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They talkin about religion in this cage....I'm gettin outta here!!!
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Originally Posted by recoveryone
I guess that is where Faith comes into play, just as why is the sky blue and clouds are white, just take it as faith that just the way it is.
I can understand faith and support those who want to have that faith. But it was written by men. They may or may not have been truly inspired by God. I rule nothing out.
As far and the white clouds and blue skies, I don’t need faith for those. The reasons have been proven.
I wish people would stop fighting over who's faith is best though.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
They talkin about religion in this cage....I'm gettin outta here!!!
RUN!
RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally Posted by recoveryone
I guess that is where Faith comes into play,.
That of course is your faith and my faith is different. People have the choice to have no faith. I do not know who is right but I live my life as I see fit.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
They talkin about religion in this cage....I'm gettin outta here!!!
We're talking nicely though.:devil:
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Originally Posted by GMichael
I can understand faith and support those who want to have that faith. But it was written by men. They may or may not have been truly inspired by God. I rule nothing out.
As far and the white clouds and blue skies, I don’t need faith for those. The reasons have been proven.
I wish people would stop fighting over who's faith is best though.
Virtually all pious Muslims believe that the Qu'ran is the literal and infallible word of God.
In case of the Bible, virtually all Christians recognize that it was written by at various times by various people, presumably inspired by God. Furthermore it is recognized by most, (or at least very many), Christians that we don't have the original text of the Bible but only transcriptions and translation that might include various inaccuracies.
The situation is different with the Qu'ran. This book was written in a short span of time, (a decade or two). The generally unquestioned belief is that the Angel Gabriel quoted the exact words of God to Mohamed who wrote them down with the help of scribes, (since Mohamed himself was illiterate). There is no issue of original text since the very early texts exist; furthermore there is no issue of translation because only the original Arabic is considered reliable.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Virtually all pious Muslims believe that the Qu'ran is the literal and infallible word of God.
In case of the Bible, virtually all Christians recognize that it was written by at various times by various people, presumably inspired by God. Furthermore it is recognized by most, (or at least very many), Christians that we don't have the original text of the Bible but only transcriptions and translation that might include various inaccuracies.
The situation is different with the Qu'ran. This book was written in a short span of time, (a decade or two). The generally unquestioned belief is that the Angel Gabriel quoted the exact words of God to Mohamed who wrote them down with the help of scribes, (since Mohamed himself was illiterate). There is no issue of original text since the very early texts exist; furthermore there is no issue of translation because only the original Arabic is considered reliable.
God told Gabriel, who told Mohamed, who told the scribes. In my mind there is still room for issues.
Way way back when I was in high school, one of our teachers wanted to prove a point to us. He went into the hall with one student and showed her a picture to memorize. He came back in with the picture and had a second student go into the hall to have the first girl describe the picture to him. The first girl came back in and then a third student went out. By time we got to the 5th student, the description of the picture sounded nothing like what was actually in the picture.
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Originally Posted by GMichael
God told Gabriel, who told Mohamed, who told the scribes. In my mind there is still room for issues.
....
You might think that, I might think that ... but pious Muslims do not. :D
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Originally Posted by GMichael
God told Gabriel, who told Mohamed, who told the scribes. In my mind there is still room for issues.
Way way back when I was in high school, one of our teachers wanted to prove a point to us. He went into the hall with one student and showed her a picture to memorize. He came back in with the picture and had a second student go into the hall to have the first girl describe the picture to him. The first girl came back in and then a third student went out. By time we got to the 5th student, the description of the picture sounded nothing like what was actually in the picture.
Hmmmm. The bible by broken telephone. Interesting.
GM, check out a board game called Scribblish. The game is based on exactly what your teacher did. It's hilarious to play and something that I bet your wife would love, from what I know about her. It's perfect for your Xmas eve all-nighters.
http://www.hasbro.com/play/details.c...8B2&src=endeca
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Originally Posted by Feanor
You might think that, I might think that ... but pious Muslims do not. :D
I respect their right to think that. Most of them probably respect my right not to. But it's always the few who f'k it up for everyone else.
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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
Hmmmm. The bible by broken telephone. Interesting.
GM, check out a board game called Scribblish. The game is based on exactly what your teacher did. It's hilarious to play and something that I bet your wife would love, from what I know about her. It's perfect for your Xmas eve all-nighters.
http://www.hasbro.com/play/details.c...8B2&src=endeca
I'm sure she would love it. But will I?
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Originally Posted by GMichael
I'm sure she would love it. But will I?
If she's happy then you're happy, so...yes.
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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
If she's happy then you're happy, so...yes.
Hmmm... Female logic. I see.:p
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Originally Posted by GMichael
I respect their right to think that. Most of them probably respect my right not to. But it's always the few who f'k it up for everyone else.
As for your right not to, unfortunately very many do not.
It's sad really. The Qu'ran and traditional Islamic law in fact require that Jew and Christians be treated well and respected as people of the Abrahamic tradition. And there are many moderate and tolerant Muslims today. But there are also many, especially in places like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, who are highly intolerant.
Of course, there are growing numbers of highly intolerant Christians. I'm speaking of Fundamentalists and the "Christian Right". They are becoming politically powerful and pose, IMO, a genuine threat to democracy in the US. The North American economic malaise will tend to increase their influence as simple-mind people look for supernatural solutions to complex problems.
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Originally Posted by Feanor
As for your right not to, unfortunately very many do not.
It's sad really. The Qu'ran and traditional Islamic law in fact require that Jew and Christians be treated well and respected as people of the Abrahamic tradition. And there are many moderate and tolerant Muslims today. But there are also many, especially in places like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, who are highly intolerant.
Of course, there are growing numbers of highly intolerant Christians. I'm speaking of Fundamentalists and the "Christian Right". They are becoming politically powerful and pose, IMO, a genuine threat to democracy in the US. The North American economic malaise will tend to increase their influence as simple-mind people look for supernatural solutions to complex problems.
Good response.
I have said for a long time, for most people, their Politics is their Religion. Why do we need to judge everything based on Roe vs Wade? See last statement.
If every political decision and vote is based upon a religious belief, Feanor hit it on the head.
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My thought is that these intolerant extremists would find a way to blow each other up even if there was no such thing as religion. Religion just gives them a chance to say, “Look, I’m doing this for a noble cause.” They would still find a way to use pretzel logic to justify their actions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
As for your right not to, unfortunately very many do not.
It's sad really. The Qu'ran and traditional Islamic law in fact require that Jew and Christians be treated well and respected as people of the Abrahamic tradition. And there are many moderate and tolerant Muslims today. But there are also many, especially in places like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, who are highly intolerant.
Of course, there are growing numbers of highly intolerant Christians. I'm speaking of Fundamentalists and the "Christian Right". They are becoming politically powerful and pose, IMO, a genuine threat to democracy in the US. The North American economic malaise will tend to increase their influence as simple-mind people look for supernatural solutions to complex problems.
Yes and no. I agree with much that has been written over the past few pages and, ideed, it was my goal by posting that to spark a bit of lively discussion.
I too fear the continued rise and influence of the Far Right but let's look at events within cultural context. Christian extremists certainly inflame situations through rhetoric, often compelling and disturbing but burning an inanimate object or calling for the end of a belief system is a far cry from the actuality of killing people.
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Originally Posted by bobsticks
Yes and no. I agree with much that has been written over the past few pages and, ideed, it was my goal by posting that to spark a bit of lively discussion.
I too fear the continued rise and influence of the Far Right but let's look at events within cultural context. Christian extremists certainly inflame situations through rhetoric, often compelling and disturbing but burning an inanimate object or calling for the end of a belief system is a far cry from the actuality of killing people.
Well the Christian Right isn't killing anybody (yet), but then not all Islamic fundamentalists go so far as to kill people.
Frankly I think the Christian Right might just be a bigger threat to American than Islamists ever could be. Consider reading this book ...
Chris Hedges: American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...SH20_OU01_.jpg
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Might be an interesting read...
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Originally Posted by Feanor
Well the Christian Right isn't killing anybody (yet), but then not all Islamic fundamentalists go so far as to kill people.
Frankly I think the Christian Right might just be a bigger threat to American than Islamists ever could be...
I suppose I might be a bit more optimistic than you, my friend. I've used this phrase before but "demographics is destiny". Barely anyone in their forties and no one in their twenties or thirties that I know give a good damn about this. And, I mean that in so far as that among those age groups most recognize non-inclusive theologies for the destructive forces that they are. Hopefully as the aged and decrepit televangelists of this society die out their heirs engage in socially acceptable undertakings...like sourghum farming in Uruguay or reprocessing bong water here at home...
Of course, none of this happens if the gap between the rich and the poor continues at such a startling, unabated rate and the middle class disappears. Amazing how the abject poor flock to fundamentalist principles, isn't it? Kinda a gagng mentality...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsticks
I suppose I might be a bit more optimistic than you, my friend. I've used this phrase before but "demographics is destiny". Barely anyone in their forties and no one in their twenties or thirties that I know give a good damn about this. And, I mean that in so far as that among those age groups most recognize non-inclusive theologies for the destructive forces that they are. Hopefully as the aged and decrepit televangelists of this society die out their heirs engage in socially acceptable undertakings...like sourghum farming in Uruguay or reprocessing bong water here at home....
Demographics rule, but I'm not sure the the Christian Right is only or even predominately a middle-aged thing. I think a fair number of young people are attracted especially in the "Bible Belt". On the there hand, probably the Christian Right likely isn't attracting main from the rising Latino portion of the population ... nor, of course, any from the rising, (though relatively minute), Islamic portion.
So you, 'Sticks, move in a relatively sophisticated crowd, but you aren't -- and let me hasten to reinforce the point -- a typical person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsticks
...
Of course, none of this happens if the gap between the rich and the poor continues at such a startling, unabated rate and the middle class disappears. Amazing how the abject poor flock to fundamentalist principles, isn't it? Kinda a gagng mentality...
Abject poor not so much, rather the abjectly ignorant, stupid, and superstitious -- not all of whom are poor.
Remember what "the problem" really is ...
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...tupidWorld.jpg
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Oh look! There's me in the purple. At least I don't show up in the problem area.
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Originally Posted by GMichael
Oh look! There's me in the purple. At least I don't show up in the problem area.
No, GM, not you. But then the fact is that we all contribute to the problem to a greater or lessor extent.
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Koran-burning US pastor briefly jailed
The US pastor whose burning of a Koran sparked deadly violence in Afghanistan has been briefly jailed in a heavily Islamic suburb after a court banned his protest outside a mosque.
A local judge jailed pastor Terry Jones of Gainesville, Florida, and his associate Wayne Sapp on Friday after a court ruled that their planned protest outside the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, Michigan, could lead to violence.
In court, Jones argued that the Koran "promotes terrorist activities around the world."
He also insisted that his right to protest against Islam was protected by the US Constitution.
"The First Amendment does us no good if it confines us to saying what is popular," he said.
But Dearborn Police Chief Ronald Haddad testified that his department had received information about serious threats made against Jones from local residents, arguing that his protest could lead to violence if allowed.
Prosecutor Robert Moran argued that the protest had nothing to do with the First Amendment and that the community's security and peace were at stake.
In the end, the jury sided with the prosecution and Judge Mark Somers set bond at the symbolic amount of a dollar each for the two pastors, which they initially refused to pay.
Following their refusal, both were escorted to a local jail. But local media reported that they changed their minds after spending about an hour behind bars and posted the bond.
Under the judge's ruling, both Jones and Sapp are now prohibited by the court from going to the mosque for three years.
But Jones was quoted by The Detroit Free Press as saying the two "will come back next week" to try to organize a new protest.
Dearborn is home to the largest Muslim community in the United States. The 2000 census found the city's population to be 30 percent Arab-American.
Hundreds of local residents who rallied in front of Henry Ford Centennial Library late Friday denied they tried to silence free speech and called on residents to remain peaceful.
"We come here today not as Christians, not as Muslims, not as Jews, but as Americans," said Osama Sablani, publisher of the Dearborn-based Arab American News and one of the organizers of the rally. "We have only one flag, and it is the American flag."
Cea Noyes, a sociology and anthropology professor from Olivet College who took part in the rally, said Jones was trying to divide American.
"What he is doing is just appalling," she said.
Jones and Sapp made international headlines after their ceremonial "trial and execution" of the Koran by burning the Islamic holy book on March 20 at his Florida church that led to deadly protests in Afghanistan.
Seven UN staff were killed during one protest in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif on April 1. Overall, more than 20 people have been killed.
Jones believes Islam and the Koran promote intolerance and violence.
Following the killing of UN peacekeepers, the evangelical pastor said he and his supporters demanded action from the United Nations.
"Islam is not a religion of peace," he said in an earlier statement. "The time has come to hold Islam accountable."
He said that Muslim-dominated countries could no longer be allowed to spread their hatred against Christians and minorities.
"They must alter the laws that govern their countries to allow for individual freedoms and rights, such as the right to worship, free speech, and to move freely without fear of being attacked or killed," he stated.
Jones had long threatened to burn the Koran despite warnings that it would put American troops and others in Afghanistan in danger.
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Thanks for posting that FA. Could someone explain to me what is christian about travelling from Florida to Dearborn to harrass a group of people and their beliefs. Back to the days of the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc. and see how bloody christianity has been. If acts of violence are reasons to burn a book......
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Originally Posted by JohnMichael
Thanks for posting that FA. Could someone explain to me what is christian about travelling from Florida to Dearborn to harrass a group of people and their beliefs. Back to the days of the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc. and see how bloody christianity has been. If acts of violence are reasons to burn a book......
Who knows what Terry Jones really believes, or whatever he happens to believe it, why it matters? He is a person who craves attention and a personal following.
Jones has a nefarious history, notably in Cologne, Germany where he founded his own church. Congragants there kicked him out in 2008; they accused him of being controlling, exploitive, and of misuse of funds.
He is a person who richly deserves to be totally ignored. However Hezbollah and Pakistani terrorist organizations have place large bouties on his head, according to Wikipedia -- see HERE. Of course, these groups have their own agendas and are eager to exploit whatever can be portrayed as American anti-Muslim attitude.
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