Pass Labs X150.5 Audition.......Almost

[frenchmon]

Just for curiosity sake. What other amps would you put in the Pass Labs league? Maybe that's a question with too many variables. I would put Bryston, Ayre and Krell on a ladder a couple steps lower. They are the only brands I've listened to so far.

You would first have to define what you mean by league? Because Bryston, Avre and Krell certainly make amps in that same league...whatever it may be.

[harley .guy07]

You would first have to define what you mean by league? Because Bryston, Avre and Krell certainly make amps in that same league...whatever it may be.

I think you meant Ayre, I would love to try one of their preamps. In fact when I get ready to upgrade preamps in a while I will probably look at Ayre as one of the options along with a Pass Preamp of coarse. But upgrade in speakers will come first.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks Jack, that's about the size I would want. I could possibly make do with 100.5's. I'll just run over and order those , I wish. I've been fortunate enough to run across good deals which allowed me to have some of the gear I do. I never imagined I'd ever have anything like the #512. I am also fortunate to have a wife that has pretty much accepted my hobby/addiction.

I ordered this: Ultimate Demonstration Disc: Chesky Records' Guide to Critical Listening. Blackraven said he has one. What's cool about this is it has a narrative to explain what we should be hearing. I'm anxious to see how my system measures up.


$13

[harley .guy07]

I have actually heard of that Chesky disk from a friend that is also into this hobby. He said it helped him immensely with system setup when he moved the last time. I am glad you brought that up because I was going to order that disk back then and totally forgot to do so. I will have to get on that and see how my system measures up too.

[blackraven]

I have actually heard of that Chesky disk from a friend that is also into this hobby. He said it helped him immensely with system setup when he moved the last time. I am glad you brought that up because I was going to order that disk back then and totally forgot to do so. I will have to get on that and see how my system measures up too.

I just listened to the Chesky disc with the Pass and it truly is a marvel at how good the recordings are. It has me rethinking if I really need a new preamp like the X1 or should I just stick with my VA preamp which sounds spectacular. I think that the X1 would just give me a little more detail and resolution with a little more air and TP.

Amazon.com: Ultimate Demonstration Disc: Chesky Records' Guide to Critical Listening: Music

I also listened to this Chesky disc that has some of the same songs that is on the demonstration disc.

Amazon.com: World's Greatest Audiophile Vocal Recordings: Music

It is a Hybrid SACD and the CD layer is phenomenol. I wish I had a high end SACD player because I can't imagine it sounding any better.

I am now thinking that maybe I should save my money and buy a pair of Magnepan 3.7's next summer.

[harley .guy07]

yeah I actually found a friend here that actually had that disk and let me borrow it until mine arrived and I can say the same of my system. for me not having upgraded speakers yet my system did really well in this test overall. I don't think it had the depth of some of the super systems out there but for the speakers I am currently running it did rather well and way better than I thought it would do honestly. Raven, that's actually how I feel about my Preamp as well. I wounder how a Pass pre would do with my system but with the Nuforce doing so well its hard to put that up on the list of things to do when I have other things that I need ot address first(speakers for one). Not to say that my speakers are bad because they aren't at all I just believe that the rest of my gear has risen to the point that my speakers are now the bottleneck.

[Mr Peabody]

When I went all balanced it was a nice improvement in control and dynamics. I know they say there's a conversion to balanced when using single ended but when I put the last step, going balanced from CDP to preamp things really improved. Read the Pass manual about the patented balanced circuit, it seems to make sense to take advantage of it for optimum performance.

I personally would think the X1 would provide as much improvement as the X250 over an AVA amp. The X1 is older but it's a two chassis quality piece. .

[frenchmon]

I think you meant Ayre, I would love to try one of their preamps. In fact when I get ready to upgrade preamps in a while I will probably look at Ayre as one of the options along with a Pass Preamp of coarse. But upgrade in speakers will come first.

Yes I meant Ayre....thanks. But as far as preamps, you will no doubt get better synergy from a Pass preamp seeing you have the amp. The same designer created both, so im of the opinion that a certain magic happens when they are both on the same page as far as design. But thats not to say a different brand name pre wont sound good, but that little something extra comes with a matching pair. I believe Peabody has benefited greatly from a matching Pass pre and amp, and I too am hearing magic with my matching Vincent pre and amp.

[Jack in Wilmington]

You would first have to define what you mean by league? Because Bryston, Avre and Krell certainly make amps in that same league...whatever it may be.

I guess what I mean by a league is a level of enjoyment. Like minor league baseball compared to major league baseball. The parts that make up the whole are better and the enjoyment increases. Like I said also, there are way too many variables to come up with a set up measurements to rate such things. That's why I asked for opinions as many of the guys have had different makes of amps.

[frenchmon]

I guess what I mean by a league is a level of enjoyment. Like minor league baseball compared to major league baseball. The parts that make up the whole are better and the enjoyment increases. Like I said also, there are way too many variables to come up with a set up measurements to rate such things. That's why I asked for opinions as many of the guys have had different makes of amps.

Most hi end manufacturers make several amps...preamps... and so on, in different audio classes. You have entry level all the way up to the highest you can go. So when you talk about the very highest you can go, take Pass Labs Xs300 which retails at $85,000 a pair. And take the Audionet Max mono block amps which retails for $26k a pair. You would think the Pass Labs was in a different league, but not so. The price does not always dictate what class or league a component is in. And there are always trade offs on what different gear in the same calss can do....its always a trade off....no one component is perfect at what it can do. Here is a review of a few amps including the Pass and Audionet among a few others....mind you, its about a few years old, but you get the idea of what I am getting at. All the amps perform in the same league and class. Scroll down to where it says AMP II MAX monoblocks vs. other mighty power amps


and you can see what the finding were in a shoot out....Pass Labs included.

Innerworld Audio - Audionet Amp Max Monoblocks

[harley .guy07]

Well I read the test and they tested a X350.5 against the Audionet. I am surprised that they did not choose something form Passes XA or XS series. The X350.5 is a $11,500 dollar amplifier not a $85,000 XS series from which you mentioned. I will say that I would have liked to see a XA, or XS go against the Audionet and see how the outcome would be and I would bet it would be different. The X.5 series are now Passes lowest line of amps and even though they are some of the best in their price category the XA and XS represent a even higher end sound that is a true reference. Even thought I doubt I will ever get past the x.5 series if a person is going to spend this kind of money on gear and wants a true reference comparison at least they can get the best from these companies and compare them. In fact it looks like the other brands represented were the top or near top models from these companies but not the Pass. I just don't think this is a real reference comparison. iTs kind of like of Ferrari took there top car and did performance comparisons against the Porsche Boxster, well yeah the Ferrari will come out on top. Now if Ferrari tested their top car against a Porsche 918 then that would be a true reference test.

On a different note I just heard from another member from another forum that Pass Labs is introducing another series to their amps lines called the X.8 series. It would seem that this series is going to take some of the technology and sound from the XA, and XS series but have the power output of the X.5 series. It will bridge the gap between the X.5 and XA/XS series price wise as well. I do not know yet how much difference there will be between the X.8 and X.5 but they will start selling them sometime in 2014

[Jack in Wilmington]

Well I read the test and they tested a X350.5 against the Audionet. I am surprised that they did not choose something form Passes XA or XS series. The X350.5 is a $11,500 dollar amplifier not a $85,000 XS series from which you mentioned. I will say that I would have liked to see a XA, or XS go against the Audionet and see how the outcome would be and I would bet it would be different. The X.5 series are now Passes lowest line of amps and even though they are some of the best in their price category the XA and XS represent a even higher end sound that is a true reference. Even thought I doubt I will ever get past the x.5 series if a person is going to spend this kind of money on gear and wants a true reference comparison at least they can get the best from these companies and compare them. In fact it looks like the other brands represented were the top or near top models from these companies but not the Pass. I just don't think this is a real reference comparison. iTs kind of like of Ferrari took there top car and did performance comparisons against the Porsche Boxster, well yeah the Ferrari will come out on top. Now if Ferrari tested their top car against a Porsche 918 then that would be a true reference test.

On a different note I just heard from another member from another forum that Pass Labs is introducing another series to their amps lines called the X.8 series. It would seem that this series is going to take some of the technology and sound from the XA, and XS series but have the power output of the X.5 series. It will bridge the gap between the X.5 and XA/XS series price wise as well. I do not know yet how much difference there will be between the X.8 and X.5 but they will start selling them sometime in 2014

I read that also Harley, and that could mean that some people will be trading up and there could be more .5s on the used market, which is a good thing. Mark at Reno HiFi is taking trade-ins from what I've read, and giving full value if your unit is 4 months old or newer.

[frenchmon]

Well I read the test and they tested a X350.5 against the Audionet. I am surprised that they did not choose something form Passes XA or XS series. The X350.5 is a $11,500 dollar amplifier not a $85,000 XS series from which you mentioned. I will say that I would have liked to see a XA, or XS go against the Audionet and see how the outcome would be and I would bet it would be different. The X.5 series are now Passes lowest line of amps and even though they are some of the best in their price category the XA and XS represent a even higher end sound that is a true reference. Even thought I doubt I will ever get past the x.5 series if a person is going to spend this kind of money on gear and wants a true reference comparison at least they can get the best from these companies and compare them. In fact it looks like the other brands represented were the top or near top models from these companies but not the Pass. I just don't think this is a real reference comparison. iTs kind of like of Ferrari took there top car and did performance comparisons against the Porsche Boxster, well yeah the Ferrari will come out on top. Now if Ferrari tested their top car against a Porsche 918 then that would be a true reference test.

On a different note I just heard from another member from another forum that Pass Labs is introducing another series to their amps lines called the X.8 series. It would seem that this series is going to take some of the technology and sound from the XA, and XS series but have the power output of the X.5 series. It will bridge the gap between the X.5 and XA/XS series price wise as well. I do not know yet how much difference there will be between the X.8 and X.5 but they will start selling them sometime in 2014

Hi Harley...I got the wrong amp.

The xs-300 is $85k...not the Xs-350.5...my bad

Reno Hi-Fi

But with all that, you focused on the review rather than my point which is All those amps are in the same league as far as hifi is concerned. All those amps are great! All those amps have the highest and best engineers, all those amps are built like tanks. All those amps have the highest performance. None of the amps are perfect. It becomes a matter of system matching and preference at that level. Sure you are biased towards Pass Labs, thats understandable but there are trade offs with each and every one of those amps. I would be happy with any one of those amps. And yes....Just because an amp cost $100k and another amp cost $75k they can be considered in the same league.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hi Harley...I got the wrong amp.

The xs-300 is $85k...not the Xs-350.5...my bad

Reno Hi-Fi

But with all that, you focused on the review rather than my point which is All those amps are in the same league as far as hifi is concerned. All those amps are great! All those amps have the highest and best engineers, all those amps are built like tanks. All those amps have the highest performance. None of the amps are perfect. It becomes a matter of system matching and preference at that level. Sure you are biased towards Pass Labs, thats understandable but there are trade offs with each and every one of those amps. I would be happy with any one of those amps. And yes....Just because an amp cost $100k and another amp cost $75k they can be considered in the same league.

I don't think that you are being fair to Harley by calling him biased towards Pass Labs. That would indicate that he can't find any other amps appealing besides Pass, and that is not what he has indicated so far. Should we say you are biased towards Vincent, certainly not. You can still appreciate the products that other companies produce. Now our old friend RGA we could probably say was biased towards Audio Note.

[harley .guy07]

I am not biased toward anything, I just know that for the sound character that I have searched for for many years the Pass designs seem to fit this sound the best out of what I have heard. And you are right when it gets up to that price area a difference of $50,000 does not guaranty better. But my point is that the reviewer should have stated that his reviews for for a certain price max and under and stated that there are better versions of Pass and Plinius designs out there that might be better than anything he had heard in that whole test by a far margin. i would think if I were to do a test like that I would set a price maximum and try to find the "reference" top level products up to the max price and if there were any that were not the best that particular company has to offer I would take note of that mentally and otherwise. I think for a audio reviewer it is a duty to notice and take note of things like this in a review as to not misinform potential customers of these companies of what they can get if they are looking for absolute reference price is no object audio products. I know that most or all of us here have our personal set limitations of how much we can spend on audio and keep everything else going and not be divorced and broke so most of this does not apply to us. I know I love my Pass amp and feel fortunate to be able to find one at a used/more affordable price and I might not ever see myself going up to the XA or XS level and that is fine with me because in my everyday life my X series does my music due diligence. I just think some reviewers don't realize that they have a duty to inform and educate people on products and when true reference products are called for in a review get true reference products and not entry level products facing reference products. That was all I was trying to say.

[frenchmon]

I don't think that you are being fair to Harley by calling him biased towards Pass Labs. That would indicate that he can't find any other amps appealing besides Pass, and that is not what he has indicated so far. Should we say you are biased towards Vincent, certainly not. You can still appreciate the products that other companies produce. Now our old friend RGA we could probably say was biased towards Audio Note.

Well yes I am biased towards Vincent some what. But that does not mean I cant find other amps that are just as good...because I have. I meant no disrespect.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Most hi end manufacturers make several amps...preamps... and so on, in different audio classes. You have entry level all the way up to the highest you can go. So when you talk about the very highest you can go, take Pass Labs Xs300 which retails at $85,000 a pair. And take the Audionet Max mono block amps which retails for $26k a pair. You would think the Pass Labs was in a different league, but not so. The price does not always dictate what class or league a component is in. And there are always trade offs on what different gear in the same calss can do....its always a trade off....no one component is perfect at what it can do. Here is a review of a few amps including the Pass and Audionet among a few others....mind you, its about a few years old, but you get the idea of what I am getting at. All the amps perform in the same league and class. Scroll down to where it says AMP II MAX monoblocks vs. other mighty power amps


and you can see what the finding were in a shoot out....Pass Labs included.

Innerworld Audio - Audionet Amp Max Monoblocks

Frenchmon, I was only comparing the amps that I've heard. The Krell Evolution 2250e, the Ayre V-5xe, and the Bryston 4B-SST2. These are all in the $8,000 to $5000 range.

[harley .guy07]

Frenchmon, I was only comparing the amps that I've heard. The Krell Evolution 2250e, the Ayre V-5xe, and the Bryston 4B-SST2. These are all in the $8,000 to $5000 range.

you are very right. My problem with this comparison was the fact that the person was comparing Audionet reference cream of the crop amps against amps that were not the best that these particular companies put out and most were not even in the same price class as the Audionet Mono blocks. If he would have put Pass XA mono blocks up against the Audionet amps then it would have been a much more realistic comparison. It would be the same kind of comparison if I took my Pass amp and compared it to an Emotiva XPA-2 or something like that, it would have power for sure but my Pass would stomp it otherwise. I just like comparisons that are fair to begin with.