Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 55
  1. #1
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659

    AC Power thread from Cable Asylum.

    ...where never is heard a discouraging word. You post some interesting statements that are hard to argue with on a subjective basis.

    For those just tuning in, this is a response to this post/question in the cable asylum, err.. forum. http://forums.audioreview.com/showth...0085#post50085

    "If you are of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, please post elsewhere."

    Yep you're in the right place. Reinforcment is what you will get. Any disagreement would involve a little technical discussion and that is not allowed here. If you are really interested in both sides, then you might want to pose this query in the Audio Lab, where both sides can be aired without fear of reprisal.

    For convience sake, I'll repost this (and a link to it here) in that forum should you choose to explore that route.

    "But I guess if someone is convinced it will do no good, then chances are they will hear nothing."

    Please be aware that this just may be the sharpest double edged sword in the arsenal. Handle it with extreme caution.

    "Sure, equipment has some sort of voltage regulation built in, but when the difference is more than a few points off the OEM standard, we can see and hear the result."

    Again, this is a statement of a technical nature. The logical response to this would involve one simple sentence but that is not allowed in this forum. Although it seems to support your wishes for better sound, you might get some serious, well thought out rebuttals from experienced techies on the previously mentioned forum.

    To attempt to use technical terms w/o fear of technical rebuttal is to simply use this forum as a bully pulpit. Now, wether or not that is the intenet here is still under evaluation.

    "And on a different note. why does everyone get all huffy-puffy when someone talks about "prettying-up" their cables?"

    Nobody gets huffy about "prettying-up" cables. Eyebrows are raised, however, when it's implied that it makes an audiable difference which may or may not be the case. See the next paragraph for more on this subject. Again, for serious rebuttals, please post this in the Audio Lab where any differing opinions are not hobbled by the rules here.

    "Part of being an audiophile is not just experimenting with different components to achieve a higher level, but also with the cables, and speaker wires, and racks, and shelves, and so on."

    Actually, on the whole I agree with statement save for one word. "Experimenting", which implies some sort of controls when testing to either prove or disprove a theory. Now, if casual listening is all it takes for you then that's fine, but to call it an experiment is a misnomer.

    "I believe they can make a difference because I probably have a better understanding of electronics (because of my schooling) and because I've heard first hand the difference they can make (although I've never tested the AC effect)."

    Beliefs are a good thing. Attempting to see if these beliefs are valid would take some experimentation, and this was covered in the previous paragraph. But, be aware that many other people here have some serious schooling as well and quite a few years of experience in the fiield as well. Many have opinions that you might not agree with. If you wish to share your beliefs with thei knowledge and experience, try that other forum. If not, you are merely preaching to the choir.

    But, I think the most telling statement is from your second post.

    "I know they're expensive and have high mark-ups, but I like their styling and since these cords are visible in my system, a "pretty" cable is prefferred. "

    ...I most certainly can't and won't argue with that.

    I you want unqualified approval of your statements and reinforcements of your beliefs with no dissenting opinions, then either this forum or http://audioasylum.com will serve you well.

    If you want serious discussion, try the Audio Lab or perhaps other forums such as http://www.audioholics.com.

    ...enjoy

  2. #2
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    553
    Mark:
    What cracked me up big time was the poor fool's claim to have an education in electronics including a degree - which he couldn't even spell correctly! What is so freakin' difficult about the word "Batchelor"? It's spelled just like it sounds, but he couldn't muscle up for it.

    He really exposed himself with his claim of an electronics education, which was obviously FALSE, since he made so many egregious statements and claims which were totally without any basis in fact. When I challenged him on his "education", he got highly offended - which brings up the old saw ... "methinks that thou doth protest too much" doesn't it?

    Sheeeeeeeeesh!!!!!!!
    woodman

    I plan to live forever ..... so far, so good!
    Steven Wright

  3. #3
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659

    I do give the moderators credit on this one.

    It's quite a shame that this guy comes in and spouts all kinds of technical sounding fluff which has (IMNSHO) nothing to do at all with the desired results. And, then puts the cherry on the sundae by claiming to have a degree in electronics. Then, I offer him a chance to expound on his theories here, where "science" and measurments are supposed to be a valid rebuttal to technobabble, which he simply ignores.

    It's only fair that, since he's the one that tried to use science to buttress his point and impress those in question, that the mods allowed the rebuttals he was met with. Now, had he just asked the question w/o the window dressing, then I would assume that a simple "red pill" to a response in this forum be provided and should suffice.

    That way, those honestly questioning the reasoning would be provided with a suitable discourse and, for those who wish to ignore them, they would still have their "blue pill" and remain ignorant by choice. The lurkers, however, would have a chance to hear the other side of the debate.

    The fact that he chose to ignore all the well thought out responses does cause me to question the depth of his education and experience, however. ...but not his belief.


    Perhaps there is a chance yet...

  4. #4
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    553
    Quote Originally Posted by markw

    ... The fact that he chose to ignore all the well thought out responses does cause me to question the depth of his education and experience, however. ...but not his belief.
    I don't merely question the "depth of his education and experience" ... I seriously doubt that he's had any such education at all. Otherwise, he'd know better than to be talking such trash as gaining sonic performance by way of a fershlugginer power cord, fer crissakes! He quite obviously hasn't a clue regarding the design of electronic components and devices, and the part that a unit's power supply plays in making the incoming A-C power virtually irrelevant to the performance of the device.

    Now, we get "moderators" who'll not only tolerate his brand of nonsense, they're actually giving him the feedback that he seeks. Yikes!
    woodman

    I plan to live forever ..... so far, so good!
    Steven Wright

  5. #5
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by woodman
    What cracked me up big time was the poor fool's claim to have an education in electronics including a degree - which he couldn't even spell correctly! What is so freakin' difficult about the word "Batchelor"?
    As opposed, of course, to your misspelling as well.

    rw

  6. #6
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    The fact that he chose to ignore all the well thought out responses does cause me to question the depth of his education and experience, however. ...but not his belief.
    Just curious as to which aftermarket cords you have tried in your system.

    rw

  7. #7
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by woodman
    Now, we get "moderators" who'll not only tolerate his brand of nonsense, they're actually giving him the feedback that he seeks. Yikes!
    A moderator's job is simply to ensure that posts are topical and civil.

    As for the "nonsense", I'll ask the same question of you that I asked of Mark. Which aftermarket cords have you tried in your system?

    rw

  8. #8
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    A moderator's job is simply to ensure that posts are topical and civil.

    As for the "nonsense", I'll ask the same question of you that I asked of Mark. Which aftermarket cords have you tried in your system?

    rw
    Well, I did replace the cord on my Marantz Model 8 with a thicker cord a few years ago. No appreciable difference.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    740
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    A moderator's job is simply to ensure that posts are topical and civil.

    rw

    Really, then what's up with this statement:

    I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.

    Very civil indeed.

    Hypocrite.

    -Bruce

  10. #10
    Cylon Centurian Rycher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    68
    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Really, then what's up with this statement:

    I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.

    Very civil indeed.

    Hypocrite.

    -Bruce

    Wow. You directly called a moderator a "Hypocrite". You mentioned that any direct name calling is a violation of forum rules and is punishable by a ban. Oh well, see you later, or not.
    Visit my site for more stereos:
    www.jimmyneutron.org

  11. #11
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    740
    Quote Originally Posted by Rycher
    Wow. You directly called a moderator a "Hypocrite". You mentioned that any direct name calling is a violation of forum rules and is punishable by a ban. Oh well, see you later, or not.

    Call 'em as I see 'em.

    Don't think I didn't notice your little exercise in name calling either, which makes you a hypocrit too.

    -Bruce
    (Still awaiting test data)

  12. #12
    Cylon Centurian Rycher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    68
    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Call 'em as I see 'em.

    Don't think I didn't notice your little exercise in name calling either, which makes you a hypocrit too.

    -Bruce
    (Still awaiting test data)
    My sentence you referenced was pretty simple and written in plain english. There was no such reference, or even the most remote possibility of any name-calling in it. But as long as we're on the subject of hypocites...........
    Visit my site for more stereos:
    www.jimmyneutron.org

  13. #13
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    740
    Quote Originally Posted by Rycher
    My sentence you referenced was pretty simple and written in plain english. There was no such reference, or even the most remote possibility of any name-calling in it. But as long as we're on the subject of hypocites...........

    these snakes.

    Yep, that's plain english, plainly an insult to anyone who challenged you assertions.....

    -Bruce
    (Still no evidence presented....)

  14. #14
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Really, then what's up with this statement:

    I see all the non-experiential theoriticians have already responded.
    My guess is that none of the three of you have used an aftermarket cord in your system. If I am in error, I will stand corrected.

    rw

  15. #15
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    553
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    My guess is that none of the three of you have used an aftermarket cord in your system. If I am in error, I will stand corrected.
    rw
    Your "guess" is very likely to be quite corrrect since the "three of us" actually know something about electronics as opposed to those that merely think that they do. Knowing electronics (having actually studied it) precludes the notion that a power cord can have any meaningful effect on the performance of the component or device that it supplies A-C power to. It's just that simple. The fact that you believe that you heard some improvement by changing a power cord has no basis in fact, and is merely the subjective evaluation of a sensory perception that was created by your own personal ABEs ... that's all. It was not something "real" as that is not something that is even remotely possible.

    As to MY misspelling of "Bachelor" ... you were absolutely right about that one. I'm embarassed at my mistake - my spelling is generally flawless. My bad.
    woodman

    I plan to live forever ..... so far, so good!
    Steven Wright

  16. #16
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    740
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    My guess is that none of the three of you have used an aftermarket cord in your system. If I am in error, I will stand corrected.

    rw

    Not the point. -Bruce

  17. #17
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659

    Ah, I see he's decided to take the red pill.

    OK, here's my one line response to your original post.

    Friend, if your system is so dependent on voltage variations, you need to be looking at either power conditioners which can maintain a constant voltage/current level and perhaps "smooth out" AC on very bad AC lines, or perhaps an uninteruptable power supply if it's that critical.

    To expect such actions from a power cord is not realistic. That's hoping for a silver bullet.
    Last edited by markw; 09-07-2004 at 04:23 AM.

  18. #18
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by woodman
    Knowing electronics (having actually studied it) precludes the notion that a power cord can have any meaningful effect on the performance of the component or device that it supplies A-C power to. It's just that simple.
    Thank you for that frank affirmation. Someday, you may be surprised!

    rw

  19. #19
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Not the point. -Bruce
    It may not be your point, but it perfectly supports the observation of mine that you took exception to. At least Woodman acknowledges that his opinion is driven by theory, not direct experience.

    rw

  20. #20
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Friend, if your system is so dependent on voltage variations...
    Who said anything about a cord maintaining voltage variations?

    rw

  21. #21
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    740
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    It may not be your point, but it perfectly supports the observation of mine that you took exception to. At least Woodman acknowledges that his opinion is driven by theory, not direct experience.

    rw
    Woodmans reply is not to the point either.

    Let me lay it out then: As moderator, you should depart from of such statements that can be viewed as ad hominem attacks. If you cannot, maybe you should reconsider being in that position.

    -Bruce

  22. #22
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Let me lay it out then: As moderator, you should depart from of such statements that can be viewed as ad hominem attacks. If you cannot, maybe you should reconsider being in that position.
    My apologies if you found the observation to be a personal attack. markw and Woodman seem more comfortable with their theoretical stand. I question any "scientific" results that rely upon theory alone. Especially for when quite a number of folks have discovered otherwise.

    If you recall, Rycher specifically asked for those with direct experience with aftermarket cords. I found it highly ironic that the first respondents to jump in do not.

    rw

    BTW, Frances gave us in the Atlanta area a little dose of what you got in spades. My broadband is currently out!

  23. #23
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    740
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    My apologies if you found the observation to be a personal attack. markw and Woodman seem more comfortable with their theoretical stand. I question any "scientific" results that rely upon theory alone. Especially for when quite a number of folks have discovered otherwise.
    Accepted.

    I think by now I've made my position more than abudantly clear and don't need to rehash history.

    -Bruce

  24. #24
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    335
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I question any "scientific" results that rely upon theory alone.
    Well there is some theory yes (assuming you are talking about a naysayer here and really there are no naysayers, just maysayers) and then there are also some measurements and even some subjective listening testing. And nobody is putting forth anything as a "result", it is simply a likely conclusion based on opinion and current theory and measurement.

    Now on the yeasayer side of the parking lot, we have anecdotal reporting which is the result of in-home experimentation. However, there is no theory to explain these results nor are there any correlated measurements. There is only conjecture like "we haven't discovered what properties should be measured". And all of this is from testing that is non-scientific, non-controled and completely subjective. Yet, many people have decisively concluded that power cords affect audio sound.

    Therefore, I question any "scientific results" that rely on unsubstantiated and unscientific observation alone, especially in the face of a lack of theoretical explanation as well as a lack of experimental measurements.


    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Especially for when quite a number of folks have discovered otherwise.
    In the absence of science, it's amazing what people can "discover". And sheer numbers do not validate anything in a scientific manner, they simply indicate that the "discovery" is popular or intriguing. And anything in the audiophile world which indicates that sound improvement may be had is going to be very popular. Perhaps so popular as to abandon otherwise good judgement.
    Friends help friends move,
    Good friends help friends move bodies....

  25. #25
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462

    Ok, now where were we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    Perhaps it's time that you provided some theory to explain your observations.
    According to engineers with whom I've spoken, the main villain targeted by aftermarket cords is noise generated not hundreds of miles away at some power sub station, but hundreds of feet away inside your home by computers, fluorescent light fixtures, refrigerators, digitally controlled appliances, and even inches away by digital sources like CDPs. All of which generate RFI that is transmitted through the power line and ultimately through the audio components. Good electronic components will happily amplify the noise along with the signal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    And also, maybe you should look again at the method you use for your experimentation.
    My method? You mean hearing deeper into my music? Discovering subtle details for recordings that I've heard hundreds of times before? Reading a book on EE theory will tell me more about the harmonic structure of a piano? Don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    It is the non-theoretical experimentationalists that are demanding that the non-experiential theoriticians come up with the theory to explain their observations. Did I get that right or am I missing something?
    You're missing something. I demand nothing other than for my opinion to be heard and considered. Unlike others, however, I will not step in with my observations if a discussion of audio theory is desired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Oh Mr. Static...

    ...or do you prefer Lord-E...
    The former is fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    How can a power cord that supplies your TTs motor have any effect on the audio loop?
    Essentially the same answer as above. Perhaps my system is more subject to this effect due to the use of a low output MC cartridge.

    As a software developer, when I seek answers to audio related electronics questions, I prefer to consult EEs whose chosen field is not only audio, but those who have been designing and producing high performance equipment for decades. A nice advantage of having known two prominent audio reviewers for over 25 years is that through them, I have met quite a few highly regarded and successful audio engineers. Naturally, you will find quite a range in personalities. On the one hand, you have cautious old-school guys like William Z. Johnson and Jud Barber who simply acknowledge the benefits of using aftermarket cords. Then there are guys like Ole Lund Christensen and Luke Manley who either don't supply a cord at all with their products or fully expect their customers to choose their own.

    It's not as if anyone of these engineers make anything with "inferior" power supplies. Ever look at the power supply size of the big Audio Research, VTL, GamuT, or Joule Electra amps? They are measured in hundreds of joules. How about their preamps with likewise massive regulation?

    What I really find most enjoyable about being involved in informal discussions or dinners with these guys is that they would really rather talk about music than the gear. That's what it is all about for me, too.

    rw

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. First experience with power conditioning
    By Mr Peabody in forum Cables
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 06-20-2006, 08:09 AM
  2. bi-wiring
    By sleeper_red in forum Cables
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 12-19-2004, 02:47 PM
  3. Is a cable "Fence-sitter" always a Fence-sitter?
    By Tony_Montana in forum Cables
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 06-25-2004, 09:38 PM
  4. expensive cables
    By sofsoldier in forum Cables
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 12-22-2003, 07:15 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •