hoping no one will notice.

-Bruce
(Sounds like the Democratic Party around here....)

[hertz]

I think most Naysayers are people who have never tried a power cord or conditioner in their system. Although I do not own either of these I have heard some really high end systems setup in dedicated listening rooms which shows a really positive response to these tweaks. I have a group of audiophile friends some whom are using DIY power cords and conditioners.They are made by a very talented and innovative engineer friend.Some of the changes I heard are quiter background, very foccused sound, further refinement highs and tighter lows etc...It makes the experience much more musical. I would not suggest you to try these unless you have a very good listening room with speakers setup accurate to at least quarter of an inch.You won't hear much difference otherwise because you have other big problems like room echo, resonance, bass boom etc..which will mask the changes.

[FLZapped]

I think most Naysayers are people who have never tried a power cord or conditioner in their system. Although I do not own either of these I have heard some really high end systems setup in dedicated listening rooms which shows a really positive response to these tweaks. I have a group of audiophile friends some whom are using DIY power cords and conditioners.They are made by a very talented and innovative engineer friend.Some of the changes I heard are quiter background, very foccused sound, further refinement highs and tighter lows etc...It makes the experience much more musical. I would not suggest you to try these unless you have a very good listening room with speakers setup accurate to at least quarter of an inch.You won't hear much difference otherwise because you have other big problems like room echo, resonance, bass boom etc..which will mask the changes.

Hmmmm, first you make an assumption, then you admit you aren't using what you're praising.....

Okay.

Then you mention a friend makes them. Ohhhhhhh... Now I really wonder why you aren't using them.

It also begs the question as to whether or not you're shilling for this talented friend.

-Bruce
(Only the shadow knows.....)

[hertz]

First of all I am based in india now. I do not represent anybody. I have a group of audiophile friends in my city and I have extensively listened to some of the systems I like. I am not investing in any of those because I will be shifting to my own appartment (staying rented now) and I am planing a dedicated listening room.I know how much difference it makes if you have properly setup system in a good listening room.It is sheer magic. This audiophile engineer friend spend almost an year to find the perfect place for his speakers and the system never ceases to amaze me with its sheer realism. It shocks me sometimes. He makes these in his free time and they are available for a song compared to similar products in the US market.
In his setup I can easily make out diferences with power cords, conditioners, cd players, spk cables, interconnects, isolation platforms etc...It is as clear as day and night. we all know because we all experience it everytime we listen.

[Monstrous Mike]

I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect).

Could you please describe the test method you used to conclude that any difference you heard was directly the cause of the cabling? And how exactly did your understanding of electronics help you with your conclusion?

[Monstrous Mike]

Actually, I posted a question, plain and simple. There was no "attitude" given, and no "arrogance" was implied.

From your first post:

"If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere."

From your second post:

"But at the same time, being as I have a Baechlor's degree in electronics, I am fully aware of the effects of current on electronics. "

Attitude and arrogance given and implied.

Now for some of my own attitude and arrogance. I have Master's of Electrical Engineering and since this is the audio lab and we are here to discuss matters of a technical nature, please feel free to go as in depth as you can with regard to the scientific method you used to determine your cables sounded different and I also presume you have some electronic theory to explain how this could be possible.

[Monstrous Mike]

... where ever a dissenting word is heard! Leave while you're ahead, nothing here but bullies and the "proveyors of wisdom" spreading their gospel. Even when you ask nicely that you would prefer to limit the discussion to proponents of the product type look what happens. Of course, everyone is free to chime in, even when requested not to, but there's a word for that isn't there. Unless you enjoy this sort of thing I'd suggest taking similiar inquires to another site. Cheers!

MikE

Come on, MikE. Go the Outside Asylum and ask a question like: "George W. Bush is our greatest president ever. I''d like to hear all the reasons that this is true. If you don't like Bush, please don't respond." Go ahead, make that post.

And then when the hailstorm hits, your suggestion would be to simply visit a pro-Bush forum where "never a dissenting word is heard" against the bugger. Why do people keep painting us as closed-minded?

[FLZapped]

It is sheer magic.

I see, that explains it. -Bruce

[hertz]

Magic ? Have you experienced it ? I have in some perfectly setup systems. I had almost lost interest in music because of the crappy sound I used to get frim my mass market japanese crap system.I took a U-TURN after I met these guys and experienced first hand what a transparent syetem setup correctly can do. It takes a lot of effort and experimentation to achieve this. Once you acieve this, try changing any component and you will see...)
If you think you can describe sound using some tech sheet, you are mistaken. Most tech sheets are as usefull as toilet paper. I personally know people who have changed amps, cd players, ics, spk cables umpteen times and finally reach that perfect sounding system.It is like a perfect marriage. Some things won't mate with the other even if the tech sheet says so.It will work but the sound won't be satisfying.
Could you please describe your system and tell me how you have setup your system ? What parameters did you take into consideration when you setup the system etc...

[FLZapped]

Magic ? Have you experienced it ?

What difference does it make, I can't possibly transfer my experience to you. What works for me may be replulsive to you, and vice versa.

Having said that, plus the fact this IS the cable forum. No one in the history of the world has verifiably heard the difference between two like cables. So in this instance, it is a non-factor.


-Bruce

[hertz]

I replaced my 12 guage mass market OFC cable with a kimber 4PR cable on the advice of a good friend because I had a slightly dull sound when I play most audiophile grade recordings.The change is so vast that I don't touch my tone controls now when I play those recordings.