Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

[3LB]

perhaps you shouldn't reproduce...boy, talk about beating around the bush...

heh heh heh

It's there, in bold print, with a nice link, but that may take a little effort and thinking.

man, yer posts reek of effort

[02audionoob]

Audionoob, I apologize if my last post sounded like I was trying to start a fight. That was not my intent.

Just as an objective observation…not an intent of my own to start something…I believe your comments definitely warranted a reply.

You never actually say that Christians try to impose their beliefs on others. What you say is that Atheists complain of it. There is no comparison between opposing beliefs here, only inference of what you think Atheists complain about.

I would say you’re disregarding critical context. I was speaking in response to the implication that the Christians have a history of imposing their beliefs on others…and conceding that point. My point was to say neither side is innocent.

Well, I read it as a stereotype. And I've reread it and it still sounds like a stereotype. So either it was one or the other.

Based on the personal experiences you’ve described maybe your reaction was affected by what you expected my comments to mean, rather than what they really mean.
　
As bobsticks notes, I’m entitled to stand up for what I believe…which might be quite different than you’d expect. And you, of course, are entitled to object to it.

[ForeverAutumn]

As bobsticks notes, I’m entitled to stand up for what I believe…which might be quite different than you’d expect. And you, of course, are entitled to object to it.

Absolutely! The freedom to say and think as we like. Freedom. That's what this entire thread comes down to.

[Mr Peabody]

If I may, in defense of Christianity, "imposing" it, is wrong according to doctrine. One is to submit to the will of God, if that person is persecuted and then submits, they really aren't submitting to God they are submitting to the persecutor. Jesus instructed the apostles to spread the Word but if they go into a town where no one will listen to dust off their feet and leave. No where in the New Testament which is binding on people in these times do you see "imposing". If any one was persecuted it was Jews and Christians. This is only referring to the writing in the New Testament. God gave us free will who is any man to try and take it away? Well, that is if one believes in God.

One can call themselves what they will but it don't make it so. History is full of much evil that was done in the name of Christianity. The thing about the Bible is the same with any book if you cherry pick lines here and there you can make it say pretty much what you want. To understand a book it has to be taken complete and in context, it does help to grasp the intended meaning.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

If I may, in defense of Christianity, "imposing" it, is wrong according to doctrine. One is to submit to the will of God, if that person is persecuted and then submits, they really aren't submitting to God they are submitting to the persecutor. Jesus instructed the apostles to spread the Word but if they go into a town where no one will listen to dust off their feet and leave. No where in the New Testament which is binding on people in these times do you see "imposing". If any one was persecuted it was Jews and Christians. This is only referring to the writing in the New Testament. God gave us free will who is any man to try and take it away? Well, that is if one believes in God.

Just wading in here...this is absolutely correct. And when you find Christians trying to impose their will (see the works of the Catholic Church) they are out of the will of God

One can call themselves what they will but it don't make it so. History is full of much evil that was done in the name of Christianity. The thing about the Bible is the same with any book if you cherry pick lines here and there you can make it say pretty much what you want. To understand a book it has to be taken complete and in context, it does help to grasp the intended meaning.

Also correct. However there is a dangerous undercurrent that is floating amongst the current church. The "literal" interpretation of scripture when it was meant for symbolic, and the reverse. Another disease is the pious judgement of others, when that is not our place. We are constantly displacing what is historical, and placing it wrongfully into the present. For instance, in the old testament, God commanded the children of Israel to destroy their enemies, man, women and children. To use this as a justification for war today would completely ignore the loving words of Jesus Christ found in John 13:34,35, John 15:12 and 17, Romans 12:10 and Romans 13:8. George W. Bush who was supposed to be a Godly man, did this at least twice, and was probably the best cherry picker in my lifetime.

[3LB]

Oh...playing the irregardless card now are we...

[bobsticks]

Oh...playing the irregardless card now are we...

LMAO...between that and the "beating around the bush" I'd give you a greenie if I could.

[nightflier]

Wild goose chase? Hardly, it's pretty plain in your posts: your fear-mongering about the spread of Islam smacks of the same extreme views that were used to justify the most heinous crimes of the last century. The whites against the blacks in South Africa, the Turks against the Armenians, the Khmer Rouge against the Buddhists, the Chinese government against Tibetans, The Japanese against the Koreans, and yes, the Nazis against Jews and "Slavic peoples". It's scapegoating of the worst kind and you're slipping down a very slippery slope with those statements. The part about fornicating our way out of it, is certainly not original, either. It's been said before and with horrid consequences.

More importantly, your opinions create hysteria about something that is truly very remote. The idea that we will one day have Sharia law here in the States is ludicrous. Likewise, the idea that Sharia law will be the law of the land in Britain is also extremely distant. I've been to England, talked to people there, read the papers, and while there are certainly concerns about the growing Muslim population, they are still only a small percentage:

Total population = just under 50M
Muslim population = 2.4M

By the way, 85% of the people there are also white (Indo-European), in case that was bothering you, too. But this is a broad brush, we're painting with, because of those 2.4M Muslims, only a small portion practice or agree with Sharia law, and an even smaller number believe in violent terrorism as a means of advancing their beliefs. And by small number, I'm talking about an extremely small fraction of the Muslim population. As a matter of fact, the British security forces have been relying heavily on cooperation from secular Muslims and they have done a remarkable job of policing their own extremists. There are still terrorist attacks, yes, but they hardly represent the views or methods of the vast majority of Muslims there.

Let's also remember that the event described in the original post did not occur in England at all. It occurred in the Sudan, which is not only a country at war, but a good portion of that war is being waged between Christians and Muslims. This fact must also be on the minds of the people involved, from the victims all the way up to the judges and the government and therefore affects their decisions. I'm sure if we went to any other war-torn place around the world (there are lots to choose from, these days), we would find some pretty objectionable cruelty there as well.

Therefore, I consider your point of view, not only extreme, but also incendiary. Now I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion about it, but by the same token your post also should be responded to with actual facts rather than hysteria. When it comes to Religion, history has shown us over & over again that the most effective and lasting solution is a peaceful one. A call to arms isn't going to do anything but light the proverbial powederkeg. This is not a liberal point of view, BTW, it is a factual one.

[markw]

Geez, you sure do love to dig up irrelevant bullshiite and try to throw it at people, don't ya?

It's amazing at how you ignore what doesn't suit you and you just go on digging up more random crap, sorta like the energizer bunny of bullshiite,

Look how well you're doing with mexicans in southern california. Who runs that again?

[bobsticks]

By the way, 85% of the people there are also white (Indo-European), in case that was bothering you, too. But this is a broad brush, we're painting with, because of those 2.4M Muslims, only a small portion practice or agree with Sharia law, and an even smaller number believe in violent terrorism as a means of advancing their beliefs. And by small number, I'm talking about an extremely small fraction of the Muslim population. As a matter of fact, the British security forces have been relying heavily on cooperation from secular Muslims and they have done a remarkable job of policing their own extremists. There are still terrorist attacks, yes, but they hardly represent the views or methods of the vast majority of Muslims there.

Strangely, i find myself in alignment with 'flier on this one. I have known a great many people that were of the Muslim faith and very few came close to observing the strict laws of "proper Shiara" (and I agree with T that it has largely ben perverted to meet the political needs of certain leaders)

That occurance in Britain needs to be one that is replicated throughout the world. If there is one criticism that can be levied against moderate Muslims it's their reluctance to stand against the extremist fringe.

[nightflier]

Well you're the one who brought up England and the growth of Islam there, no?

[markw]

Well you're the one who brought up England and the growth of Islam there, no?

And, by your own words, you "got bored" looking through the results of the google search I suggested.

Ignorance is bliss, eh? Or is that your attempt at "plausible deniability"?

Oh, I get it! You didn't even bother to do the search!

You don't bother to read what others post. You just keep spewing forth your verbal diarrhea in the hopes you'll elicit a response and further derail the subject!

Do you really crave attention that badly?

[3LB]

You just keep spewing forth your verbal diarrhea in the hopes you'll elicit a response and further derail the subject!

so what's he guilty of...beating us to it






np: new Muse!

[markw]

so what's he guilty of...beating us to it

I answered your concerns in post 54. Try to keep up, will ya? ...or back to the "special" bus for you.

BTW, I do give you credit for sanding up to Feanor with his Texas/Alabama comparison to Afghanistan. Maybe there's hope for you yet.

[nightflier]

Look, you brought it up, and through your posts a pretty dark side poked through. I'm just pointing it out.

[markw]

Look, you brought it up, and through your posts a pretty dark side poked through. I'm just pointing it out.

Are you saying that it cannot happen here?

Are you saying that we should face the future fat, happy and stupid with eyes closed to the possibilities?

Remember, it's already gained a foothold in England and was recently voted down in Canada. Europe seems poised too. That bulge on the side of the tent just might be the camel.

[nightflier]

Remember, it's already gained a foothold in England and was recently voted down in Canada. Europe seems poised too. That bulge on the side of the tent just might be the camel.

Nonsense. Are you just willfully ignoring the numbers?

[markw]

Nonsense. Are you just willfully ignoring the numbers?

Not now, but check af those numbers a few years down the road.

Didn't you read ANYTHING I posted?

[nightflier]

All that we know is what is true now. The links you posted make predictions based in hysteria. They repeatedly interchange terms like foreign-born, Muslim, and Sharia law to make the supposed threat that much more fantastic. And the sources are right up your alley, too, from overly conservative and paranoid sources. Look, I can find sources that make all sorts of amazing predictions on the net, and they will still be just predictions from debatable sources. What we do know is that Muslims make up a small fraction of the population in England and other Western countries (between 2 & 4%, in most cases). Likewise, the numbers of those who practice of Sharia law is a fraction of that, and of those, the ones who participate in violence is infinitesimally small.

You are just fear-mongering, plain and simple and it comes from a rather disturbing political position. You are just ignoring the facts and letting your paranoia dictate your judgment.

[markw]

All that we know is what is true now. The links you posted make predictions based in hysteria. They repeatedly interchange terms like foreign-born, Muslim, and Sharia law to make the supposed threat that much more fantastic. And the sources are right up your alley, too, from overly conservative and paranoid sources. Look, I can find sources that make all sorts of amazing predictions on the net, and they will still be just predictions from debatable sources. What we do know is that Muslims make up a small fraction of the population in England and other Western countries (between 2 & 4%, in most cases). Likewise, the numbers of those who practice of Sharia law is a fraction of that, and of those, the ones who participate in violence is infinitesimally small.

You are just fear-mongering, plain and simple and it comes from a rather disturbing political position. You are just ignoring the facts and letting your paranoia dictate your judgment.

Are you saying that it cannot happen here?

Are you saying that we should face the future fat, happy and stupid with eyes closed to the possibilities?

Remember, it's already gained a foothold in England (read the postd link!) and was recently voted down in Canada. Europe seems poised too. That bulge on the side of the tent just might be the camel.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

All that we know is what is true now. The links you posted make predictions based in hysteria. They repeatedly interchange terms like foreign-born, Muslim, and Sharia law to make the supposed threat that much more fantastic. And the sources are right up your alley, too, from overly conservative and paranoid sources. Look, I can find sources that make all sorts of amazing predictions on the net, and they will still be just predictions from debatable sources. What we do know is that Muslims make up a small fraction of the population in England and other Western countries (between 2 & 4%, in most cases). Likewise, the numbers of those who practice of Sharia law is a fraction of that, and of those, the ones who participate in violence is infinitesimally small.

You are just fear-mongering, plain and simple and it comes from a rather disturbing political position. You are just ignoring the facts and letting your paranoia dictate your judgment.

I don't think your numbers are quite right. In France alone its 6-9% of the population. In Germany 4.9%. In Cyprus its 18%. Denmark its it 2-3.7%. In Belgium it's 4%. In Albania its 65-70%. Italy 1.7%. The Netherlands 5.5-6%. Sweden its 3%. Switzerland its 4%. England its 3.3%. Spain 3.3%. This is just for Western, Eastern and Southern Europe.

When combined together, that is significantly more than 2-4%. France alone exceeds that. That is not to say these are all sharia law practicioners, but just the Muslim populations in these individual countries.

It is VERY widely believed that no country really practices Sharia law. What they practice now is a Sharia law interpreted solely by weak males looking to keep control of women and children. The real Sharia laws do not do that. This Sharia law we are seeing is a bastardized version of the original.

This is a hard one to call. When one religious group migrates to another country, and then demands that their laws guide their own people in that country, it does give the impression of a law hijack, and ultimately leads to more demands of control. As the migrating population increases, and the native population decreases, a takeover can happen, and if radical enough, with the population permissive enough, it will happen. Any where there are freedoms, this possibility does exist, and one cannot discount it.

Then of course there is the paranoia of the other side to consider as well.

We have seen it in Britian, France, and Canada.

[nightflier]

Well my figures where from Wikipedia, but now that I've double-checked them, they are a bit older. That said, we're still talking about percentages that are very small. Even the fascist parties in those countries outnumber them significantly.

Point is, I'm not too worried, I'm not planning on having lotsa babies because of it, and I'm certainly not going to put guns in the hands of my children for that reason. This supposed fear of Islam is so overblown and misused that I take issue with those who perpetuate it. The numbers just don't support the implied urgency.

[markw]

Well my figures where from Wikipedia, but now that I've double-checked them, they are a bit older. That said, we're still talking about percentages that are very small. Even the fascist parties in those countries outnumber them significantly.

Point is, I'm not too worried, I'm not planning on having lotsa babies because of it, and I'm certainly not going to put guns in the hands of my children for that reason. This supposed fear of Islam is so overblown and misused that I take issue with those who perpetuate it. The numbers just don't support the implied urgency.

I can just imagine you as a Native American saying such stuff as a group of them watches the arriving ships carrying the first Europeans.

Ever see the movie "Idiocracy? Check out the red/blue distribution of cities within states for the 2008 presidantal vote and tell me if you see a pattern. This might take a bit of thought, being you're a dyed-in-the-wool bleeding heart liberal and tend to be blind to the stark truth but, you might be able to figure out the connection of the thoughts contained in this paragraph, if you try hard enough.

..and that's not why the boys own guns, silly man. You really do like your straw men, doncha? But, you don't want to break into their homes or try to harm their family, trust me,

[atomicAdam]

I think this thread should get moved into the cage and you all should calm down a bit if not just back away.

[3LB]

As the migrating population increases, and the native population decreases, a takeover can happen, and if radical enough, with the population permissive enough, it will happen.

Yes, that's true - white European decendants living in North America is proof of that...I'm still waiting to see what it is we're suppose to do about it (whomever 'we' is).