amp quality over pre-amp quality ?

[naulidge]

I the newbie have a question critical to my developing system.

I have a pair of NHT ST-4's and am looking for a good, powerful amp, maybe adcom, to match it. Currently I have a tecnics tuner/receiver/amp (yuck, spitter, gag, etc) .. I am considering keeping this and using it as my pre-amp, since it does have an A, B or no speaker option.

That being said .. what kind of a qaulity hit am I going to take using this technics as my pre-amp if I have good speakers and a good amp to go with it?

I don't understand the purpose of a pre-amp and that is of certain -partially- why I am asking this question.

I'd rather have an adcom gfa-555 with a cheap pre-amp setup than say a gfa-545 with an adcom pre-amp, does this strike you as logical?

Thanks- John

[Mr Peabody]

I hold to the truth that you cannot build an audio signal. You have to start with the best signal you can and maintain that signal the best you can throughout your system until it reaches your ears. So if you degrade your signal with a poor preamp a good power amp will not restore it. You may want to also consider integrated amps that have the pre & power sections in one box. You can't use your receiver as preamp unless you have preamp outputs. Speaker selection switch means nothing. It is a good stepping stone to use your receiver as preamp until you can afford a good preamp. That preamp will be essential though for good sound. In the same manner, you don't want to spend money on new amplification if you have a entry level cd player or other sources. You MUST have a good signal to begin with. Of course you want a balanced system but to illistrate what I am saying, I'd prefer your receiver with a $1k cd player verses an entry level cd player and $1k integrated amp. Others will debate this but they cannot change the fact that an amp will not create or restore what isn't there in the first place.

[happy ears]

I agree what Mr Peabody says above that you cannot improve on the signal quality only degrade it. Just like computers grabage in equals garbage out. If it doesn't have pre amp outputs maybe you could cheat by using a line level adapter that is available in car audio. These are used to adjust the speaker line outputs down to a level that an amplifier can use. Search the internet maybe you can find some simple plans, try ESP Elliot Sound Products it is free, good site.

The importance of a good source is overlooked by many people, I used to think that the most and only important piece was the speakers but I have changed my thinking. Speakers are first and foremost but the source is the second most important component that you buy.

Only wish that most things in life where cheaper so that more of us can enjoy the fruits .of life. I guess that whats seperates your average worker and the rich. First you need the money and then the desire to spend it to appease your ears. Mosty people are quite happy with a basic stereo, power to them. But for myself I want to hear that the band is playing in my room.

[jbangelfish]

Everyone is saying what I would say. A lousy preamp will make everything sound lousy. If your source (record or CD) is good, you need good components to get the most out of it, beginning at the beginning with a good cartridge or a good cd player. From there, the next most important is the preamp, then amp and speakers. Even great speakers can sound like crap if the components are not up to the task. There is no unimportant link in the system. I think of it in reverse from most people, it appears, start to finish with the speakers themselves being the least important. Don't misconstrue this as saying that they are not important. Each and every piece is important and speakers have the biggest sonic signature on a system just because of what they do. I am just more contented to listen to a wide variety of speaker systems as long as I know that I'm getting the most from them VIA the other components that make them do what they are capable of.
Bill

[RGA]

I agree in part with the others but cd players even entry level players today are excellent. I've been an audiophile for over a decade and have been rather impressed by the move, even in entry level cd players, on a much smoother treble region. A lot of the reason people feel the need to upgrade their cd players is more due to the fact that they own speakers with metal tweeters or a generally bright sound - they blame the cd player and not what they should be blaming - the speakers.

My Sony Changer is perfectly fine from top to bottom and while there is better to Rega Planet at $1k sure as hell isn't - it's worse. And the differences are very subtle.

Your Technics needs to have preout jacks - not an A/B speaker selector - to be able to add a power amp. If on the back there is no RCA slot that says PREOUT you cannot add a power amp. The Preout means that the technics can be used as a preamp and will output the signal to the power amp. I doubt a Technics has one.

The preamp stage is more important than the power amp and I agree with the others...that a good integrated is probably your best bet.

That is assuming your speakers are good. Cheaper cd players do in fact get ALL of the information off a cd - they may have slightly higher jitter(then again maybe not) an many expensive cd players add noise reverberation and other totally innacurate information to the chain to add a euphonic - it sounds different of course and because it comes in an expensive heavy case and a big price tag from a noted maker it is assumed before listening that it will be better. and when we assume something going in our brain tricks us into thinking it's better. Over long more objective listening we can often realize that the maker deliberately altered the sound, like Rega does, and makes the signal less accurate and even distorted. Cable makers like MIT do this as well.

In fact you would be surprised that the Sony Mega changer I was immediately planning to upgrade with an outboard DA converter turns out to be more open with a larger soundstage a smooth very extended treble region sounds better than single players from Rega, NAD, Denon - and in some ways my Cambridge Audio, YBA. DIfferent not worse.

The adcom's should be an improvement but do try before you buy.

[hifitommy]

for WAY less than $1k, you can come up with what youre looking for. you really dont have to be rich for good sound. theere are adcoms, rotels, nads, all kinds of stuff.

[DMK]

I agree in part with the others but cd players even entry level players today are excellent. I've been an audiophile for over a decade and have been rather impressed by the move, even in entry level cd players, on a much smoother treble region. A lot of the reason people feel the need to upgrade their cd players is more due to the fact that they own speakers with metal tweeters or a generally bright sound - they blame the cd player and not what they should be blaming - the speakers.

My Sony Changer is perfectly fine from top to bottom and while there is better to Rega Planet at $1k sure as hell isn't - it's worse. And the differences are very subtle.

Your Technics needs to have preout jacks - not an A/B speaker selector - to be able to add a power amp. If on the back there is no RCA slot that says PREOUT you cannot add a power amp. The Preout means that the technics can be used as a preamp and will output the signal to the power amp. I doubt a Technics has one.

The preamp stage is more important than the power amp and I agree with the others...that a good integrated is probably your best bet.

That is assuming your speakers are good. Cheaper cd players do in fact get ALL of the information off a cd - they may have slightly higher jitter(then again maybe not) an many expensive cd players add noise reverberation and other totally innacurate information to the chain to add a euphonic - it sounds different of course and because it comes in an expensive heavy case and a big price tag from a noted maker it is assumed before listening that it will be better. and when we assume something going in our brain tricks us into thinking it's better. Over long more objective listening we can often realize that the maker deliberately altered the sound, like Rega does, and makes the signal less accurate and even distorted. Cable makers like MIT do this as well.

In fact you would be surprised that the Sony Mega changer I was immediately planning to upgrade with an outboard DA converter turns out to be more open with a larger soundstage a smooth very extended treble region sounds better than single players from Rega, NAD, Denon - and in some ways my Cambridge Audio, YBA. DIfferent not worse.

The adcom's should be an improvement but do try before you buy.

Even the best speakers will be wasted if the signal from upfront isn't up to the task. However, CD players are more similar in sound than they are different. If people disagree that the speakers are the most colored component in the audio chain, I can only assume they don't have much experience with different speakers. Hell, even speakers that are considered "neutral" have different sonic signatures! Compare an electrostat with a box speaker or horns with planars or Quads against Thiels. Try that experiment with CD players.

IME, there is no simple explanation for what audio components are more "important" than others. If you have great speakers, you're probably 80% of the way home. I'd MUCH rather listen to a cheap receiver driving great speakers than great amplification driving lousy speakers. If you're into phono, your next step is the turntable and especially the arm/cartridge. If not, go directly to the preamp. I have no idea why but preamps tend to be much more colored than power amps, although with tubed products that is sometimes reversed. Assuming you have a neutral preamp and a neutral power amp and the power amp has enough juice to drive the speakers, your preamp will impose more of a sonic signature. DEAD LAST in the chain is the CD player. Sure, some of them sound different but the diffs are very subtle, as you pointed out.

IME, if you have your speakers in place and your analog front end is cookin' and your have great amplification (and assuming your speaker placement and room acoustics are maximized), you're 99% of the way home. I hate to be disagreeable with the others but I've heard too many systems where the user had followed that advice and while he was saving up for his speakers, he was gritting his teeth against the sound. If he had bought great speakers, he would have had substandard but listenable sound. His fancy new CD player and amp will NOT make his crappy speakers sound anything but just as crappy as they did before. If someone has to scrimp for awhile, it's the CD player they should scrimp on.

To the original poster: I'd use the Technics as a power amp before I'd used it as a preamp. However, it probably can't be configured in any way other than as both. So I'd take Hifitommy's suggestion and look for good used separates or a good integrated amp on audiogon.

[E-Stat]

I'd rather have an adcom gfa-555 with a cheap pre-amp setup than say a gfa-545 with an adcom pre-amp, does this strike you as logical?

What are your sources? Another approach to consider is to banish the preamp altogether if you listen primarily to high level sources like FM and CD. I use an inexpensive DIY passive attenuator with a Threshold amp for my vintage garage system. It is inexpensive and beats the pants off of even very good active preamps. The downside, of course, is manual source switching. When I go from tuner to CD, I must move the ICs from one unit to another.

rw