If Romney gets in which country will America start a war with next?

[Feanor]

...
Well, praise is really a form of thanks for blessings bestowed. From my Lutheran upbringings, my take on the doctrine is that we don't, on our own merits deserve blessings, so it's right to be thankful and praise God for the good in our lives. It's beyond man's ability to comprehend God or God's motives but not beyond us to be thankful for the good. When something 'bad' happens, well, its not in mankind's right to judge god, ergo you can't blame god. You can be angry with God, however. Lot's of examples of that.

Summary: I don't think there is any thing wrong with imbalance you point out. It's quite logical. Them's just the rules of Faith.
...

Yep, but it's these rule that bring faith into disrepute in my books.

BTW, you Lutheran take isn't much different than my Calvinist take ...

...
CHAPTER 6

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of
the Punishment thereof.

I. Our first parents, begin seduced by the subtily and temptations of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.

III. They being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation.

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.

VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal.

[StevenSurprenant]

Because what they "believe" impacts everyone...

...they are 100% willing to drop that placeholder theory when new evidence comes along and knocks it down. Religious faith is an entirely different animal.

For something to be held as significant theory in science it always has a tremendous amount of evidence (discovered through tests) to verify that it would be highly improbable and unlikely for the theory not to be true.

Faith implies belief beyond any doubt (based on ZERO evidence, ZERO facts)

... reducing ignorance and increasing people's knowledge and increase their ability to examine and think for themselves is my day job. That doesn't stop when I walk out of the classroom.

All well said!

You are completely correct in that science is constantly being revised, whether it be what we believe to be the beginning of creation, evolution, or any other area of science we choose. When Sir Isaac Newton discovered gravity it held strong until Einstein theorized that what we call gravity is actually a result of space curvature surrounding a mass. From this he also predicted that the passing of time for an object within a gravitational field is different relative to an observer outside that field. String-theory might possibly change our understanding of gravity in a much more profound way than Einstein's theory changed our understanding of Newton's discovery.

I find science infinitely more fascinating and wondrous than religion. We've only actually just begun discovering the realities of our existence and what we will know someday will make today's knowledge seem naive. Go back 200 years and try to describe the world that we live in today. People back then wouldn't be able to understand and would probably think you were crazy.

I used to not care whether someone believed in a religion but, as you said, it affects us all. Religion is two sided, it has it's good side, it's ugly side, it's good people, and it's evil people.

Ask a religious person why they believe and they will say that's the way they were raised. Ask them if they were raised in a different place where the religion was different, would they believe in the other religion. If they were to answer honestly, they would say yes. We spend our lives being programmed by religion, by government, and by our peers and are completely unaware that it is happening.

BTW, I enjoyed the Richard Dawkins link.

[Feanor]

...
You are completely correct in that science is constantly being revised, whether it be what we believe to be the beginning of creation, evolution, or any other area of science we choose. When Sir Isaac Newton discovered gravity it held strong until Einstein theorized that what we call gravity is actually a result of space curvature surrounding a mass. From this he also predicted that the passing of time for an object within a gravitational field is different relative to an observer outside that field. String-theory might possibly change our understanding of gravity in a much more profound way than Einstein's theory changed our understanding of Newton's discovery.

I find science infinitely more fascinating and wondrous than religion. We've only actually just begun discovering the realities of our existence and what we will know someday will make today's knowledge seem naive. Go back 200 years and try to describe the world that we live in today. People back then wouldn't be able to understand and would probably think you were crazy. ...

Proper science is fundamentally different from religion because it is a process that tests hypotheses and systematically discards or revises those the don't fine the empirical evidence -- this is the antithesis of religious faith.

However among naive people there is such a thing as "scientism", i.e. the faith that science has all the answers right now. But proper science is a process, not body of knowledge. By it's nature science will never have all the answers.

...
I used to not care whether someone believed in a religion but, as you said, it affects us all. Religion is two sided, it has it's good side, it's ugly side, it's good people, and it's evil people.
...

When you bring it up with religionists all the harm done in the name of religion, they respond that the evil doers are misguided and not proper representatives of the faith: yeah well.

But like Jesus said, "You will know the tree by the fruit it bears". Religion has born a lot of evil.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am at a loss as to why so many who do not believe in religion would come here bashing it. Why waste your time discussing something you don't believe in? Surely folks have better things to do than to discuss a god they don't believe in.

I guess some do have an agenda to make themselves better than others here. Maybe it makes some feel better that they don't believe in jack, than respect those that believe in something.

Folks around here are not quite as tolerant as I thought. Respect begats respect, and no respect begats no respect. This is why I have lost respect for some folks(and profoundly for some as well). This kind of topic should never be discussed on a public forum.

Whatever pleasure some are looking for(at the cost of some respect for others), I hope they have found it.

[RGA]

Sir T - perhaps I got off track a little for the "debate's sake" rather than staying on point. I truly and honestly don't care or mind if someone believes in God or is a religious person. I only mind when their beliefs affects me. I am quite sure you would be very upset if you lived in a world run by Jehovah Witnesses and your wife or one of your kids needed a blood transfusion to live but the government said no because under Jehovah Law they've been banned. That is truly and only the thing that bothers me about religion. So long as people pray in peace and leave me out of it and don't enact any law whatsoever that is formed in ANY WAY based on Bible verse then I have no complaints.

But unfortunately, there are SO MANY laws in the U.S. alone that run directly counter to the notion of "the separation of church and state.

One example. I have no problem with suicide. If I am 80 years old and suffering in agonizing pain I want to be allowed to be put out of my misery. Nope - sorry not allowed. Why? religious belief that suicide will send me to hell. Doesn't matter if I don;t believe in hell - doesn't matter that the world is overpopulated and I'd be doing the environment a big favor - it is illegal because of religious voodoo belief. Sure doctors do it under the umbrella of pain management but they dictate what is "pain" and what isn't. Alzheimers is a pain of indignity and basically I want to decide my own fate not some other person who feels he has to run MY LIFE because he believes in whatever he believes in. I won't tell that guy to commit suicide and if he wants to suffer horrific cancer pains for 2 years that's fine by me.

It goes to virtually all of the "liberal" issues I mentioned earlier - woman's body her choice. But many religions basically put women on the same level as cattle. (how else do we explain why it took so long for them to get the vote?) And that's the supposed "good" religions like Christianity and Catholics. The Taliban just shot a 14 year old girl in the face - for wanting to be educated.

Virtually every human rights policy that succeeds is brought about by secular society or what I termed as soft religious people -

Joe Biden (a religious guy who is not a crackpot and understands that what he believes others don't) versus Ryan (a nut that would put me in a gas chamber if he had any real power)

[StevenSurprenant]

RGA -

Actually religions effect goes much deeper than direct influence on those that don't believe. I met a guy from Ireland that was visiting the U.S. and he made the comment that he felt so much more relaxed here in the United States. His reason was that in his native country, if you didn't follow the prevailing religion where you lived, people would frown upon and avoid you. Apparently this had an effect on this person mental state of being. I also know a person from Iran than shared the same viewpoint.

Even in the U.S. it was this way many years back. If you were atheist you never mentioned it for the same reasons that I mentioned above.

Fortunately this is changing.

[Feanor]

I am at a loss as to why so many who do not believe in religion would come here bashing it. Why waste your time discussing something you don't believe in? Surely folks have better things to do than to discuss a god they don't believe in. ...

That's ironic, eh? But the answer is obvious: religions belief affect the non-religious -- and the religious of different beliefs -- in ways they'd rather not be affected.

When religionists insist that they should just be left alone with their beliefs regardless of the consequences of those beliefs, it a form of "special pleading", i.e. a logical fallacy.

...
I guess some do have an agenda to make themselves better than others here. Maybe it makes some feel better that they don't believe in jack, than respect those that believe in something.
...

As a religious non-believer, I resent the insinuation that I "don't believe in jack". There a few things that I certainly believe in. One is the right to human dignity; an other is philosophical skepticism.

[Hyfi]

I am at a loss as to why so many who do not believe in religion would come here bashing it. Why waste your time discussing something you don't believe in? Surely folks have better things to do than to discuss a god they don't believe in.

I guess some do have an agenda to make themselves better than others here. Maybe it makes some feel better that they don't believe in jack, than respect those that believe in something.

Folks around here are not quite as tolerant as I thought. Respect begats respect, and no respect begats no respect. This is why I have lost respect for some folks(and profoundly for some as well). This kind of topic should never be discussed on a public forum.

Whatever pleasure some are looking for(at the cost of some respect for others), I hope they have found it.

Thought, discussion, scientific facts among other things help a person grow and be more open minded and not rigid with a single set of beliefs. I learn from these discussions whether it changes my mind about things or not.

And I am surprised you participated at all in this whole thread after posting this. You must have enjoyed it as much as the others or you would have just passed it by. You had every opportunity to just not respond.

Politics should also not be discussed on a public forum either since your politics are directly correlated to your religious beliefs, or lack of.

Like RGA stated, the Bushwacker took our country and others to war because God influenced him to. That says it all as to why religious beliefs should be totally kept out of political decisions.

Not believing does not make anyone feel better than the next guy but I have surely been treated the opposite way at times.

[Feanor]

...
Not believing does not make anyone feel better than the next guy but I have surely been treated the opposite way at times.

High-5, Hyfi. So true

Being a non-believer one tends to feel that life has no "higher" purpose, that there is no one "up there" to help you, etc. Your main consolation is that you aren't in indulging in self-delusion.

On the other hand I've observed religionists not only "feeling better" about themselves, but mock and condemning those who don't believe as they do.

But let's allow that Sir T is liberal religionist, and by that token that there is a wide range of tolerance capacity among religionists of all religions.

[RGA]

In the U.S there are pockets where Atheists are outright attacked and killed for "not believing" in God.

Evolution is a fact and yet it has been continuously attacked by people who have never read anything on the subject, don't understand it when they do read it.

Even with my two pictures above even Biden mentions the bit of not going against the Supreme Court but the Supreme Court which is supposed to be unbiased and supposed to separate Church and State virtually always split right along political and religious lines. Of course there is no separation - how can you separate your beliefs that are part of who you are with that of public policy?

Take this U.S congressman Rep. Broun: Evolution, Embryology, Big Bang Theory Are "Lies Straight From The Pit Of Hell" - YouTube

This man is saying loud and clear that he has absolutely no intention to separate church from state. Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave.

I can take public policy disagreement over abortion for example. You can make plenty of pro-life arguments that resonate and same for capital punishment and ultimately - the majority rules. (if it is actual number of votes and not votes based on regions having more sway than other reasons even with less people).

If we're going to pretend we live in a "free" society then it should mean you are free to make any choices you want so long as thy don't hurt others. You want to smoke a plant in your house be my guest - has nothing to do with me. You want to advocate against people smoking pot fine but use credible arguments and don't be a hypocrite - Pot's bad but smoking and alcohol are fine? I don't smoke either and rarely drink but just because I don't do it I just feel it's hypocritical - alcohol makes you do crazy stuff and smoking causes cancer - most people who drink also smoke. Pot is just like combining the two except the net results is they're less violent and tend to eat cookies. That helps the economy and Oreo Corporation and potato chip companies everywhere.

And personally speaking I would love there to be a God - I wish so bad that there is one. I would love to see my dad again - And I really get why people are drawn to religions that promise just that and that your next life will be better than this one etc. The idea of immortality is also an exciting prospect. Humans have such massive egos that we are more special than a fish. Everything revolves around us and we are the chosen ones. My Mormon friend claims that how you do in this world determines what level of "God" you get to be in the next life or some such tiered level of goodness. Follow our religion and you get 72 virgins, follow our religion and you'll get to BE a God, follow our religion and go to Heaven a sea of the penultimate levels of happiness, joy, and pleasure.

What's common to all is that you need to hand over a credit card.

I so wish I could suspend my disbelief the way I can when I watch a play or a great film. Dream worlds are often far more exciting and wonderful than real life. The mind is such a creative and intricate device - it can create and imagine and hope. That pesky Vulcan logic comes into play however to ensure we stay grounded in reality and accept some hard truths. Like every other animal we're here to live, spawn, and die. And in the blink of a universal eye we'll be snuffed out of existence like Dino.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Thought, discussion, scientific facts among other things help a person grow and be more open minded and not rigid with a single set of beliefs. I learn from these discussions whether it changes my mind about things or not.

This may apply to you, but does it really apply to others. This is not thought or discussion, this is an outright bashing and disrespect of somebody's beliefs.

And I am surprised you participated at all in this whole thread after posting this. You must have enjoyed it as much as the others or you would have just passed it by. You had every opportunity to just not respond.

I was enjoying it until it got to religion and God bashing. And please, don't make excuses for disrespecting others beliefs. That kind of deflection is disingenuous at best.

Politics should also not be discussed on a public forum either since your politics are directly correlated to your religious beliefs, or lack of.

I agree.

Like RGA stated, the Bushwacker took our country and others to war because God influenced him to. That says it all as to why religious beliefs should be totally kept out of political decisions.

So this one person decision makes religion and God bad. How does anyone know God told him anything, folks lie about that all the time. His actions do not give you carte blanche to disrespect all christians and their beliefs

Not believing does not make anyone feel better than the next guy but I have surely been treated the opposite way at times.

So you let how you were treated by a few mislead christians allow you to disrespect other christians who mean you no harm to you at all.

Don't complain about how you are treated if you are going to turn around and disrespect others beliefs. That is kind of hypocritical don't you think?.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

That's ironic, eh? But the answer is obvious: religions belief affect the non-religious -- and the religious of different beliefs -- in ways they'd rather not be affected.

When religionists insist that they should just be left alone with their beliefs regardless of the consequences of those beliefs, it a form of "special pleading", i.e. a logical fallacy.


As a religious non-believer, I resent the insinuation that I "don't believe in jack". There a few things that I certainly believe in. One is the right to human dignity; an other is philosophical skepticism.

None of this is an open door for the kind of disrespect you have shown here.

I am really disappointed.......

[Feanor]

None of this is an open door for the kind of disrespect you have shown here.

I am really disappointed.......

Don't be sanctimonious. We couldn't begin to count the times you've called various people, "liar", for example.

Is possible to respect the person but not respect some of his/her beliefs? Yes, it is.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Don't be sanctimonious. We couldn't begin to count the times you've called various people, "liar", for example.

Is possible to respect the person but not respect some of his/her beliefs? Yes, it is.

No, in some cases the two are intertwinded.

I do not call anyone a liar unless they keep on repeating a myth over and over again.

You have no context to this comment. I would never call anyone a liar based on their religious beliefs, but their audio and video knowledge is another story.

I know you understand compartmentalization. There are some things that are free to be discussed, and things that are wise to be discussed. You are showing a profound lack of wisdom in favor of your right, and it is insulting others with your freedom. So don't give me your sactimonious BS, it has nothing to do with that.

[StevenSurprenant]

Pot is just like combining the two except the net results is they're less violent and tend to eat cookies. That helps the economy and Oreo Corporation and potato chip companies everywhere.

LOL...I surprised that the cookie companies aren't on the legalize pot bandwagon!

[Feanor]

...
I know you understand compartmentalization. There are some things that are free to be discussed, and things that are wise to be discussed. You are showing a profound lack of wisdom in favor of your right, and it is insulting others with your freedom. So don't give me your sactimonious BS, it has nothing to do with that.

The ability to compartmentalized is a good thing in an individual and you have this capability -- in this case it's a matter of keeping personal religious belief out of the real world.

What I do objective is the "special pleading" with respect to personal religious belief that it must be excluded from criticism and debate. Here, Off Topic we discuss many things, including politics for example: why not philosophical/religious issues?

Let the moderators exclude religion and I will observe that rule; they haven't -- it isn't taboo. If don't want your feelings hurt, stay away from the discussions; don't come in and castigate those participating. As Truman said, "If you can't take heat, get out of the kitchen".

When I was young I often heard advice from my mother and others, "Never discuss religion or politics". Good advice if you aren't ever willing to risk giving offend, (or are selling a used car).

Earlier I suggested that this thread be closed: that suggestion still stands.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The ability to compartmentalized is a good thing in an individual and you have this capability -- in this case it's a matter of keeping personal religious belief out of the real world.

What I do objective is the "special pleading" with respect to personal religious belief that it must be excluded from criticism and debate. Here, Off Topic we discuss many things, including politics for example: why not philosophical/religious issues?

Let the moderators exclude religion and I will observe that rule; they haven't -- it isn't taboo. If don't want your feelings hurt, stay away from the discussions; don't come in and castigate those participating. As Truman said, "If you can't take heat, get out of the kitchen".

When I was young I often heard advice from my mother and others, "Never discuss religion or politics". Good advice if you aren't ever willing to risk giving offend, (or are selling a used car).

Earlier I suggested that this thread be closed: that suggestion still stands.

You should have listened to your mother before it costs you a friend. In the future, I will be sure to disrespect your beliefs as profoundly as you have disrespected mine.

[StevenSurprenant]

Arggg! Sir T asking for respect when he is one of the most disrespectful people I have encountered.

[Feanor]

You should have listened to your mother before it costs you a friend. In the future, I will be sure to disrespect your beliefs as profoundly as you have disrespected mine.

Feel free.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Feel free.

Trust me when I say I do.........

[thekid]

Well the nice thing about this thread is that in about 22 days it will disappear and then everyone can go back to criticizing the gear choices of others.........

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Arggg! Sir T asking for respect when he is one of the most disrespectful people I have encountered.

It is interesting that stupid $hit has the same first letters as your moniker.So you think your comments have affordorded the high road. Well I guess if the curb was you high road, then you have met your standards.

[Feanor]

Trust me when I say I do.........

I can take a lot of heat without wilting ...

On the other hand, you, I, and various other people here would do well to emulate that relentlessly gracious & gentlemanly, some-time member, Bernd.

[Hyfi]

I am still unsure why asking why and how people can believe certain stories with absolutely no proof they ever happened or happened the way they are told or if we are supposed to believe them word for word or that they mean something else......is disrespecting someone's religion. We don't even know what religion the complainer is anyway.

I never said anyone was wrong for believing, I just question how and ask for an explanation of how certain stories could have ever happened the way they were written.

I never told anyone they should not have faith and believe whatever they think they need to believe.

So how having a discussion, asking for real answers to questions, and pointing out flaws in the theory is disrespecting ones religion eludes me.

And why do Christians think their religion is the only right one? That disrespects ALL other religions.

All religions are just different pathways to the same end, a glorious afterlife or whatever one chooses to believe.

Buddha allegedly said many of the same things Jesus allegedly said but many years before Jesus was born. Many other religions existed before Christianity so why are they all wrong and only Christians are now right?

And as for reverse disrespect, go back and read many of Mark's entries back to Feanor, RGA and myself. We have been totally disrespected for not believing what he believes. But that is OK I guess.

Yeah, I went too far and called Mark (and myself for that matter) an inbred. He pushed my buttons. I will try not to let that happen again.

[Feanor]

I am still unsure why asking why and how people can believe certain stories with absolutely no proof they ever happened or happened the way they are told or if we are supposed to believe them word for word or that they mean something else......is disrespecting someone's religion. We don't even know what religion the complainer is anyway.
....

This was certainly my question too. In fact I heard many religious people object to this questioning. When they are people who insist on objective information & reasoning in all other areas, it strikes me as a "special pleading" for religion. Does religion deserve this privilege? They say 'yes'; I say 'no'.

BTW, I meant no personal disrespect to the most recent complainer but, typical of these special pleaders, he chose to take insult from my purely intellectual position.