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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
But it's OK that they routinely burn American Flags, right?
No. It's absolutely not okay. But Americans are civilized and don't go around beheading people at the slightest provocation. Why would you poke the animals with a big stick? What did he hope to accomplish? And what did he think would happen?
He's a ****ing moron in my opinion.
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Playing devil's advocate...
Yes, there are consequences that could've been forseen but we also believe in the right to peaceful protest.
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Why can't we all just be friends?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Why can't we all just be friends?
Because some religions get in the way by telling their sheep that all other religions are bad except for the one they belong to.
Fix that and we all could get along.
Swedenborg, a small obscure division of Christianity is the only one I know of that actually will say that "all religions are just different pathways to the same end".
It is also one of the only churches that would allow a wedding between one of their own, and a Cherokee Indian where they observed both traditions and beliefs into one ceremony.
Try that in a Catholic Church!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsticks
Yes, there are consequences that could've been forseen but we also believe in the right to peaceful protest.
What's peaceful about burning a flag or the Koran? Actions like that are done with the intent to hurt. Although nobody may be physically injured by the action itself, they are not peaceful in intent or spirit.
Is burning a cross on someone's lawn a peaceful protest?
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I think symbolic protestors should take their message to those they wish to convert. If you want to preach to followers of the Koran about the [assumed] errors of their ways, go to the lands of Islam and do it. If you want to burn an American flag, come to the US and do it.
And damn straight its OK to burn an American flag. That's the kind of freedom our country rests upon. And, Jones should be free to burn whatever text he likes. Shame on the rest of the world for giving a rat's nether regions about what some individual of no significant standing wants to burn in his spare time. Shame on Jones for the vainglorious act of preaching to the converted. 'course Jones would not fare well taking his burn approach to his Muslim targets abroad. Perhaps that's an indication that he should think about what it is exactly he hopes to accomplish, if in fact by some slim chance he wants to accomplish something other than drawing more like minded attention to himself...
However, FA's accurate comment about cross burning on other's lawns sounds like a conflict with my statement of taking your message to your target. But, that's the difference between intimidation and free speech. Intimidation = Bad, not peaceful. Protest, non hurtful = freedom.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
No. It's absolutely not okay. But Americans are civilized and don't go around beheading people at the slightest provocation. Why would you poke the animals with a big stick? What did he hope to accomplish? And what did he think would happen?
He's a ****ing moron in my opinion.
Civilized huh? You haven't been to North Philly or Camden NJ lately.
Maybe we should riot and kill people here every time they burn a flag.
I don't argue the fact that the guy is a bit nutso, but then again, most people I know that are that brainwashed are also a little nutso.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noddin0ff
I think symbolic protestors should take their message to those they wish to convert. If you want to preach to followers of the Koran about the [assumed] errors of their ways, go to the lands of Islam and do it. If you want to burn an American flag, come to the US and do it.
I have a better idea. How about "live and let live". Don't preach to me. Don't do it from your home and certainly don't come to my home to do it. You live your life and let me live mine (I speak metaphorically, of course).
If more people subscribed to that philosophy the world would be a much better place.
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I agree. Everyone should just live and let live. Anyone who doesn't live that way should be shot in the ars with a barbed bullet.
Oops....
The contents of this post do not reflect the reflections of the views of anyone with a reflection.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
I have a better idea. How about "live and let live". Don't preach to me. Don't do it from your home and certainly don't come to my home to do it. You live your life and let me live mine (I speak metaphorically, of course).
If more people subscribed to that philosophy the world would be a much better place.
Agreed. I'm more the for the 'preach by living' style myself. There's nothing so much worth saying that you aren't better off keeping quiet and living it. If a person thinks what they've got to say is so danged important, odds are they're full of themselves. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Isn't that why the web was created?
However, some things are worth protesting and even protesting in the face of others. I just wish e-connected society had some better filters in place to separate grandstanding from substance. I for one, love the occasional self gratifying rant for the sake of entertainment or edutainment. "Prove me wrong and make my day" is my motto of the moment.
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Not to condone what Jones did, but if the media didn't cover it so heavily do you think it would have made an uproar?
Why should anyone care what a whacko like Jones does anyway? Why should the media broadcast it to Afganistan like it was big new?
Finally, it's just a modern book, print on paper that's all. It's not like Jones was burning some priceless hand illustrated Koran from the 900's.
Addenum; Does anyone think this anger might also have to do with the fact that hundreds of innocent Afgani have died under American bombs? Jones had nothing to do with that but I don't see it being brought up by the media....
Makes you wonder?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
Because some religions get in the way by telling their sheep that all other religions are bad except for the one they belong to.
Fix that and we all could get along.
I see your point and can see why you would feel that way. IMO though, there are people out there with the mentality that would have them fighting no matter what the reason. Some people are filled with rage and will use any excuse to hate.
Not sure why or what jean causes the issue, but we’d all be safer without it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
Swedenborg, a small obscure division of Christianity is the only one I know of that actually will say that "all religions are just different pathways to the same end".
They’re all the same to me, a belief system that can be great for most, but a reason to hate for others. I find it hard to believe in the stories told by men thousands of years ago when stories of sailing off the end of the planet were also prevalent. But they can be a useful tool in helping to teach children to do unto others as you would have them do onto you. Is it the only tool? No. But it’s a tool non the less. It’s when fanatics take it to the next level(s) that it becomes a problem. Even if you could take away the tool, you’ll never take away the fanatics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
It is also one of the only churches that would allow a wedding between one of their own, and a Cherokee Indian where they observed both traditions and beliefs into one ceremony.
Try that in a Catholic Church!
Do any of the other religions allow weddings of their own to ‘outsiders’? I don’t know too much about the rules.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsticks
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...BrandChannel=0
By Kevin Gray
MIAMI (Reuters) - An American Christian preacher who caused an international uproar last year by threatening to burn the Koran has put himself back in the spotlight after incinerating Islam's holy book -- again with deadly consequences.
Thousands of protesters in northern Afghanistan, enraged over news that the Florida pastor Terry Jones had overseen a torching of the Koran, stormed a United Nations compound on Friday, killing at least seven U.N. staff.
Jones, a 58-year-old fundamentalist pastor and the head of a small fringe church in Gainesville, Florida, drew worldwide condemnation in September over his plans to burn the Koran on the anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks.
Several people were killed in protests then in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Muslim world.
Jones eventually canceled that event under intense pressure from the U.S. government, the Pope, and other global leaders.
But he has remained an outspoken critic of Islam, and says parts of the Koran can lead to violence and terrorism.
On March 20, he presided over what he called an "International Judge the Koran Day" in which he supervised the burning of the book in front of some 50 people.
Video posted on the website of his Dove World Outreach Center church showed a kerosene-soaked book going up in bright flames in a metal fire pit similar to those often found in backyards and patios, but located inside the church
I suspect that Terry Jones is a disingenuous publicity seeker. He had a congregation in the UK (of all places!!) who kicked him out for being a control freak and money-grubbing fraudster. Who can say what Jones really knows or cares about Islam -- or Christianity for that matter.
According to Fareed Zakaria on CNN yesterday, the Jones statement was all but ignored in Afganistan until President Hamid Karzai made a public speech about it, presumably to stoke his own support. Unfortunately for everybody, Taliban operatives decided to take action, kill people, and put the blame on the US.
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Not a big deal really. It's within his first amendment rights and besides, they have no problem proudly showing brutal, bloody, beheadings on the Internet.
...of course, they aren't man enough to show their faces like the preacher did.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Why can't we all just be friends?
reminds me of:
http://www.media.wmg-is.com/media/po...7984169_xl.jpg
Great record... :)
anyhow, it's like FA said "why would you poke the animals with big sticks?", it's provocation.
there are countless other options to approach to a debate with different ideas in this world. why choose the ones that only make things worse?
Jones is an idiot, "free speech", true, which is great, but what he's doing is just lowering himself to the drifty agressive minority, and dragging others with him. Compare it with two kids, the one kid deliberately punches a hole in the other kid's football. The other kid can prove he's just as idiotic to perform such a misdeed by punching a hole in the other kid's football, or hurting him or something alike that, but he can also choose to solve it diplomatically, finding a reason, and a deed with some effect.
That said, I think this is a somewhat wise statement from both a philosopher and a stand up comedian: "you can compare the different religions with certain ages: the Judaism is a conservative old fart (excuse the words), Christianity is in it's midlife crisis, and the Islam is the annoying kid in the middle of his puberty."
not wanting to be offensive in any way, but I find there is some serious food for thought/truth in this quote, and honestly, beside the carefree teen years (although everything is a drama at that age, going from broken nails through ex boy/girlfriends), who wants to be the annoying puberty kid?
I think, right now, Jones is enjoying the publicity, all the attention and rebellion and critics he gets, he's the old fart, trying to be the annoying kid again.
Keep them spinning,
Bert.
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I have a hard time understanding organized religion. Every group thinks they alone know the truth. The Westboro Baptist Church thinks it is okay to protest soldier's funerals. The nut in Florida thinks he can burn someones Holy Book. Others who follow the burnt book now think they can kill innocents. Maybe they should have just travelled to Florida.
Some think they know the ultimate truth and try to control others with their truth. No we are the only ones who are reading the book correctly. We will work to change laws based on our faith. We alone can decide who can marry and what women can do with their bodies. All of this based on books written by men.
God gave us free will and organized religion is trying to take it away.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
I have a hard time understanding organized religion. Every group thinks they alone know the truth. The Westboro Baptist Church thinks it is okay to protest soldier's funerals. The nut in Florida thinks he can burn someones Holy Book. Others who follow the burnt book now think they can kill innocents. Maybe they should have just travelled to Florida.
Some think they know the ultimate truth and try to control others with their truth. No we are the only ones who are reading the book correctly. We will work to change laws based on our faith. We alone can decide who can marry and what women can do with their bodies. All of this based on books written by men.
God gave us free will and organized religion is trying to take it away.
Thank you for saying that so much better than I could. And don't forget, one of the main reasons the Muslims still want to get back at Christians, is because during the Crusades, the Christians tried to eradicate them because they were right and the others were wrong.
So the message is "We are the only ones that are right, and we will kill you if you don't convert"
Now it's Karma coming back at the western world.
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No, right or wrong ha nothing to do with it. The crusades were initiated to combat the eastward military takeover of europe by the newly created muslim "religion" and the countries it had overtaken by force. Read up on the Battle of Tours.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
No, right or wrong ha nothing to do with it. The crusades were initiated to combat the eastward military takeover of europe by the newly created muslim "religion" and the countries it had overtaken by force. Read up on the Battle of Tours.
This isn't entirely correct. The Battle of Tours was in 732; it resulted in the exclusion of Muslim powers from France. But the First Crusade began only in 1096. The initial pretext of the First Crusade as to protect the Bysantine Empire from Turkish advances but the objective of western European forces quickly became to occupy the Holy Land, (i.e. Palestine).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
God gave us free will and organized religion is trying to take it away.
I have been an atheist since I was about 16-yrs-old...and agnostic for several years before that. But this has to be the truest statement about religion that I have ever read (IMHO of course).
Very well said John. Bravo!
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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
I have been an atheist since I was about 16-yrs-old...and agnostic for several years before that. But this has to be the truest statement about religion that I have ever read (IMHO of course).
Very well said John. Bravo!
LOL, He is also All Loving and All Forgiving, but there will still be a Judgment Day and you might just be Left Behind!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
I have a hard time understanding organized religion. Every group thinks they alone know the truth. The Westboro Baptist Church thinks it is okay to protest soldier's funerals. The nut in Florida thinks he can burn someones Holy Book. Others who follow the burnt book now think they can kill innocents. Maybe they should have just travelled to Florida.
Some think they know the ultimate truth and try to control others with their truth. No we are the only ones who are reading the book correctly. We will work to change laws based on our faith. We alone can decide who can marry and what women can do with their bodies. All of this based on books written by men.
God gave us free will and organized religion is trying to take it away.
Written by men inspired by God, I think you left that last part out?
Of all the creatures of the sea and earth man was the only one given Free will made in the image of God.
If you read up on most of the dominate religions of the world, they all are based on the Mosaic law (the first five books of the bible) form there you see how man has gone in many different directions and interpretations.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
Written by men inspired by God, I think you left that last part out?
Of all the creatures of the sea and earth man was the only one given Free will made in the image of God.
If you read up on most of the dominate religions of the world, they all are based on the Mosaic law (the first five books of the bible) form there you see how man has gone in many different directions and interpretations.
It is "Inspired by God" where we disagree.
Oh and I should mention I am familiar with the Pentateuch.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
It is "Inspired by God" where we disagree.
That part was written by men as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
That part was written by men as well.
I guess that is where Faith comes into play, just as why is the sky blue and clouds are white, just take it as faith that just the way it is.
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