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  1. #1
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    Tube amp to hybrid switch

    I own a Prima Luna Prologue 2 integrated which has wonderful sound that I love. But I also have very inefficient speakers (84 db). The Prima Luna sounds great through my speakers, but I could really use more power to handle them better. I don't want to lose the sound quality I have now, but I am thinking of changing to a hybrid amp with at least 100 watts of amp power to go with a tube pre-amp section. Does anyone out there have experience in changing between a pure tube integrated and a hybrid? Have you clearly noticed any difference in sound quality, sound stage, imagery, etc. I would appreciate any thoughful answers.

  2. #2
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Are your speakers bi-wirable?
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  3. #3
    RGA
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    If you really like the sound you have but you need more power I would try and see what Prima Luna has up the line (if they have any other more powerful amps). I just reviewed a set of monoblock Hybrid power amps. If your Prima Luna can operate as a preamp then you might be in luck because then you can add power. Or perhaps get a Prima Luna preamp via trade.

    Anyway, the Shengya Power amps are terrific in terms of sound and power and has tremendous build quality - they make Bryston power amps seem like toys and cost a lot less. Hybrids have just as much chance of sounding like the worst of both worlds and IMO they often do. The PM 150 were quite nice on my set-up and will very likely drive virtually any speaker. 300 watts (4ohm)

    http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=752 Apparently on their website they have a special deal on pricing and include the matching preamp. I have not heard it but some other reviewers reviewed the bigger brother preamp and really loved it. $2400 for two 40lb beastly mono block amps and a tube preamp.

    You can see a better real world picture of them on the floor here http://grantfidelity.com/site/SSI+20...Grant+Fidelity

  4. #4
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Check out the Van Alstine Hyrid FET Valve amp. The 550 puts out over 500wpc at 4ohms and the 350 over 250wpc. They have a great tube sound. You can get the double die option for much higher current and dynamics. I own their Hybrid preamp and hybrid DAC. Give Frank Van Alstine a call, he always answers his phone and loves to talk shop. He will steer you in the right direction. All gear is custom made to order with a 30 day trial, money back guarentee. The FET valve amps are quiet, dynamic with great imaging and transparency. They will drive 2 ohm loads with ease.

    www.avahifi.com

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  5. #5
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    Hybrid sound never reaches the fidelity level of tubes. I would suggest going to the Prima Luna 7 or to something efficient in speakers (from one of the Zu speakers to Audio Note or to Devore). I have heard the PL 7 in triode, and it sounded wonderful. Sometimes spending more results in better sound now and better long-term satisfaction.
    I have had the same amp/preamp/prepreamp and speakers for decades (AR SP8, AR D-70, Counterpoint SA-2, and Fulton J speakers)

  6. #6
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    Hybrid sound never reaches the fidelity level of tubes. I would suggest going to the Prima Luna 7 or to something efficient in speakers (from one of the Zu speakers to Audio Note or to Devore). I have heard the PL 7 in triode, and it sounded wonderful. Sometimes spending more results in better sound now and better long-term satisfaction.
    I have had the same amp/preamp/prepreamp and speakers for decades (AR SP8, AR D-70, Counterpoint SA-2, and Fulton J speakers)

    The Van Alstine Hybrid amps are as tubey as they get. Even his solid state amps have a tube sound.
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  7. #7
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    Hybrid sound never reaches the fidelity level of tubes. I would suggest going to the Prima Luna 7 or to something efficient in speakers (from one of the Zu speakers to Audio Note or to Devore). I have heard the PL 7 in triode, and it sounded wonderful. Sometimes spending more results in better sound now and better long-term satisfaction.
    I have had the same amp/preamp/prepreamp and speakers for decades (AR SP8, AR D-70, Counterpoint SA-2, and Fulton J speakers)
    Actually the word "fidelity" means accuracy, or the ability to reproduce something accurately. In that respect tubed amps, however pleasing to listen to, rarely have the fidelity of their solid state brothers.
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  8. #8
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    Blackraven, it depends on what you mean by "tubey". It has been my experience that any solid state in the chain diminishes the presence that comes with tubes. With that being said I have not heard any of VA's products. What I mean by "presence" is that since of depth, and the sense that lifts the performance off the paper feel.

    Geoffcin, tubes bring a different type of fidelity. They may not have the control of the best solid state amps but solid state amps rarely come close to the macro and micro dynamics of tubes. I haven't heard a tube amp yet to rival the transient response of Krell, on the other hand I've yet to hear a solid state amp give the natural detail instruments should have, I call it tonal richness or shadings. This is wildly general as well since both tube and solid state vary a great deal in their ability to perform in their respective technologies.

    My main system is all tube except my source. In the near future I do have a solid state power amp coming I will put into the system to see how it does. I'm sure it won't end up replacing my CJ monoblocks but it will be an interesting experiment.

  9. #9
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Geoffcin, tubes bring a different type of fidelity. They may not have the control of the best solid state amps but solid state amps rarely come close to the macro and micro dynamics of tubes. I haven't heard a tube amp yet to rival the transient response of Krell, on the other hand I've yet to hear a solid state amp give the natural detail instruments should have, I call it tonal richness or shadings. This is wildly general as well since both tube and solid state vary a great deal in their ability to perform in their respective technologies.
    Please don't take my meaning to be that I disrespect tubed components in any way, but technically there can only be one type of fidelity, and that means; "To reproduce the original signal as close to exactly as possible." As far as I know there's no tube amp that can come close to a Halcro or Krell in that regard. That doesn't mean that they would sound "better" to anyone at all, just that they have higher fidelity in the true sense of the word.
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  10. #10
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    For years I was running tube pre and ss amp. Now I have a better tube pre and a hybrid amp, tube in-ss out. The midrange and detail is killer with this setup and the right speakers. Swapping the Stratos back in clearly shows it's weakness to deliver in the mids and highs as compared to the Counterpoint with all other components the same.

    I have learned to forgive the lack of deep bass for the improved midrange and blending in a sub took care of the lacking deep end with my Clearfields not needed with the Danes.

  11. #11
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    For years I was running tube pre and ss amp. Now I have a better tube pre and a hybrid amp, tube in-ss out. The midrange and detail is killer with this setup and the right speakers. Swapping the Stratos back in clearly shows it's weakness to deliver in the mids and highs as compared to the Counterpoint with all other components the same.

    I have learned to forgive the lack of deep bass for the improved midrange and blending in a sub took care of the lacking deep end with my Clearfields not needed with the Danes.
    I've been thinking of adding a tube preamp to my Rotel amp. Are you suggesting this outfit would not serve me as well as a hybrid amp would in your opinion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon
    I've been thinking of adding a tube preamp to my Rotel amp. Are you suggesting this outfit would not serve me as well as a hybrid amp would in your opinion?
    No no, tube pre with ss amp usually sounds a bit better than ss pre ss amp setup but then again it will depend on pre. With your Rotel amp I would say you would get good results with a decent tubed pre.

  13. #13
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    No no, tube pre with ss amp usually sounds a bit better than ss pre ss amp setup but then again it will depend on pre. With your Rotel amp I would say you would get good results with a decent tubed pre.
    Thanks. I have in mind a Conrad Johnson or a Audio Reseach preamp. I really like the Audio Research LS 15. From my listening experience to the both, it seems as if the CJ pre would offer more tube warmth and tonal sweetness with a very slight roll of in treble while the Audio Research would offer a more lively tonal sweetness and no roll off that I could hear and has a velvety sophistication, such as with cymbals that seem to have a feathery sound to them.

    I have also been doing a lots of reading about the Odyssey Candela tubed preamp. I find a lots of mixed reviews concerning its performance. Because I trust most members here in their opinions, can you give me any understanding about this preamp or any Odyssey amp or preamp, seeing you are an owner? Thanks in advance.
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  14. #14
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    I have a 10 y/o standard Stratos amp with upgraded caps. It is a great SS amp with lots of low end. Being a bass nut, I never wanted much more until I got the Counterpoint. At first I thought the CP was flawed and totally lacked deep bass. It does lack real deep bass but in return I got some of the best Mids and highs ever to be in my room.

    My pre right now is a VAC Cla 1 MkII dual mono all tube. My previous one was a Sound Valves 101i which replaced my Hafler 945. Both tube pres were a better match for sound than the Hafler Stratos setup.

    I still swap my Stratos in and out with my two pairs of speakers and enjoy the sound from both.

    You won't be disappointed with either the CJ or AR. I cannot comment about the Odssey Pre.

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  15. #15
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Blackraven, it depends on what you mean by "tubey". It has been my experience that any solid state in the chain diminishes the presence that comes with tubes. With that being said I have not heard any of VA's products. What I mean by "presence" is that since of depth, and the sense that lifts the performance off the paper feel.

    .

    Mr. P, Frank VA strives to make his equipment as least solid state sounding as possible. His newer solid state gear does just that and his Hybrid tube gear takes it to another level. You would be hard pressed to tell that his hybrid amps are not fully tubed. I'm not stating that his gear is the best, but for the money, it is a real bargain if you can put up with that 1970's look and lack of bling. You would have to pay $1k-$3K more to find something comparable. And you won't be getting the kind of customer service and potential upgradability his equipment usually offers.

    I wish you guys could hear my system with my hybrid tube preamp and hybrid dac paired with my SS parasound amp. With tube rolling I can change the sound and depth of the music from SS to tube sounding depending upon which tubes I use.
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  16. #16
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    Blackraven, it's nice to see you're so happy with your system. It's nice to see someone who is really happy with their gear. I'll have to try some VA gear sometime.

    Stunaramore, I have gone from a tube integrated and I'm going to a tube pre and tube hybrid. I have auditioned these and the improvement in sound quality is amazing but that's because of two things 1. The amps are more expensive than what I'm replacing and 2. the builder of the amps is very knowlegeable and builds amps that have amazing sound and build quality.
    I guess it depends on how much you want to spend and the gear you are comparing. I had purchased an integrated amp from Arte Forma that was modelled after ARC gear and it sounded pretty nice. I notice an issue with excessive humming noise coming from my speakers and from one of the transformers so I had to get it checked out and I was referred to a shop in Vancouver, BC Canada called Space Tech Lab. The gentleman told me what the problems were and I decided to send the amp back to the company I bought from to get a refund because I did not want to deal with the back and forth between Canada and US border crossings and shipping of an amp that has been wired point to point, as some of the issues were related to shipping. At any rate, the Space Tech Lab shop owner spent about 2 or 3 hours with me comparing his amps with the Arte Forma and then he compared different versions of his own amps, pure tube, integrateds and hybrids. All these comparisons were as a result of my requests and he never pushed his gear on me. Well, I couldn't believe the difference in sound between all of the gear while using just one set of speakers. Obviously his more expensive offerings sounded the best but even his cheaper gear sounded better than the Arte Forma. Some of the improvements in sound quality were a huge increase in air, instrument separation and imaging was improved, clarity and detail were increased and the overall tonal accuracy and midrange sweetness/richness was improved.
    I decided to purchase a tube pre-amp from him and I will be buying a tube hybrid from him, as my speakers have multiple drivers and require the bass control of an SS or hybrid. The sound quality of his hybrid amps is certainly amazing and they sound as if they are pure tube amps.

    My point is that you can find a hybrid amp that will have great sound quality and if you have the opportunity you can look at the Space Tech Lab site and see what he has to offer. His equipment is all hand built and the sound quality of all of his gear is great. He offers amps,etc. that have very affordable prices to some that are fairly expensive. Also, some of his gear offers an endless number of tube rolling options as well as upgrade options. Also, he offers quite a few different types of gear and a number of different versions of the different types of gear. The aesthetic quality of his gear varies quite a bit too, as some of his items don't appeal to me at all and there's some that I find look really nice. I know looks are not that important but some find value in aesthetics and he offers a huge variety of different looking pieces. The only thing that is not the greatest is that his trial period/return policy is not very good, but I am buying from him because I auditioned the amps and compared them to a fairly nice tube integrated and his gear will provide me with a huge improvement in sound quality. I will be picking up the tube pre this weekend. I won't be able to pick up the hybrid for a few months, as I decided to go for some of his pricier items and I have to save up to buy the hybrid.

    Please note that I'm not trying to say that Arte Forma or ARC products are not good, as I know they build good products but it's a testament to how good the Space Tech Lab gear is.

    Good luck with you search for a suitable amp.

    If you want to take a look the website is:http://www.space-tech-lab.com/

    Albert is an amazing fellow, as he is the most knowledgeable audio person I've ever talked to and he is also very nice and will spend as much time heping you as you need. He can also recommend the best gear for you based on your current setup, music preferences, etc.
    Last edited by devuonoste; 07-21-2010 at 01:37 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Actually the word "fidelity" means accuracy, or the ability to reproduce something accurately. In that respect tubed amps, however pleasing to listen to, rarely have the fidelity of their solid state brothers.
    Solid state can be balanced measured solely by frequency response, however much more is involved in real fidelity to the music: capturing both micro and macro dynamic swings (listen to a unit with a tube power supply regulation vs solid state regulation), capturing the liquidity present in live music, and capturing tonal density. There is more tube equipment at high end shows than ever. And more analogue (turntables, cartridges, head amps, transformers). There is a reason for this: tubes offer both more fidelity and more long term satisfaction than solid state. IMO, some of the best tube units, measure poorly (by frequency response), but offer more true fidelity to the music. Here I am thinking of triode and single-ended units.

    Listen to your favorite music on CD and on records on tube and on solid state equipment. IMO, there is no comparison. Plus, if you go down the solid state path, I predict you will be constantly replacing units in a hopeless attempt to gain satisfaction.

  18. #18
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    Solid state can be balanced measured solely by frequency response, however much more is involved in real fidelity to the music: capturing both micro and macro dynamic swings (listen to a unit with a tube power supply regulation vs solid state regulation), capturing the liquidity present in live music, and capturing tonal density. There is more tube equipment at high end shows than ever. And more analogue (turntables, cartridges, head amps, transformers). There is a reason for this: tubes offer both more fidelity and more long term satisfaction than solid state. IMO, some of the best tube units, measure poorly (by frequency response), but offer more true fidelity to the music. Here I am thinking of triode and single-ended units.

    Listen to your favorite music on CD and on records on tube and on solid state equipment. IMO, there is no comparison. Plus, if you go down the solid state path, I predict you will be constantly replacing units in a hopeless attempt to gain satisfaction.
    Oh, dear. Let's not spin this tube vs. s/s arguments yet again.

    Many long term listens will agree that ultimate sound comes from a quality tube amp; about about as many are very happy with fine solid state equipment. (Personally I use a tube pre with solid state amps.)

  19. #19
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    ..... tubes offer both more fidelity and more long term satisfaction than solid state. IMO, some of the best tube units, measure poorly (by frequency response), but offer more true fidelity to the music. Here I am thinking of triode and single-ended units.

    Listen to your favorite music on CD and on records on tube and on solid state equipment. IMO, there is no comparison. Plus, if you go down the solid state path, I predict you will be constantly replacing units in a hopeless attempt to gain satisfaction.
    Oh brother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Oh, dear. Let's not spin this tube vs. s/s arguments yet again.

    Many long term listens will agree that ultimate sound comes from a quality tube amp; about about as many are very happy with fine solid state equipment. (Personally I use a tube pre with solid state amps.)
    The demise of tubes (and analogue) was predicted long ago. CDs are going to be dead long before records die. Ditto for tubes. I'm going to the California Audio Show June 30, 31, Aug 1, and I bet tubes will be featured in the best sounding rooms.

  21. #21
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    The demise of tubes (and analogue) was predicted long ago. CDs are going to be dead long before records die. Ditto for tubes. I'm going to the California Audio Show June 30, 31, Aug 1, and I bet tubes will be featured in the best sounding rooms.
    Did I predict the demise of tubes? Or were you speaking of people in general?

    Nobody around here is predicting the end of tubes -- or vinyl. Check out recent posts by our member, RGA, who entirely argees with you on the virtues of tube equipment.

  22. #22
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    Solid state can be balanced measured solely by frequency response, however much more is involved in real fidelity to the music: capturing both micro and macro dynamic swings (listen to a unit with a tube power supply regulation vs solid state regulation), capturing the liquidity present in live music, and capturing tonal density. There is more tube equipment at high end shows than ever. And more analogue (turntables, cartridges, head amps, transformers). There is a reason for this: tubes offer both more fidelity and more long term satisfaction than solid state. IMO, some of the best tube units, measure poorly (by frequency response), but offer more true fidelity to the music. Here I am thinking of triode and single-ended units.

    Listen to your favorite music on CD and on records on tube and on solid state equipment. IMO, there is no comparison. Plus, if you go down the solid state path, I predict you will be constantly replacing units in a hopeless attempt to gain satisfaction.
    Your confusing attractivness with fidelity. However much you might LIKE the sound of tubes, or tubed gear, the fact is that what your listening to and are so enamored with, is a degradation of the original signal. This is NOT fidelity in the true sense of the word, however much enjoyable it may sound.
    Audio;
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  23. #23
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Blackraven, it depends on what you mean by "tubey". It has been my experience that any solid state in the chain diminishes the presence that comes with tubes. With that being said I have not heard any of VA's products. What I mean by "presence" is that since of depth, and the sense that lifts the performance off the paper feel.
    ....
    I've heard that "presence" that you speak of. It's nice. However my theory is that it is an artifact of fubes' higher 2nd order distortion -- only a theory of course.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Your confusing attractivness with fidelity. However much you might LIKE the sound of tubes, or tubed gear, the fact is that what your listening to and are so enamored with, is a degradation of the original signal. This is NOT fidelity in the true sense of the word, however much enjoyable it may sound.
    YOU are confusing fidelity with frequency response. Much more is involved. YOU are not considering micro and macro fidelity, and accurate tonal saturation, among other factors favoring tubes. Consider this: the best music is beautiful, and I've yet to hear the same sweet beauty in solid state equipment, regardless of cost. I go to a lot of live music events (classical and jazz), and tubes capture the thrill of live music. I am looking forward to the California Audio Show, especially to the matching of tubes and recent examples of speakers with high efficiency.
    Another note: many confuse the crisp sound of solid state with accuracy. It's really an innaccuracy, an overemphasis of the leading edge of notes. It's a kind of crispness not found in music. I'll take the liquid bloom of tubes that closely mirror the live event.

  25. #25
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    YOU are confusing fidelity with frequency response. Much more is involved. YOU are not considering micro and macro fidelity, and accurate tonal saturation, among other factors favoring tubes. Consider this: the best music is beautiful, and I've yet to hear the same sweet beauty in solid state equipment, regardless of cost. I go to a lot of live music events (classical and jazz), and tubes capture the thrill of live music. I am looking forward to the California Audio Show, especially to the matching of tubes and recent examples of speakers with high efficiency.
    Another note: many confuse the crisp sound of solid state with accuracy. It's really an innaccuracy, an overemphasis of the leading edge of notes. It's a kind of crispness not found in music. I'll take the liquid bloom of tubes that closely mirror the live event.
    And you are just confused. Fidelity is a word with a standard meaning. It's not something that you "feel" it is. I suggest you go look it up.
    Audio;
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