AC Power thread from Cable Asylum.

[markw]

...where never is heard a discouraging word. You post some interesting statements that are hard to argue with on a subjective basis.

For those just tuning in, this is a response to this post/question in the cable asylum, err.. forum. http://forums.audioreview.com/showth...0085#post50085

"If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere."

Yep you're in the right place. Reinforcment is what you will get. Any disagreement would involve a little technical discussion and that is not allowed here. If you are really interested in both sides, then you might want to pose this query in the Audio Lab, where both sides can be aired without fear of reprisal.

For convience sake, I'll repost this (and a link to it here) in that forum should you choose to explore that route.

"But I guess if someone is convinced it will do no good, then chances are they will hear nothing."

Please be aware that this just may be the sharpest double edged sword in the arsenal. Handle it with extreme caution.

"Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result."

Again, this is a statement of a technical nature. The logical response to this would involve one simple sentence but that is not allowed in this forum. Although it seems to support your wishes for better sound, you might get some serious, well thought out rebuttals from experienced techies on the previously mentioned forum.

To attempt to use technical terms w/o fear of technical rebuttal is to simply use this forum as a bully pulpit. Now, wether or not that is the intenet here is still under evaluation.

"And on a different note. why does everyone get all huffy-puffy when someone talks about "prettying-up" their cables?"

Nobody gets huffy about "prettying-up" cables. Eyebrows are raised, however, when it's implied that it makes an audiable difference which may or may not be the case. See the next paragraph for more on this subject. Again, for serious rebuttals, please post this in the Audio Lab where any differing opinions are not hobbled by the rules here.

"Part of being an audiophile is not just experimenting with different components to achieve a higher level, but also with the cables, and speaker wires, and racks, and shelves, and so on."

Actually, on the whole I agree with statement save for one word. "Experimenting", which implies some sort of controls when testing to either prove or disprove a theory. Now, if casual listening is all it takes for you then that's fine, but to call it an experiment is a misnomer.

"I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect)."

Beliefs are a good thing. Attempting to see if these beliefs are valid would take some experimentation, and this was covered in the previous paragraph. But, be aware that many other people here have some serious schooling as well and quite a few years of experience in the fiield as well. Many have opinions that you might not agree with. If you wish to share your beliefs with thei knowledge and experience, try that other forum. If not, you are merely preaching to the choir.

But, I think the most telling statement is from your second post.

"I know they're expensive and have high mark-ups, but I like their styling and since these cords are visible in my system, a "pretty" cable is prefferred. "

...I most certainly can't and won't argue with that.

I you want unqualified approval of your statements and reinforcements of your beliefs with no dissenting opinions, then either this forum or http://audioasylum.com will serve you well.

If you want serious discussion, try the Audio Lab or perhaps other forums such as http://www.audioholics.com.

...enjoy

[woodman]

Mark:
What cracked me up big time was the poor fool's claim to have an education in electronics including a degree - which he couldn't even spell correctly! What is so freakin' difficult about the word "Batchelor"? It's spelled just like it sounds, but he couldn't muscle up for it.

He really exposed himself with his claim of an electronics education, which was obviously FALSE, since he made so many egregious statements and claims which were totally without any basis in fact. When I challenged him on his "education", he got highly offended - which brings up the old saw ... "methinks that thou doth protest too much" doesn't it?

Sheeeeeeeeesh!!!!!!!

[markw]

It's quite a shame that this guy comes in and spouts all kinds of technical sounding fluff which has (IMNSHO) nothing to do at all with the desired results. And, then puts the cherry on the sundae by claiming to have a degree in electronics. Then, I offer him a chance to expound on his theories here, where "science" and measurments are supposed to be a valid rebuttal to technobabble, which he simply ignores.

It's only fair that, since he's the one that tried to use science to buttress his point and impress those in question, that the mods allowed the rebuttals he was met with. Now, had he just asked the question w/o the window dressing, then I would assume that a simple "red pill" to a response in this forum be provided and should suffice.

That way, those honestly questioning the reasoning would be provided with a suitable discourse and, for those who wish to ignore them, they would still have their "blue pill" and remain ignorant by choice. The lurkers, however, would have a chance to hear the other side of the debate.

The fact that he chose to ignore all the well thought out responses does cause me to question the depth of his education and experience, however. ...but not his belief.


Perhaps there is a chance yet...

[woodman]

... The fact that he chose to ignore all the well thought out responses does cause me to question the depth of his education and experience, however. ...but not his belief.

I don't merely question the "depth of his education and experience" ... I seriously doubt that he's had any such education at all. Otherwise, he'd know better than to be talking such trash as gaining sonic performance by way of a fershlugginer power cord, fer crissakes! He quite obviously hasn't a clue regarding the design of electronic components and devices, and the part that a unit's power supply plays in making the incoming A-C power virtually irrelevant to the performance of the device.

Now, we get "moderators" who'll not only tolerate his brand of nonsense, they're actually giving him the feedback that he seeks. Yikes!

[E-Stat]

Now, we get "moderators" who'll not only tolerate his brand of nonsense, they're actually giving him the feedback that he seeks. Yikes!

A moderator's job is simply to ensure that posts are topical and civil.

As for the "nonsense", I'll ask the same question of you that I asked of Mark. Which aftermarket cords have you tried in your system?

rw

[markw]

A moderator's job is simply to ensure that posts are topical and civil.

As for the "nonsense", I'll ask the same question of you that I asked of Mark. Which aftermarket cords have you tried in your system?

rw

Well, I did replace the cord on my Marantz Model 8 with a thicker cord a few years ago. No appreciable difference.

[FLZapped]

A moderator's job is simply to ensure that posts are topical and civil.

rw

Really, then what's up with this statement:

I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.

Very civil indeed.

Hypocrite.

-Bruce

[E-Stat]

The fact that he chose to ignore all the well thought out responses does cause me to question the depth of his education and experience, however. ...but not his belief.

Just curious as to which aftermarket cords you have tried in your system.

rw

[E-Stat]

What cracked me up big time was the poor fool's claim to have an education in electronics including a degree - which he couldn't even spell correctly! What is so freakin' difficult about the word "Batchelor"?

As opposed, of course, to your misspelling as well.

rw

[E-Stat]

Perhaps it's time that you provided some theory to explain your observations.

According to engineers with whom I've spoken, the main villain targeted by aftermarket cords is noise generated not hundreds of miles away at some power sub station, but hundreds of feet away inside your home by computers, fluorescent light fixtures, refrigerators, digitally controlled appliances, and even inches away by digital sources like CDPs. All of which generate RFI that is transmitted through the power line and ultimately through the audio components. Good electronic components will happily amplify the noise along with the signal.

And also, maybe you should look again at the method you use for your experimentation.

My method? You mean hearing deeper into my music? Discovering subtle details for recordings that I've heard hundreds of times before? Reading a book on EE theory will tell me more about the harmonic structure of a piano? Don't think so.

It is the non-theoretical experimentationalists that are demanding that the non-experiential theoriticians come up with the theory to explain their observations. Did I get that right or am I missing something?

You're missing something. I demand nothing other than for my opinion to be heard and considered. Unlike others, however, I will not step in with my observations if a discussion of audio theory is desired.

Oh Mr. Static...

...or do you prefer Lord-E...

The former is fine.

How can a power cord that supplies your TTs motor have any effect on the audio loop?

Essentially the same answer as above. Perhaps my system is more subject to this effect due to the use of a low output MC cartridge.

As a software developer, when I seek answers to audio related electronics questions, I prefer to consult EEs whose chosen field is not only audio, but those who have been designing and producing high performance equipment for decades. A nice advantage of having known two prominent audio reviewers for over 25 years is that through them, I have met quite a few highly regarded and successful audio engineers. Naturally, you will find quite a range in personalities. On the one hand, you have cautious old-school guys like William Z. Johnson and Jud Barber who simply acknowledge the benefits of using aftermarket cords. Then there are guys like Ole Lund Christensen and Luke Manley who either don't supply a cord at all with their products or fully expect their customers to choose their own.

It's not as if anyone of these engineers make anything with "inferior" power supplies. Ever look at the power supply size of the big Audio Research, VTL, GamuT, or Joule Electra amps? They are measured in hundreds of joules. How about their preamps with likewise massive regulation?

What I really find most enjoyable about being involved in informal discussions or dinners with these guys is that they would really rather talk about music than the gear. That's what it is all about for me, too.

rw

[Monstrous Mike]

According to engineers with whom I've spoken, the main villain targeted by aftermarket cords is noise generated not hundreds of miles away at some power sub station, but hundreds of feet away inside your home by computers, fluorescent light fixtures, refrigerators, digitally controlled appliances, and even inches away by digital sources like CDPs. All of which generate RFI that is transmitted through the power line and ultimately through the audio components. Good electronic components will happily amplify the noise along with the signal.

Print this post out and take it back to your engineer friends.

The only way to make an electronic component power cord able to filter EMI/RFI is to shield it. This will reduce the effect of the cord acting like an antenna. However, there are two problems with this. First, this will only protect against radiated interference and secondly, there is a direct connection with the house wiring so this shielding is essentially useless since the house wiring will act like an antenna and conduct the interference right to the power input on the amp.

The other major form of EMI/RFI is conducted interference which comes from noise on the AC line. Please have them explain how a power cord can filter this type of interference and noise.

This explanation can be in layman's terms or as technical as they want. And if the answer is that these superior cords simply sound better, then you don't really need any engineers at all, do you? No wait, you still need the ones who design these cords but can't explain how they work. Personally, I haven't met an engineer like that yet although hanging around here, I feel I am getting close.

[E-Stat]

The only way to make an electronic component power cord able to filter EMI/RFI is to shield it. This will reduce the effect of the cord acting like an antenna. However, there are two problems with this. First, this will only protect against radiated interference and secondly, there is a direct connection with the house wiring so this shielding is essentially useless since the house wiring will act like an antenna and conduct the interference right to the power input on the amp.

There are a number of shielded cords with built in filter networks at both ends to prevent such "backwash". Perhaps that is sufficient enough for the audible result.

The other major form of EMI/RFI is conducted interference which comes from noise on the AC line. Please have them explain how a power cord can filter this type of interference and noise.

Ditto.

rw

[Tony_Montana]

There are a number of shielded cords with built in filter networks at both ends to prevent such "backwash".

E-stat

To understand the concept of power cord and RF/noise better, you also have to look into what happens after they enter a component. The AC is down stepped, converted to DC and THEN filtered. Since it is much easier and "more" effective to filter DC than AC, then it will be redundant, less effective [and unnecessary] to have filter at the AC end.

Usually power cord shielding is done to prevent it from contaminating other component and wires, not the other way around

[E-Stat]

Usually power cord shielding is done to prevent it from contaminating other component and wires, not the other way around

I think we're saying the same thing. By backwash, I mean sending digital hash from a CDP back through the AC mains.

rw

[FLZapped]

According to engineers with whom I've spoken, the main villain targeted by aftermarket cords is noise generated not hundreds of miles away at some power sub station, but hundreds of feet away inside your home by computers, fluorescent light fixtures, refrigerators, digitally controlled appliances, and even inches away by digital sources like CDPs. All of which generate RFI that is transmitted through the power line and ultimately through the audio components. Good electronic components will happily amplify the noise along with the signal.

Not always, most engineers are smart enough to put broadband filtering in their designs. However, this is a different topic than what the poster was after. Certainly, if you can positively identify a souce of interference causing degradation of your equipment's performance, a proper solution should be sought. If it is a radiated problem, a filtered power cord may not help at all, or be only a portion of the solution.

BTW - you can make a cheap rf choke by sliding a cardboard tube over your powercord and stuffing it tightly with steel wool. The fun part is keeping the cord in the middle of the assembly whilst stuffing away. Then you can cap off the ends and slide the whole assembly up and down the cord to see where it has the most effect.

My method? You mean hearing deeper into my music? Discovering subtle details for recordings that I've heard hundreds of times before? Reading a book on EE theory will tell me more about the harmonic structure of a piano? Don't think so.

No, but a book on acoustic instrument physics might.

-Bruce

[A-Audiophile]

Cable Theory

[Resident Loser]

...you have seen fit to respond to a thread that hasn't been posted to since September of 2004...

Secondly...a link to cable theory as presented by a wire company?...yeah, I'm sure it's not even slightly biased...

jimHJJ(...and just full'O'factoids...)