Need advice for a warmer amp

[WmAx]

It is the high impedence nature of the plate circuit and the limitations of the output transformer which IMO give vacuum tube amplfiers their characteristic sound. Hysterisis and eddy current losses are something you rarely hear about in vacuum tube amplifier performance. This can compromise the high end. Not only is the frequency response much less linear for tube amplifiers, much more dependent on the load, and the distortion levels much higher, but the effective damping factor, the ability of the amplifier to cope with back emf and control the motion of the speaker cones especially from large poor or marginally damped woofers is much worse. The tonal result is often an indistinct treble and a boomy bass. If this is what is meant by warmer, I prefer cooler.

The net result is frequency response differential and distortion differences. In an ideal tube design, an adquate transformer should be used to retain a linear frequency response(low output imedance). The tube gain stages should not be designed to operate into audible thresholds of distortion. Of course, both of these problems seem common. The frequency response difference of a poorly damped output stage is directly addressable with E.Q., the distortion(if present) is not easily addressed.

-Chris

[Sounds88]

Demetrio,
just bought an older hybrid tube amp, it's a luxman Lv-103 , hard to believe it's 20 years old and it sounds so much better than an old Dynaco st-70 or scott 222 that I was using. The Lv-103 sound is warm , full and lush. I have had yamaha receivers and denon recievers. Btw , I have some inexpensive B&W 603's. My 2 cents.

[hifitommy]

WmAx: "I can not read your mind, so I don't know what you mean by 'high quality'. However, assuming you mean low noise, low distortion and powerful tone shaping abilities, the Behringer DEQ2496 is an excellent 'high quality' device. At it's price, and with it's incredible performance, I recommend this device as often as possible."

you hit the nail on the head as to what i mean by high quality. and BTW, how much is the behringer? if theres an affordable parametric out there, lets find it.

power supplies can be beefy without putting out great amounts of power. if i am not mistaken, john atkinson used a 50wpc krell for a few years as a reference in his personal system. krells have massive power supplies. BAT is another company that utilizes brute force power supplies, even in their preamps. products like that have VERY solid sound.

[WmAx]

you hit the nail on the head as to what i mean by high quality. and BTW, how much is the behringer? if theres an affordable parametric out there, lets find it.

The Behringer DEQ2496 is approx. $400 USD. Here is one for $340:

http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--BEHDEQ2496

I don't specifically recommend the retailer. This is just the first link google gave me.

It also is extremely flexible for end-use. You can use the unit in digital domain purely, inputing your digital stream, having all modifications done digitally and then outputting the digital stream to your favorite D/A convertor. Alternatively, it can operate as a D/A, A/D/A or an A/D convertor. Your choices are many.

As skeptic warns, it is difficult/time consuming to set up an E.Q. to enhance sound quality. The Behringer features a 31 band/channel graphic eq, 10 band/channel parametric eq and 3 band dynamic eq per/channel.

power supplies can be beefy without putting out great amounts of power

.

That is true. I was referring to the limiting of an amplifier stage by insufficient power supply. With the inverse, the output power is limited by the amplifier stage, as you note.

-Chris

[hifitommy]

[QUOTE=WmAx]The Behringer DEQ2496 is approx. $400 USD. Here is one for $340:

http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--BEHDEQ2496


it sounds MORE than flexible.

one further note, premium components on the boards will also improve and have a distinct effect on the overall sound, bringing one closer to the original sound. this is an area where the liquidity of the sound occurs, hence a perhaps warmer sound, that is, closer to the truth.

[skeptic]

Having given some time to think about what you said, I have to agree. The poor damping by some tube amplifiers can be overcome through equalization and when properly used, a parametric equalizer is the ideal tool for the job. Similarly, any rolloff at the high end and other frequency response irregularities should also be possible to be overcome using an equalizer. Of course this is all within the power bandwidth limitations of any particular amplifier and it cannot overcome non linear distortion. With effort, a fine vacuum tube amplifier should sound about as good as a fine solid state amplifier with no significant audible difference.

[hifitommy]

Having given some time to think about what you said, I have to agree. The poor damping by some tube amplifiers can be overcome through equalization and when properly used, a parametric equalizer is the ideal tool for the job. Similarly, any rolloff at the high end and other frequency response irregularities should also be possible to be overcome using an equalizer. Of course this is all within the power bandwidth limitations of any particular amplifier and it cannot overcome non linear distortion. With effort, a fine vacuum tube amplifier should sound about as good as a fine solid state amplifier with no significant audible difference.

tubes and ss sound more alike than different. so, yes, with effort, a fine ss amp should sound about as good as a fine tubed amp, with no significant difference.

[Sounds88]

Hi,
I"m not a stereo snob, but like good sounds , I cannot afford Rotel, Bryston, Musical Fidelity or McIntosh. I"d say to listen to a tube amp or hybrid tube amp. Last week, I swapped out my denon av1400 for a 20 year old Luxman Lv-103 hybrid tube amp and I just love the sound. The Bass is deep and the highs are clear and smooth, not harsh, and the soundstage sounds more lush, more liquid. Definitely more "presence" in the music. Some say it's due to more IM distortion as solid state parts filter out the distortion, strangely, some distortion appears to be good. Not sure, about the distortion stuff, except the tubes seem to sound warmer and I paid under 200 USD on Ebay. I use B&W 602, two way speakers that are Bi-wired with heavy monster cable, with a denon 5 cd changer. I listen to Jazz and soft rock. I have had dynaco st-70 tube amp and a yamaha Rx-7 receiver, neither has the warm, lush sound of my Luxman Lv-103 integrated amp.

[hifitommy]

"Some say it's due to more IM distortion as solid state parts filter out the distortion"

some will say ANYTHING to bolster their beliefs and position. i tried an arc sp3a1 that opened my ears to the fact that tubes do NOT warm everything up and make them fatter. instead, i found that tubes opened up the frequency extremes, dynamics, and firmed up the tonal colors of music.

yes, there are designs that do the very things that i mentioned first but not all tubed designs are the same or have the same effects. much of the best of tubes comes through with most tubed designs which makes their shortcomings much easier to take than those of ss designs with other flaws.