If Romney gets in which country will America start a war with next?

[frenchmon]

Remember christianity is only one of the world's religions. We also have the pagan beliefs. We have those with no beliefs and not one person can prove they have the true way.

Affirmative JM, I can't prove to you the existence of God, and you can't prove to me He does not exist. Thats why its called faith.

You only believe what your church teaches and many teachers have been wrong. Of course if it brings you comfort believe what you will.

Wrong. I actually the church I attend believes things I don't believe. They have a host of doctrines I don't believe. I don't blindly believe stuff that people say ..christian or not.

The bible was written by man and often hundreds of years after the actual event.

Are you talking the entire bible, or certain books. Moses wrote most the Torah while he was alive.

Did it literally rain for 40 days and 40 nights or just long enough to cover that are of the earth.

Is that essential for salvation? If not it does not matter.

Did god create the earth in 7 days or in an amount of time beyond our understanding that man called days.

Is that essential for salvation? If not it does not matter if a believer believes it or not.

Did Jesus fast for 40 days or long enough to receive an answer? 7 and 40 are used throughout the bible symbolically and were never meant to be taken literally. To know the bible you need to know it's history and how it developed and became the book it is.

Again JM...a believer does not have to believe any of the above or even know about it....a believer is not required to know bible history...its not important at all. And your comments about bible history...I've studied Old Testament and New Testament biblical history....I especially love second temple Judaism. I find it fascinating.

[frenchmon]

JM...kindly point out what I failed to answer.

Have I showed contempt for you? Been hostile towards you? I've known you where gay for years now and have never treated you indifferent have I ?

I have no problem with gays, but I'm curious now....what gives you the impression other wise to the point it saddens you?

Bump.

[JohnMichael]

Bump.

Bump. You demand answers from me faster than you give them. I am finished here.

[RGA]

The problem with faith is that it leads to killing, intolerance and hate. The 9/11 bombers had faith - about as much faith as you could ever have if you're willing to strap a giant gas bomb onto your back and fly yourself into a building. The Westboro Baptist Church folks have plenty of faith too - so much so that they're willing to take on America's churches for not being faithful enough.

The onus is to prove a positive not a negative; therefore, the religious have to prove there is a God.

But science and the arts have disproven numerous religious teachings.

Earth is not the center of the universe (or flat)
Evolution is fact - creationism is bogus claptrap
Noah could not have put two of every animal on the boat
Dinosaurs did not live with man
Dinosaurs were real
The earth is billions of years old and not 6000 years old.

The sky God is illogical on numerous fronts but the "I want to believe in God and so should you because I believe" is dangerous. As you can see from all the people who take it too far "Westboo Baptist Church" types.

Let's start with the logic faults of any sky god. In every case they are said to be:

Omnipotent: All Powerful

Omniscience: Universal or Complete knowledge.

So this is God (or Q from Star Trek)

Free Will:
Galations 5:13
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.

(Might be worthy to note at this point, that I discovered a contradiction in the bible while researching... see the galations 5 text above, and compare to Ephesians 1:11, "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will". Which appears to be stating we don't have free will, but are bound by the "grand scheme" that god has put together.)

Omnipotence:
Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Luke 1:37
For nothing is impossible with God.

Omniscience
Psalm 147:4-5
He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Taking these scriptures into account, consider the following statements:

1) If god is Omnipotent, can he make an object so heavy he cannot lift it himself?

2) Free will: If god is Omniscient, than he knows your future. If he knows your future, than it is already set in stone (if your future changed, god would cease to be omniscient). Therefore Free will cannot exist... Which can't be true, since the bible is the infallible word of god, and says we are created free.

3) If god is all knowing, and all powerful, and the creator of all... than he must know who is doomed to hell before they are born. Knowing who is destined for hell, how can he offer a free pass to heaven by believing in Jesus? Surely he knew what you would decide before you were given the option. Therefore, choosing to believe or not to believe is not your choice, but is predestined before you were born. Your ticket has already been written, so don't sweat it... right?

4) If god knows who is doomed to hell before they are born and allows them to be created anyway, than he is sentencing people to eternal damnation for sins never committed... If people are born without their futures etched in stone, than god cannot see the future.

5) If god is Omniscient, knowing what will happen in the future, than he can not use his omnipotence to change the outcome... As he is powerless to change the outcome of future events, he is not Omnipotent.

The conclusion of comparing these scriptures, versus some objective thinking leads to a number of conclusions:

1) God, bound by his own omniscience is completely powerless to do anything but watch events unfold.

2) Since I've established taking parts of the bible figuratively unravles the entire religion itself, the bible is not the true word of god, as god is perfect.

-or-

3) The Christian god can not exist the way he has been presented.

None of these conclusions look good for believers. It pretty much establishes that Christianity is wrong.

Don't feel left out quite yet mormons, jewish, muslim and hindus.... I hope to have enough time to take an objective look at your dogma and religious texts as well! Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all, page 1

This is just one aspect as to why Sky Gods don't work. The reason they were "invented" to replace the Roman/Greek Gods is because people saw the logical problems. Gods are perfect infallible, omnipotent and omniscient but in those days Zeus would be mad at Aphrodite or Venus and one would tell the people to do This while the other God would tell them to do That. People figured out that if they were truly perfect they would always AGREE on everything because there would only be ever one correct course of action.

The lack of logic of the Greek Gods (and the fact that science told them things about their world) the realized that faith in this stuff was misplaced. The one God idea is "better" logically since there is one voice and "one" way - but as can be seen from the above it is impossible and thus PROVEN wrong that God could be Omnipotent or Omniscient - so if God is up there and you want to believe he she it is up there then you have to also believe he is fallible - which you're not allowed to believe. And if you believe in this in spite of the logical impossibility then I'm afraid you're a lune who should be in a rubber room. The fact that 80%+ of the population believes in this nutty stuff doesn't validate the point. Most people believe wrong stuff all the time - which is why Republicans get elected.

[Hyfi]

Are those Westboro bozos the ones that demonstrate at GI funerals saying that god is punishing them for gays in the military?

[JohnMichael]

Are those Westboro bozos the ones that demonstrate at GI funerals saying that god is punishing them for gays in the military?

Yes they are and they protest other funerals.

[Hyfi]

Yes they are and they protest other funerals.

That surely helps to promote good will, love, tolerance, forgiveness, peace, understanding, acceptance.....oh wait, that sounds like they should be Christian.

[markw]

The thinly veiled hate and jealousy is palpable on this site.

As I said in a post last year, someone always finds a way to turn any thread into a Christian bashing fest.

Thanks for proving me right, as usual.

[Feanor]

"The problem with faith ..." The problem with it is that it doesn't demand empirical evidence or accept rational argument.

So, Richard, I suggest you & I give it a rest for now.

[Hyfi]

The thinly veiled hate and jealousy is palpable on this site.

As I said in a post last year, someone always finds a way to turn any thread into a Christian bashing fest.

Thanks for proving me right, as usual.

Wait, no prejudice here, we are bashing all religions just the same. But, only Christians are defending theirs.

"All religions are just different pathways to the same God"
Emanual Swedenborg

[frenchmon]

Bump. You demand answers from me faster than you give them. I am finished here.

JM...im not perfect, and really don't see what the problem is in telling me what I missed seeing I dont know what I missed.....sorry.

[frenchmon]

Are those Westboro bozos the ones that demonstrate at GI funerals saying that god is punishing them for gays in the military?

Yeah they are the ones....They are a perfect example of those who are following after a misguided pastor.

[frenchmon]

That surely helps to promote good will, love, tolerance, forgiveness, peace, understanding, acceptance.....oh wait, that sounds like they should be Christian.

If you want to call them Christians, well make sure you call them misguided and extreme who take the bible out of context. There is no biblical bsis for what they are doing.

[frenchmon]

Ok I'm done with this conversation...let get back to politics....I hope I have not lost a good friend in JM?

[markw]

Wait, no prejudice here, we are bashing all religions just the same. But, only Christians are defending theirs.

"All religions are just different pathways to the same God"
Emanual Swedenborg

What members of other religions post here?

I really gave you more credit that that. I guess I was wrong.

[Hyfi]

What members of other religions post here?

I really gave you more credit that that. I guess I was wrong.

Just being sarcastic about all this fun stuff, but I really don't need your credit.

I also have no idea what religions everyone that posts here are, and neither do you.

[frenchmon]

The problem with faith is that it leads to killing, intolerance and hate. The 9/11 bombers had faith - about as much faith as you could ever have if you're willing to strap a giant gas bomb onto your back and fly yourself into a building. The Westboro Baptist Church folks have plenty of faith too - so much so that they're willing to take on America's churches for not being faithful enough.

Yeah, but faith in what is the question. Faith from a wrong foundation is misguided faith.

The onus is to prove a positive not a negative; therefore, the religious have to prove there is a God.

Prove it to who RCA?

But science and the arts have disproven numerous religious teachings..

Example please.

Earth is not the center of the universe (or flat)
Evolution is fact - creationism is bogus claptrap
Noah could not have put two of every animal on the boat
Dinosaurs did not live with man
Dinosaurs were real
The earth is billions of years old and not 6000 years old.

So tell me how they proved these wrong before I answer.

The sky God is illogical on numerous fronts but the "I want to believe in God and so should you because I believe" is dangerous. As you can see from all the people who take it too far "Westboo Baptist Church" types.

The Sky God? You lost me here. But again, why base all of christianity on what Westboo does or say?

Let's start with the logic faults of any sky god. In every case they are said to be:

Omnipotent: All Powerful

Omniscience: Universal or Complete knowledge.

So this is God (or Q from Star Trek)

What on earth are you talking about? What is a sky God?

Free Will:
Galations 5:13
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.

(Might be worthy to note at this point, that I discovered a contradiction in the bible while researching... see the galations 5 text above, and compare to Ephesians 1:11, "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will". Which appears to be stating we don't have free will, but are bound by the "grand scheme" that god has put together.)

RGA....you have it wrong. You need to read in context. The author of Galatians is talking about Jewish converts and Gentiles believers who where deceived into going back to the old ways of the Mosaic law/Torah. Christ death freed Israel from the Torah, thus making no distinction in Jews and Gentiles. So they where totally free from the Mosaic law....and a new covenant was ushered in... It has nothing to do with the Ephesians passage which is stating that believers now have an inheritance in Christs according to the will of God, which has always been.

RGA, I think I will stop it there. I would like to see your response to the above before I continue on....if you care to continue on. Because I am sure you have taken everything else out of context as well.

Infact...if you want to continue this and not trash the intent of this thread any more, perhaps JM can move us to another section?

[Hyfi]

Frenchmon, if I may take a stab at one of your questions

Sky God

I would say he is talking about the God that Christians believe in where they see Him (never her) as an entity that sits on a throne in a make believe place called Heaven and wields his judgements on all of us sinners.

In reality, God is an energy source, the outcome or maybe even the cause of the big bang. Nobody will prove it one way or another in our lifetime or many to come.

The faith part comes in because people have Faith that the Sky God will Judge them justly and allow them into Heaven because they asked for forgiveness.

I don't buy into all of this and never really have. I do believe we are all spiritually connected by the energy I mentioned above. We are all one as well as everything around us. We are made from the same building blocks and atoms that were spewed out during the big bang.

I will not tell people that believing and having their faith is wrong, just not for me. What I do find odd is that as Christians get older and more scared as to afterlife, Heaven or Hell, they start trying to buy their way in to heaven.

I have spent many years going to different churches and reading many books and came up with something that works for me. I incorporate bits of all of them since for the most part, they are all after the same thing. What I do object to are the rituals and fluff that has nothing to do with being good to everyone around you and treating others the way you would like to be treated.

I try to live by a similar code as those preached by Jesus, and many others already said the same things before he was ever born, but without an Organized Religion to collect my money and give me false hopes.

Don't even get me started on Tithing and the way it is used to make you feel guilty.

[JohnMichael]

I was asked by one member to close this thread. I am not sure that would be appropriate since I moved it into the Steel Cage. The member who started the thread was not the one asking for it to be closed. Remember you always have the choice not to participate. I would like to have ForeverAutumn and bobsticks opinion on this one.

[Hyfi]

I vote to shut it down only because it has become a circular jerk and in the end, there is no winner, right or wrong, or finite conclusions when it comes to religion and/or politics.

But, as you said, nobody is forced to read it or reply to it. But it is like a multi car pileup that you just have to keep staring at as you drive by slowly.

[markw]

It shows the world what kind of people hang out here.

I'll bet it makes the management so proud to see their forum used tas a venue to spew hate..

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Yeah they are the ones....They are a perfect example of those who are following after a misguided pastor.

He is not their pastor, he is their father, grandfather and great grandfather. This is nothing more than a family and extended family. There are no members outside of this one family in the so called "church".

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Yeah, but faith in what is the question. Faith from a wrong foundation is misguided faith.



Prove it to who RCA?



Example please.



So tell me how they proved these wrong before I answer.



The Sky God? You lost me here. But again, why base all of christianity on what Westboo does or say?



What on earth are you talking about? What is a sky God?



RGA....you have it wrong. You need to read in context. The author of Galatians is talking about Jewish converts and Gentiles believers who where deceived into going back to the old ways of the Mosaic law/Torah. Christ death freed Israel from the Torah, thus making no distinction in Jews and Gentiles. So they where totally free from the Mosaic law....and a new covenant was ushered in... It has nothing to do with the Ephesians passage which is stating that believers now have an inheritance in Christs according to the will of God, which has always been.

RGA, I think I will stop it there. I would like to see your response to the above before I continue on....if you care to continue on. Because I am sure you have taken everything else out of context as well.

Infact...if you want to continue this and not trash the intent of this thread any more, perhaps JM can move us to another section?

Frenchy, you are casting pearls before a swine here. RGA does not like religion, does not believe in God, and takes 300,000 words to say what he can say in 10.

By continuing to engage with RGA, you just give him a full platform to post his ignorance and lack of comprehension regarding the Bible.

Personally, I think we should all eat Barbeque, drink beer, have a group hug, and sing kumbaya in four part harmony. Wait, RGA can't participate in that.......

[Hyfi]

It shows the world what kind of people hang out here.

.

You hang out here

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You hang out here

He doesn't hang out here, he spews up here.