$35K for Speaker Cables!

[E-Stat]

Well, I am selling a pair of silver-plated Oxygen Free Copper 2m length new Supra EFF-IX audio interconnects...

So what are their LCR metrics?

rw

[Ajani]

There is a point where the diminishing returns are outweighed by the lack of value that you're actually getting. If you can afford $350K, then why not go see the real orchestra every weekend for the rest of your life rather than try to reproduce it in your living room? These MIT cables are such a product, where the diminishing returns aren't even the issue anymore, compared to the absolute lunacy of spending that much on cables for fantasy technology, IMO.

And what is this technology anyhow? What can possibly be worth $35K in a cable? We're not talking about a piece of Lamm gear here, we're talking about a cable! Even if they were made of solid platinum and the box dangling off of them had a full PCB with the most expensive parts, I still fail to see how that would amount to $35K. Someone please explain to me what kind of magic these cables can produce that a top-of-the-line cable from a more realistic manufacturer can produce. What is MIT doing that the other guys are not? Do these cables really sound better or just an ever so slight nudge different? Or is that margin of supposed superiority just snake-oil?

I'd rather spend $100K on concert tickets, than own a $100K setup... but I'm sure others will and do disagree... Who am I to tell them that they should not spend their $100K (or $350K) in that manner?

Value in HiFi can ONLY be determined by the individual purchaser...

[E-Stat]

I'd rather spend $100K on concert tickets, than own a $100K setup... but I'm sure others will and do disagree...

I certainly enjoy attending live concerts, but as a dedicated music junkie, I would find that approach way too limiting.

1. How do you choose to listen to content from decades ago? How would you hear the Beatles? Forget about them? Wait for the next oldies concert in your area?
2. How do you hear movie scores without the dialog? There are a number I like just hearing.
3. How do you actually get to hear the music and instruments that are butchered at a 120 db rock concert?
4. What if the nearest symphony orchestra is 100 miles away? I rather like spending more time listening than driving.

rw

[Ajani]

I certainly enjoy attending live concerts, but as a dedicated music junkie, I would find that approach way too limiting.

1. How do you choose to listen to content from decades ago? How would you hear the Beatles? Forget about them? Wait for the next oldies concert in your area?
2. How do you hear movie scores without the dialog? There are a number I like just hearing.
3. How do you actually get to hear the music and instruments that are butchered at a 120 db rock concert?
4. What if the nearest symphony orchestra is 100 miles away? I rather like spending more time listening than driving.

rw

Exactly! All valid reasons why someone would prefer to spend the extra money on HiFi... I'd "probably" settle for a $30K setup for all those issues and spend the remaining $70K to go out to live events... But then again, who knows what I'd actually spend that money on if I had it? So it's best to let the potential purchasers make the value decision themselves...

[GMichael]

Cables like these are very special. They have little mini boot camps inside, for the electrons traveling to your speakers. As each electron passes through they get insulted, beat down and then built up. This way, all the electrons are marching in order with no strays to through off your sound. You end up with a much more uniformed sound. No slop. The highs are REAL highs, and the lows are REAL lows.

[audio amateur]

I certainly enjoy attending live concerts, but as a dedicated music junkie, I would find that approach way too limiting.

1. How do you choose to listen to content from decades ago? How would you hear the Beatles? Forget about them? Wait for the next oldies concert in your area?
2. How do you hear movie scores without the dialog? There are a number I like just hearing.
3. How do you actually get to hear the music and instruments that are butchered at a 120 db rock concert?
4. What if the nearest symphony orchestra is 100 miles away? I rather like spending more time listening than driving.

rw

I knew you would respond with this
There is a obvious trade off in what I mentionned. Perhaps you can settle with a mid-fi system when you're not attending the real deal? Heck, with 350K your can certainly make room for a very decent system!

[GMichael]

I'd rather spend $100K on concert tickets, than own a $100K setup... but I'm sure others will and do disagree... Who am I to tell them that they should not spend their $100K (or $350K) in that manner?

Value in HiFi can ONLY be determined by the individual purchaser...

There are some who can spend over $100k on each, and then not even show up at all the concerts or turn their system on more than once a year.

[GMichael]

There is a point where the diminishing returns are outweighed by the lack of value that you're actually getting. If you can afford $350K, then why not go see the real orchestra every weekend for the rest of your life rather than try to reproduce it in your living room? These MIT cables are such a product, where the diminishing returns aren't even the issue anymore, compared to the absolute lunacy of spending that much on cables for fantasy technology, IMO.

And what is this technology anyhow? What can possibly be worth $35K in a cable? We're not talking about a piece of Lamm gear here, we're talking about a cable! Even if they were made of solid platinum and the box dangling off of them had a full PCB with the most expensive parts, I still fail to see how that would amount to $35K. Someone please explain to me what kind of magic these cables can produce that a top-of-the-line cable from a more realistic manufacturer can produce. What is MIT doing that the other guys are not? Do these cables really sound better or just an ever so slight nudge different? Or is that margin of supposed superiority just snake-oil?

It's the magic of being able to tell someone, "mine is better than yours."

[Ajani]

There are some who can spend over $100k on each, and then not even show up at all the concerts or turn their system on more than once a year.

As is their right... They can spend the money however they please...

When I was living in Toronto, I had easily the nicest looking kitchen of all my friends. The combination of Stainless Steel and Granite was breathtaking... Yet friends always joked about the fact that I rarely ever cooked...

Point is that I paid the rent, so it was my right (and mine alone) to use or just look at that kitchen (and I certainly enjoyed looking at it)... So even if someone wants to collect a $350K Stereo and use it like a sculpture, so what?

[GMichael]

As is their right... They can spend the money however they please...

When I was living in Toronto, I had easily the nicest looking kitchen of all my friends. The combination of Stainless Steel and Granite was breathtaking... Yet friends always joked about the fact that I rarely ever cooked...

Point is that I paid the rent, so it was my right (and mine alone) to use or just look at that kitchen (and I certainly enjoyed looking at it)... So even if someone wants to collect a $350K Stereo and use it like a sculpture, so what?

You mean like all those guys who spend $20k on a Harley and then never drive it? Sure, they can do that. But it's my right to laugh at them.

[Ajani]

You mean like all those guys who spend $20k on a Harley and then never drive it? Sure, they can do that. But it's my right to laugh at them.

Yep... you can always laugh.... but it's their money...

[E-Stat]

Heck, with 350K your can certainly make room for a very decent system!

The whole point is that some folks demand the highest levels of performance. Ferrari used to charge $10k for the carbon fiber brake option!

rw

[Ajani]

The whole point is that some folks demand the highest levels of performance. Ferrari used to charge $10k for the carbon fiber brake option!

rw

Many audiophiles (consumers in general, actually) look for best value for money, while others just want the absolute best...

[audio amateur]

The whole point is that some folks demand the highest levels of performance.

And what I'm saying is that you regularly get to hear the real deal for that price.

Ferrari used to charge $10k for the carbon fiber brake option!

Are you saying 35k for a pair of cables is any less obscene ? I can see where the money is going in my carbon ceramic brakes, the technology of which is used in Formula 1. Can't say as much about them cables.

[E-Stat]

And what I'm saying is that you regularly get to hear the real deal for that price.

Such is a value statement. The equally obscenely priced Nordost Odins that I've heard are simply spectacular in their ability to retrieve detail. You're not going to find this design as any OEM product to be relabeled.

Are you saying 35k for a pair of cables is any less obscene ? I can see where the money is going in my carbon ceramic brakes, the technology of which is used in Formula 1. Can't say as much about them cables.

You're looking at the wrong end. It is all about development cost, not just materials cost. Are you aware of how many hundreds of millions are spent so that an F1 racer can shave tenths of a second off its lap time? Do you see those changes? Many opamps can be manufactured for a buck or two. How many man hours of development, however, did the design and testing take? A lot more than a minute's worth of labor time might suggest.

rw

[nightflier]

It is all about development cost, not just materials cost. Are you aware of how many hundreds of millions are spent so that an F1 racer can shave tenths of a second off its lap time?

Sounds to me like Ferrari was trying to recoup some of those losses by getting suckers to pony up $10K for brake shoes. Kind of like Porsche making SUVs, as they admitted themselves. Whether that is the case or not, what is MIT trying to recoup? How much can realistically be spent on $35K cables research (excluding knowledge from previous cables). Likewise, those Odin cables are equally over-priced. So many people make the mistaken assumption that everything with a fancy name, good marketing, or a new model number must automatically be that much more expensive. While labor costs are indeed higher in some places (like the US and Europe), there is a point where this becomes ridiculously abusive.

[Ajani]

Sounds to me like Ferrari was trying to recoup some of those losses by getting suckers to pony up $10K for brake shoes. Kind of like Porsche making SUVs, as they admitted themselves. Whether that is the case or not, what is MIT trying to recoup? How much can realistically be spent on $35K cables research (excluding knowledge from previous cables). Likewise, those Odin cables are equally over-priced. So many people make the mistaken assumption that everything with a fancy name, good marketing, or a new model number must automatically be that much more expensive. While labor costs are indeed higher in some places (like the US and Europe), there is a point where this becomes ridiculously abusive.

Abusive of who or what? The guy with $35K to spend on a hobby? If the MIT cables do indeed sound better than all other cables, so what? If they sound no better than a standard pair of Blue Jeans Cables, so what? Who or what is being abused by the $35K price tag? Neither you nor I are footing the bill...

Let the buyer decide, whether the increase in performance (real or imagined) is worth it to him/her...

[E-Stat]

Sounds to me like Ferrari was trying to recoup some of those losses by getting suckers to pony up $10K for brake shoes.

Truly I don't understand why people who have never experienced the performance of something get all whipped up about the cost and whine about all the "suckers". Why spend $70M on a Gulfstream G5 when you can buy a faster Citation X for a third that?

rw

[Ajani]

It's the magic of being able to tell someone, "mine is better than yours."

Is that like the magic of being able to laugh at all the fools who pay big money for: "the same performance I got for a fraction of the cost"?

[GMichael]

Many audiophiles (consumers in general, actually) look for best value for money, while others just want the absolute best...

And some just want to spend the most so they can "say" they have the best.

[GMichael]

Is that like the magic of being able to laugh at all the fools who pay big money for: "the same performance I got for a fraction of the cost"?

Sounds like I hit a nerve.

[Ajani]

Sounds like I hit a nerve.

I don't own any expensive hi-fi, so you can't hit a nerve....

[Ajani]

And some just want to spend the most so they can "say" they have the best.

Some also want to claim that anything that costs more than they have spent is a rip-off and just audiophile jewelry...

Anyway you take it, there are @$$holes on both sides of the argument... whether it be the person who buys expensive gear for bragging rights or the guy who does nothing but start threads about how much of a ripoff expensive gear is (compared to his gear)...

[bfalls]

Exactly! All valid reasons why someone would prefer to spend the extra money on HiFi... I'd "probably" settle for a $30K setup for all those issues and spend the remaining $70K to go out to live events... But then again, who knows what I'd actually spend that money on if I had it? So it's best to let the potential purchasers make the value decision themselves...

Live performances are not always the best they can be. I have friends who are family to John Mellencamp and my wife and I have been invited to many of his performances. I recall one in Las Vegas at the Alladin which was absolutely great. It was the last of the tour and everyone was in synch, Mellenacamp, the band, the audience. It was the best I'd heard from him.

Later the same year he performed at about the same size venue on the campus of IU in Bloomington, Indiana and it was terrible. We had comparable seats, but the sound was much too loud and the bass was booming so much it hurt your ears and upset your stomach. I would have rather stayed home and listened to my rig.

It was a good experience overall. My wife and I were able to meet the band several times and his wife is a real sweetheart. John on the other hand----.

[GMichael]

Some also want to claim that anything that costs more than they have spent is a rip-off and just audiophile jewelry...

Anyway you take it, there are @$$holes on both sides of the argument... whether it be the person who buys expensive gear for bragging rights or the guy who does nothing but start threads about how much of a ripoff expensive gear is (compared to his gear)...

True. It is hard to swing a dead cat without hitting an @$$hole somewhere.