Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

[nightflier]

Really... I'd sure like to know how the little woman felt about this. After all, that is a fairly misogynistic society and I can see why you wouldn't be bothered by It.

It's all about doing as the Romans do, rather than doing as American tourists do. You should travel more, it might be enlightening.

dunno. But in hindsight it was a mistake. But, many countries provided intelligence to support it.

What? Iraq 2.0 was the single biggest political & military blunder since Vietnam and all you can say is "dunno"? Maybe that should be something you give a little more thought. Ahem, many countries provided intelligence about the terrorist having anything to do with Iraq??? Name one.

Now you're saying that all saudis were involved? Interesting conspiracy theory. Maybe it was for their safety?

Where did I say that they were all involved? The point is, why did they need to leave in a hurry and couldn't anyone stop them from leaving. Gee, citizens from country A just attacked country B, and the very next day, 200+ people from country A are allowed to leave when no one, absolutely no one else is? Doesn't that bother you just a tad? For their safety??? I distinctly remember reading in the papers that our security agencies had some very important questions to ask several of these "special" individuals, questions related to fund-raising and other shady stuff. You're kidding me with these questions, aren't you?

Hindsight is 20/20, isn't it? The clues to finding the killer in a good mystery novel is always obvious when one gets to the end, isn't it?

Hindsight? It was a mess before, during and well after. I already mentioned the questionable stuff that happened before. And afterwards, investigators were hindered for months trying to figure out what happened. Many key people in the investigation resigned, were fired or re-assigned. Doesn't it bother you just a tad that we suffered the worst attack on American soil since the Brits were last here and we retaliate against the wrong country, we are prevented from finding out what happened at every turn by high-level co-conspirators and traitors in our own government, and our own president boldly lied to the world about it all? Yes, I know presidents lie about spots on dresses, but jeez, those are certainly some rose-colored glasses you see the world through.

I'm glad to hear that, but what "green light" are you referring to? Who do you think gave it? Please share and offer some proof. I'm curious.

I thought I was pretty clear. The FBI finds out that radical Saudi nationals are wanting to learn how to fly but not land or take off. They send their concerns up the chain of command, and then are told this is OK? That's a pretty big f'ing green light, if you ask me. Then some 4/5ths of personnel assigned to defend against terrorist attacks by the Clinton Administration are "reassigned" to Iraq just months before the attacks? Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty big friggin' green light too, don't you think? The the FBI notes that major investment firms are dumping their stocks just days before, and again they are told to find other things to focus on. How many more green lights do you need?

MAybe sharia law has nothing to do with it. Maybe it IS all the muslims over there being allowed to run around unchecked.

You seem to be confusing Sharia law with Muslim immigration and suggesting that one invariably is a consequence of the other. That's a bit of a stretch. The vast majority of Muslims immigrants are of the more progressive variety, but as with any population, there are extremists and so yes, they are there too. But why should Muslims be "checked"? Maybe you'd have them wear a yellow crescent on their clothes too? Just to make sure they could be "checked" if they should suddenly turn terrorist, of course.

**************************************8

It's not just Americans that have to do the changing. You don't think the mindful pawns of the powerbrokers in other states need to stop preaching hate. I don't think it's a coincidence that the largest growing sectors of the fringe elements of religion come from economically poor areas and prisons.

And who was primarily responsible for creating that reality? Ever heard of blow back? Not to throw more Chomsky your way, but when a colonial power so dominates and squeezes other states, it's not always possible for the dominated states to give much more. The colonial power, on the other hand, should have plenty to give and this would probably be relatively painless to do. More importantly, the dominant power being the architect of the situation, has a moral obligation to do so. There are hate-mongers on both sides, but when the one side also has everything from nuclear weapons to death squads at its disposal, their hate-mongering (Dobbs, Limbaugh, Coulter, there's a long list...) carries a whole lot more weight.

Perhaps 911 has some similarities with the Kennedy Assassination, but that is precisely why we should be asking these questions. Unless you believe that a bullet can change trajectory in mid air, Kennedy was not killed by Oswald, that's pretty much a given, and the fact that any other possibilities are dismissed as conspiracy theories, pretty much leaves that generation holding the questions in their hands indefinitely. I would like to hope that we've progressed a bit further as a society and could start to face some of the difficult questions surrounding our big event.

This has nothing to do with being progressive or conservative either. There will always be nut jobs on both sides who will believe and preach the most unlikely scenarios, but somewhere in the middle lies the truth. Rather than also dumping all this uncertainty into the proverbial dustbin of history and create another disaffected generation with its associated social consequences, I think we owe it to our generation to ask the questions and answer them. Nay, it's not so much the Kennedy Assassination of our generation as it is an American Reichstag. The parallels with Nazi Germany are disturbingly numerous, don't you think? In the words of the perpetual philosopher figure: this has all happened before.

[bobsticks]

And who was primarily responsible for creating that reality? Ever heard of blow back? Not to throw more Chomsky your way, but when a colonial power so dominates and squeezes other states, it's not always possible for the dominated states to give much more. The colonial power, on the other hand, should have plenty to give and this would probably be relatively painless to do. More importantly, the dominant power being the architect of the situation, has a moral obligation to do so. There are hate-mongers on both sides, but when the one side also has everything from nuclear weapons to death squads at its disposal, their hate-mongering (Dobbs, Limbaugh, Coulter, there's a long list...) carries a whole lot more weight.

Economic partnership doesn't equate to the physical realities of insurgency and colonialism. We buy a product. They sell that product and make a huge profit from it but, in turn, do nothing to take care of the 99% of the population not profiting from the gold in the desert. What they do, however, is in order to ameliorate a population that is everyday groing younger and poorer is refocus their anger.

I'm surprised in your many travels it never dawned on you that a majority of the leaders in the Middle East are quite secular.

Perhaps 911 has some similarities with the Kennedy Assassination, but that is precisely why we should be asking these questions. Unless you believe that a bullet can change trajectory in mid air, Kennedy was not killed by Oswald, that's pretty much a given, and the fact that any other possibilities are dismissed as conspiracy theories, pretty much leaves that generation holding the questions in their hands indefinitely. I would like to hope that we've progressed a bit further as a society and could start to face some of the difficult questions surrounding our big event. .

Actually, every bullet changes direction midflight...every single on of them. The degree of that change can be altered by barrel modifications, changing or coating the jacket, hot-rodding grain loads and, of course, natural issues like windsheer.

I agree that Oswald was a toady and that there is certainly some element of conspiracy involved in that incident, it's just that the words you typed do nothing to elevate your argument.

This has nothing to do with being progressive or conservative either. There will always be nut jobs on both sides who will believe and preach the most unlikely scenarios, but somewhere in the middle lies the truth. Rather than also dumping all this uncertainty into the proverbial dustbin of history and create another disaffected generation with its associated social consequences, I think we owe it to our generation to ask the questions and answer them. Nay, it's not so much the Kennedy Assassination of our generation as it is an American Reichstag. The parallels with Nazi Germany are disturbingly numerous, don't you think? In the words of the perpetual philosopher figure: this has all happened before.

I appreciate the way that you waited some years before converting a national tragedy into an implication of the corruption of the American system. Perhaps you should visit a Fire Department or Police Precinct in NYC and share your views.

[nightflier]

I'm surprised in your many travels it never dawned on you that a majority of the leaders in the Middle East are quite secular.

Secular towards conservative Islamic movements, yes, at least for most countries. But that hardly makes them model leaders because they still imprison, torture, and execute more dissidents than in any state in the world. I'm not blind to the fact that conservative Islam is the backbone for their opposition, but like so many issues we're covering here, this isn't as black & white as some here would like it to be.

Actually, every bullet changes direction midflight...every single on of them. The degree of that change can be altered by barrel modifications, changing or coating the jacket, hot-rodding grain loads and, of course, natural issues like windsheer.

Isn't that a making a mountain out of a grassy knoll? You're talking about mild fluctuations in directions, but the kind turn Oswald's single bullet had to have made could not have occurred by barrel modifications or hot-rodding grain loads. And why would Oswald do any of that? Sticks, let's not start fabricating plausibilities Limbaugh-style, now. How did you put that so elegantly again? Oh yes, and I quote: "it's just that the words you typed do nothing to elevate your argument."

I appreciate the way that you waited some years before converting a national tragedy into an implication of the corruption of the American system. Perhaps you should visit a Fire Department or Police Precinct in NYC and share your views.

You appreciate that? Uh, yeah.

Obviously the NYC police and fire departments bore much of the brunt of the aftermath of the attack (calling it a tragedy sort of whitewashes it, IMO). So yes, the expectation on a political level is that they would be pretty resistant to any suggestions that there was some home-grown participation and neglect on the part of our own officials. Yet, after having experienced first-hand this same administration's continued neglect of the concerns from victims, injured officers, firemen, construction workers and their families, that black & white distinction is not so clear anymore. The fact is, there is widespread discontent in the NYPD and NYFD with the administration's flip-flopping and back-tracking on recognizing their sacrifices.

By the way, you never answered my question: what is so blatantly false about Chomsky's research?

[bobsticks]

Secular towards conservative Islamic movements, yes, at least for most countries. But that hardly makes them model leaders because they still imprison, torture, and execute more dissidents than in any state in the world. I'm not blind to the fact that conservative Islam is the backbone for their opposition, but like so many issues we're covering here, this isn't as black & white as some here would like it to be.

Thank you for proving my point though "conservative" Islam is not their backbone...greed is . Moreover, "extremist' or "fundamentalist" Islam is the issue, but I appreciate how you tried to may a symbiotic connection between one thing, universally despised in the educated world, and a second thing, a modern political movement that you use as a basis for your anti-Americanism.

For the last few months of his life my grandfather's personal physician had the dubious distinction of having been responsible for maintaining Saadam whilst he was awaiting trail. From his accounts I can assure you that the man was a fixer, a dealer, and a powerbroker...and from the accounts of this accomplished man I can tell you that the same is true throughout the leadership of that blighted part of the world.

Simply put, yer boys need to stop tellin' their boys to kill oyr boys...

Isn't that a making a mountain out of a grassy knoll? You're talking about mild fluctuations in directions, but the kind turn Oswald's single bullet had to have made could not have occurred by barrel modifications or hot-rodding grain loads. And why would Oswald do any of that? Sticks, let's not start fabricating plausibilities Limbaugh-style, now. How did you put that so elegantly again? Oh yes, and I quote: "it's just that the words you typed do nothing to elevate your argument."

Um, no...it isn't...I can make a .338 Lapua round skip across water or a .223/5.56 military round ricochet off concrete at will. Moreover, what you meant was the "angle at which the shot was placed" was inconceivable...at least by Oswald...

...and you seem to have overlooked the fact that I agreed with you that it seemed implausible given the circumstances.

By the way, you never answered my question: what is so blatantly false about Chomsky's research?

Cuz I don't have to. The original point of this thread was the specifics of a case involving Sharia Law and it's results within the modern context. The fact that you've managed to pull it so far off-topic and involve Islam as a whole and your references of an archaic worldview aren't compelling.

Btw, since you've mentioned to reference, and imply, a connection between Limbaugh and I...lemme say this: the fact that you could mistake me for a far right-winger is lamentable but, further, the fact that you would imply that the Far-Right of this country and their admittedly morose invective could be in any way commensurate with the evil of the Moulahs in the Madrassahs is pathetic.

I've yet to see Limbaugh, Coulter, et al. criticized for having arranged a bombing of a Mosque, a discotheque, or a pizzeria...no matter how much I may disavow their stances.