$35K for Speaker Cables!

[Ajani]

Clearly, it ain't the parts then. You're merely contributing to a fund towards his overdue 20 year research salary

Quite Possibly!!!

[emaidel]

Good Lord, has this thread ever gone waaayyyy off topic. The initial title was "$35K for speaker cables!" with the clear indication that that eye-popping price tag opened Pandora's box in terms of whether or not they were worth it. In my opinion, as well as that of some others, no freakin' way! That amount of money can buy a nice CAR, for krissakes!

A $35K automobile, while hardly outrageously expensive by today's standards, is still a pretty decent piece of machinery, taking hours and hours of labor, and thousands of parts to put together. Yes, the same can be said for a much cheaper car, but then a $35K car most definitely will be better appointed, be more comfortable to sit in and drive, and likely, outlast the cheaper car. In many respects, certain $35K cars are out and out "values."

One can't say the same thing for $35K speaker cables. Unless they're made of pure gold, or some other superexpensive material, there's just no reasonable explanation I can think of to justify the price. I'm sure they'll significantly outperform my $600 Z-Series cables, but certainly not enough to justify the difference in price between the two..

Insofar as my $4K (not $5K) watch, like pappa said, it's a "precison" timepiece, painstakingly and lovingly assembled in Switzerland. In the 15 years that I've owned it, it hasn't lost or gained a second (save the few times the battery had to be replaced), which I don't think can be said of a Timex (are they still around?), or a $200 Seiko. While not a "value," it's worth every cent of its price, and will likely outlast me, my step-children, and my grandchildren. And, those grandchildren can expect the crystal to be as clear and scratch-free as it still is since the day I received it.

I know this won't satisfy everyone, but it's my opinion, for whatever that may be worth.

[nightflier]

So basically what's in the box is all passive & simple, but more importantly does not change the signal. So how does that justify a $35K price tag?

When you ask "Don't many other manufacturers have a similar configuration?".... the answer is 'yes' assuming that by similar configuration you mean "just a cable with some box hanging off of them"... A Hyundai is just a pile of metal with some rubber tires, as is a Bentley, so they could be deemed to be the same configuration as well...

As with the watch examples mentioned by others, and my poor attempt at pointing this out with my Lamm reference, a Hyundai is infinitely more complex than a cable. I would suggest that a cable is a lot closer to GMichael's toothpick than a Bentley or a Ferrari. If we're going to talk about manufacturing, let's be honest and admit that.

But let me ask you this: if MIT cracked open the box and justified the cost to you (including a reasonable profit margin), would you consider it to be any less 'ridiculous' an expenditure?

How could they even begin to justify $35K? The point is they couldn't and they won't. The closer the reviewers and the public get to understanding what kind of snake the oil came from, the worse this process of unveiling the hocus pocus becomes for the manufacturer. The fact is, it's not something they will ever be able to justify.

Their argument being that they are all about sound quality and that the free market is what will prevent manufacturers from achieving ridiculous profit margins...

Pigs will fly sooner than the day the free market will prevent manufacturers from achieving ridiculous profit margins. As prices for products reach the stratosphere of their market sector, the free market disappears entirely. That is, at these prices there is no free market or competition, nor are there any controls or regulations - it is the polar opposite of the free market.

Since any competitor can decide to produce a better cable than MIT for less and take MIT's customers (assuming MIT is making ridiculous profit margins)... That is how brands like Emotiva, Axiom, Oppo, Odyssey Audio, etc operate, isn't it? They believe they can make better products for less and clearly many consumers agree with them...

None of these manufacturers compete in that price segment. The ones that do, like Nordost, mentioned before, are a small club of jewelry and toy makers mostly for clients who are neither very discerning nor interested. Since reviewers are given unrealistic discounts (sometimes as much as 80% and even free), they don't count.

Those very few gifted experts (the specialists, the golden-eared, people in the audio industry, etc.) who do travel in those circles (and still receive discounts), buy the products not because they are necessarily better, but rather because the products may have a certain quality or attribute that appeals to their sensibilities in very specific systems. Take the YG Acoustics Anat Reference II speakers, at a comparatively low $107,000, for example. Those that have paid the full price for them (not the musicians pictured in their ads), choose this speaker for a few infinitely minute qualities and abilities that are typically only revealed on equally expensive gear and listening rooms that they happen to own. It may even be the case that this difference is so infinitesimal that it exists only in their heads, but to them it's real and so they pay for it. All that being said, those people represent an extremely small portion of the customer base for extravagantly-priced audio gear purchased new at full price - the vast majority of the customers simply have money to burn and want bragging rights.

And this supports my point that at this price point, the cable isn't necessarily better than one that costs the same, a bit less, or even half as much. It just sounds ever so slightly different. This also negates the claim that that little box does not color the signal just a smidgen (for them to be different enough to justify it). In any case, it's overpriced for what it is. $35K for a watch, a Lamm preamp, or even a car, is a totally different argument because of the complexity involved in manufacturing those components, and the complete lack thereof in a pair of cables.

[GMichael]

My toothpicks are only $500. That represents a significant savings over $35,000. How many would you like? Any orders over 50 pieces will receive a whopping 5% discount. I'll even pick up the freight.
How's that for a free market?

[Ajani]

So basically what's in the box is all passive & simple, but more importantly does not change the signal. So how does that justify a $35K price tag?



As with the watch examples mentioned by others, and my poor attempt at pointing this out with my Lamm reference, a Hyundai is infinitely more complex than a cable. I would suggest that a cable is a lot closer to GMichael's toothpick than a Bentley or a Ferrari. If we're going to talk about manufacturing, let's be honest and admit that.



How could they even begin to justify $35K? The point is they couldn't and they won't. The closer the reviewers and the public get to understanding what kind of snake the oil came from, the worse this process of unveiling the hocus pocus becomes for the manufacturer. The fact is, it's not something they will ever be able to justify.



Pigs will fly sooner than the day the free market will prevent manufacturers from achieving ridiculous profit margins. As prices for products reach the stratosphere of their market sector, the free market disappears entirely. That is, at these prices there is no free market or competition, nor are there any controls or regulations - it is the polar opposite of the free market.



None of these manufacturers compete in that price segment. The ones that do, like Nordost, mentioned before, are a small club of jewelry and toy makers mostly for clients who are neither very discerning nor interested. Since reviewers are given unrealistic discounts (sometimes as much as 80% and even free), they don't count.

Those very few gifted experts (the specialists, the golden-eared, people in the audio industry, etc.) who do travel in those circles (and still receive discounts), buy the products not because they are necessarily better, but rather because the products may have a certain quality or attribute that appeals to their sensibilities in very specific systems. Take the YG Acoustics Anat Reference II speakers, at a comparatively low $107,000, for example. Those that have paid the full price for them (not the musicians pictured in their ads), choose this speaker for a few infinitely minute qualities and abilities that are typically only revealed on equally expensive gear and listening rooms that they happen to own. It may even be the case that this difference is so infinitesimal that it exists only in their heads, but to them it's real and so they pay for it. All that being said, those people represent an extremely small portion of the customer base for extravagantly-priced audio gear purchased new at full price - the vast majority of the customers simply have money to burn and want bragging rights.

And this supports my point that at this price point, the cable isn't necessarily better than one that costs the same, a bit less, or even half as much. It just sounds ever so slightly different. This also negates the claim that that little box does not color the signal just a smidgen (for them to be different enough to justify it). In any case, it's overpriced for what it is. $35K for a watch, a Lamm preamp, or even a car, is a totally different argument because of the complexity involved in manufacturing those components, and the complete lack thereof in a pair of cables.

WTH is in a watch to Justify $35K? Platinum and Diamonds??? Does that make the time any more accurate? Is the performance in anyway worth the difference over a $350 watch???

The point I've tried to make is that you guys will make a big stink over HiFi components costing obscene amounts, but accept all kind of excessive prices in other luxury goods... You have an issue with reviewers and elitists buying cables for some barely noticeable improvement in sound, but you accept that a $35K watch offers some kind of improvement over a $350 or even a $35 watch... Nonsense! A man buys a $35K watch because it is a hand crafted work of art (and possibly just to show he is a rich dou..bag), not because it's performance in anyway justifies its price-tag... So why can't an audiophile buy an expensive cable?

And even when you go back to the cable being like a toothpick, my question is: do you believe an Amplifier can be worth $35K? Many persons claim there is nothing to justify an amp costing so much (and an amp is a lot more complicated than a toothpick or a cable or even a wa...)

[Ajani]

My toothpicks are only $500. That represents a significant savings over $35,000. How many would you like? Any orders over 50 pieces will receive a whopping 5% discount. I'll even pick up the freight.
How's that for a free market?

That's fine, if you can get someone to buy $500 toothpicks, then good luck with that...

[nightflier]

I don't think you can extricate just performance for this argument. The manufacturing, or in the case of the cable, the dearth of manufacturing, is intricately linked to performance. As a component becomes more complex, more things can affect performance.

do you believe an Amplifier can be worth $35K? Many persons claim there is nothing to justify an amp costing so much (and an amp is a lot more complicated than a toothpick or a cable or even a wa...)

I do believe it, although it needn't be that expensive for my needs.

[Ajani]

Good Lord, has this thread ever gone waaayyyy off topic. The initial title was "$35K for speaker cables!" with the clear indication that that eye-popping price tag opened Pandora's box in terms of whether or not they were worth it. In my opinion, as well as that of some others, no freakin' way! That amount of money can buy a nice CAR, for krissakes!

A $35K automobile, while hardly outrageously expensive by today's standards, is still a pretty decent piece of machinery, taking hours and hours of labor, and thousands of parts to put together. Yes, the same can be said for a much cheaper car, but then a $35K car most definitely will be better appointed, be more comfortable to sit in and drive, and likely, outlast the cheaper car. In many respects, certain $35K cars are out and out "values."

One can't say the same thing for $35K speaker cables. Unless they're made of pure gold, or some other superexpensive material, there's just no reasonable explanation I can think of to justify the price. I'm sure they'll significantly outperform my $600 Z-Series cables, but certainly not enough to justify the difference in price between the two..

Insofar as my $4K (not $5K) watch, like pappa said, it's a "precison" timepiece, painstakingly and lovingly assembled in Switzerland. In the 15 years that I've owned it, it hasn't lost or gained a second (save the few times the battery had to be replaced), which I don't think can be said of a Timex (are they still around?), or a $200 Seiko. While not a "value," it's worth every cent of its price, and will likely outlast me, my step-children, and my grandchildren. And, those grandchildren can expect the crystal to be as clear and scratch-free as it still is since the day I received it.

I know this won't satisfy everyone, but it's my opinion, for whatever that may be worth.

It is your right to determine if your $4K watch is worth it to you... While I appreciate the exquisite craftsmanship and selection of materials involved in making such a watch, I don't personally see it as being worth the money... But who cares whether I think it is, you're the person who made the purchase...

$4K for a speaker cable is not worth it to me either, because I'd rather buy a pair of Speakers for that money and use some sub $200 speaker cables with them... But once again, who cares what I personally think it is worth... The man with the $4K should be allowed to make that decision himself...

It's not for me to tell you whether a watch, cable, phone or pair of jeans is worth $4K... That's a decision you make on your own...

I just find it amusing how willing we are to accept extreme prices for some products but are so offended by the prices of others...

An excellent condition copy of the first appearance of Superman sold recently for $1M... A Picasso print (not original) sells for an exorbitant amount of money... A bottle of wine can cost thousands... Yet we casually accept so many of these things...

[Ajani]

I don't think you can extricate just performance for this argument. The manufacturing, or in the case of the cable, the dearth of manufacturing, is intricately linked to performance. As a component becomes more complex, more things can affect performance.



I do believe it, although it needn't be that expensive for my needs.

So then we get to the question of what's the maximum you think an amp should sell for? and Also what's the maximum a pair of speaker cables should sell for?

Price is determined by what consumers are willing to pay... Why should a painting sell for $200,000??? Did the artist really put that much time and materials into the piece to justify such a price tag? If someone thinks that "10 years of the MIT founder's time for research" justifies the cost of the cable, then who am I to argue with him?

[nightflier]

If MIT spent every day of those 10 years at developing just these cables, then I suppose it's a bargain, but we all know that's not even close to being the case.

I'd pay quite a bit for art (and I have) but that's again, a totally different subject - just like the watch, amp and car - completely different levels of complexity.

What I have such a hard time with is that something should cost what people will pay for it. This is nonsense. There will always be suckers, but at the $35K price point for cables, there is no such thing as market competition. That people are gullible enough to pay for it doesn't at all address whether these cables really are worth $35K. More importantly, that kind of blind extravagance leads me to believe that they probably wouldn't hear a difference from any other cable and probably couldn't care either way.

(I am politely excluding that very small percentage of rich specialists who believe they do hear a difference under their own very unique set of circumstances - more power to them).

[Ajani]

If MIT spent every day of those 10 years at developing just these cables, then I suppose it's a bargain, but we all know that's not even close to being the case.

I'd pay quite a bit for art (and I have) but that's again, a totally different subject - just like the watch, amp and car - completely different levels of complexity.

What I have such a hard time with is that something should cost what people will pay for it. This is nonsense. There will always be suckers, but at the $35K price point for cables, there is no such thing as market competition. That people are gullible enough to pay for it doesn't at all address whether these cables really are worth $35K. More importantly, that kind of blind extravagance leads me to believe that they probably wouldn't hear a difference from any other cable and probably couldn't care either way.

(I am politely excluding that very small percentage of rich specialists who believe they do hear a difference under their own very unique set of circumstances - more power to them).

Art prices are about complexity then? So when an unknown artist spends an entire week painting a forest scene in order to capture each detail of the scenery and gets a meager $150 for his painting, while a renown artist splashes a yellow dot on a white canvas and sells that work for $15K, that's an issue of complexity?

The reason so many accept art prices is because we have been socialized to believe that these things represent having refined and exquisite tastes... much like wine, watches and cars... Audio is scrutinized and insulted because it is not regarded the same way (at least in the western world!)...

IMO, there is absolutely nothing to justify why a painting should cost $35K, but a cable shouldn't... The materials cost of the cable is likely far more expensive than paint and a canvas... and the actual man hours whether for R&D or hand assembly are possibly much greater too...

[poppachubby]

The funny thing about those MIT guys, is they would do the research for free. I'm sure a fun weekend for them is snuggling with a calculator and microscope.

[emaidel]

Ajani, you seem to think that those of us reponding to this thread feel high prices are justified for anything and everything except audio equipment, and that's just not so.

Criticizing prices for works of art is a bit silly, since art collectors and museums aren't, and never have been, concerned about how much time it took to paint a certain painting, how much the paint itself cost, and such. The value of many artworks is an intangible, and "worth it" to those involved either in the industry, or as collectors. I suspect the original of the Mona Lisa, should it ever become available for sale, would cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but it surely didn't cost da Vinci anywhere near that to paint it. Does that make the price "ridiculous?" Of course not.

What most of us here have a problem with is a matter of degree. I will happily pay hundreds of dollars for speaker cables, and audio interconnects, and have done so many times. I also have paid thousands for amplification. But I will NOT pay anything near $35K for a set of wires, no matter how "exotic" they may be, because I simply refuse to believe they can offer anywhere near the level of performance such a high price commands.

I drive a Mercedes E-class automobile. "Conspicuous consumption?" Hardly.

We purchased a 1997 E-420 as a used "Starmark" vehicle in 2001. Today, with over 222,000 miles on it, it's still tight as a drum, drives and handles superbly, and due to my slavish attention to the finish of the car, inside and out, it could still sit on the showroom floor. Routine servicing is done by a competent shop that specializes in Mercedes and BMW automobiles.

New, the car retailed for $54,000. That's still expensive, even today. Was it worth it? By your standards, no, since you seem to object to anything that's expensive as "excess." To me, the answer is a definite, "Yes, it is." Would a 1997 Camry, Accord, Taurus or Impala have held up as well? I hardly think so. That doesn't mean those cars are "junk,." What it means is that the high price for the E-420 was justified.

$35K for speakers cables isn't.

[poppachubby]

Ajani, you seem to think that those of us reponding to this thread feel high prices are justified for anything and everything except audio equipment, and that's just not so.

Criticizing prices for works of art is a bit silly, since art collectors and museums aren't, and never have been, concerned about how much time it took to paint a certain painting, how much the paint itself cost, and such. The value of many artworks is an intangible, and "worth it" to those involved either in the industry, or as collectors. I suspect the original of the Mona Lisa, should it ever become available for sale, would cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but it surely didn't cost da Vinci anywhere near that to paint it. Does that make the price "ridiculous?" Of course not.

What most of us here have a problem with is a matter of degree. I will happily pay hundreds of dollars for speaker cables, and audio interconnects, and have done so many times. I also have paid thousands for amplification. But I will NOT pay anything near $35K for a set of wires, no matter how "exotic" they may be, because I simply refuse to believe they can offer anywhere near the level of performance such a high price commands.

I drive a Mercedes E-class automobile. "Conspicuous consumption?" Hardly.

We purchased a 1997 E-420 as a used "Starmark" vehicle in 2001. Today, with over 222,000 miles on it, it's still tight as a drum, drives and handles superbly, and due to my slavish attention to the finish of the car, inside and out, it could still sit on the showroom floor. Routine servicing is done by a competent shop that specializes in Mercedes and BMW automobiles.

New, the car retailed for $54,000. That's still expensive, even today. Was it worth it? By your standards, no, since you seem to object to anything that's expensive as "excess." To me, the answer is a definite, "Yes, it is." Would a 1997 Camry, Accord, Taurus or Impala have held up as well? I hardly think so. That doesn't mean those cars are "junk,." What it means is that the high price for the E-420 was justified.

$35K for speakers cables isn't.

Well put. +1 here...

[GMichael]

That's fine, if you can get someone to buy $500 toothpicks, then good luck with that...

If someone wants to spend it, well.... it is their money. They have that right.

[Ajani]

Ajani, you seem to think that those of us reponding to this thread feel high prices are justified for anything and everything except audio equipment, and that's just not so.

Criticizing prices for works of art is a bit silly, since art collectors and museums aren't, and never have been, concerned about how much time it took to paint a certain painting, how much the paint itself cost, and such. The value of many artworks is an intangible, and "worth it" to those involved either in the industry, or as collectors. I suspect the original of the Mona Lisa, should it ever become available for sale, would cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but it surely didn't cost da Vinci anywhere near that to paint it. Does that make the price "ridiculous?" Of course not.

What most of us here have a problem with is a matter of degree. I will happily pay hundreds of dollars for speaker cables, and audio interconnects, and have done so many times. I also have paid thousands for amplification. But I will NOT pay anything near $35K for a set of wires, no matter how "exotic" they may be, because I simply refuse to believe they can offer anywhere near the level of performance such a high price commands.

I drive a Mercedes E-class automobile. "Conspicuous consumption?" Hardly.

We purchased a 1997 E-420 as a used "Starmark" vehicle in 2001. Today, with over 222,000 miles on it, it's still tight as a drum, drives and handles superbly, and due to my slavish attention to the finish of the car, inside and out, it could still sit on the showroom floor. Routine servicing is done by a competent shop that specializes in Mercedes and BMW automobiles.

New, the car retailed for $54,000. That's still expensive, even today. Was it worth it? By your standards, no, since you seem to object to anything that's expensive as "excess." To me, the answer is a definite, "Yes, it is." Would a 1997 Camry, Accord, Taurus or Impala have held up as well? I hardly think so. That doesn't mean those cars are "junk,." What it means is that the high price for the E-420 was justified.

$35K for speakers cables isn't.

Nope, you still don't get my point:

I don't object to anything (you guys are the ones who object to expensive cables)... Whether your Mercedes or your watch is worth it should be your decision and not mine... I am just saying that the same courtesy should apply to HiFi...

Why do persons feel it's OK to laugh at someone for buying very expensive HiFi and yet feel offended if someone else questions the value of their car, watch or art?

The same way you feel that your watch and car are worth their high price tags, a golden eared audiophile feels that his expensive cables are worth theirs... So why is he ridiculed and you are defended?

The same way that some persons may buy a Mercedes because they love the car, while others will buy one just to show that they have money; is the way that some audiophiles will buy an expensive cable because they believe the performance is worth it, while others will buy it just to show off...

Anyway, I've made my points enough time in this thread... So clearly all I'm doing at this point is repeating myself... For those who still don't agree with me and think we should all ridicule persons who buy expensive cables, then we just have to agree to disagree at this point...

[02audionoob]

One man's excess is another man's pocket change. If someone has the disposable income to spend $35,000 on speaker cables, I want them to do it. It's better for us all if that money is floating around the economy rather than sitting in one person's bank account.

[GMichael]

Nope, you still don't get my point:

I don't object to anything (you guys are the ones who object to expensive cables)... Whether your Mercedes or your watch is worth it should be your decision and not mine... I am just saying that the same courtesy should apply to HiFi...

Why do persons feel it's OK to laugh at someone for buying very expensive HiFi and yet feel offended if someone else questions the value of their car, watch or art?

The same way you feel that your watch and car are worth their high price tags, a golden eared audiophile feels that his expensive cables are worth theirs... So why is he ridiculed and you are defended?

The same way that some persons may buy a Mercedes because they love the car, while others will buy one just to show that they have money; is the way that some audiophiles will buy an expensive cable because they believe the performance is worth it, while others will buy it just to show off...

Anyway, I've made my points enough time in this thread... So clearly all I'm doing at this point is repeating myself... For those who still don't agree with me and think we should all ridicule persons who buy expensive cables, then we just have to agree to disagree at this point...

I think that the point you seem to miss (or at least haven't acknowledged) is that there is a lot more involved with building a car or watch than a wire or toothpick.

[Ajani]

I think that the point you seem to miss (or at least haven't acknowledged) is that there is a lot more involved with building a car or watch than a wire or toothpick.

Nope, I have not missed that... and how do you know that there is more involved in a watch than in the "magic box" attached to the MIT cables?

Complexity alone is not justification for cost...

Is a watch more complex than an iMac???? Nope, so why do so many watches cost substantially more than the most expensive iMac? Is a watch more useful than an iMac??? Hell No! But persons will pay excessive amounts for a Platinum and Diamond watch but would be utterly pissed if a more expensive iMac model is released.... It's just a matter of what people have been socialized to accept... If I buy a Platinum and Diamond Watch for $10K, I have refined tastes and appreciation for the finer things in life, but If I bought a suped up iMac for that money, I'd be a dope....


Anyway, as I said before: Let's agree to disagree... and I will leave this and future bashing threads to persons who wish to do so....

[GMichael]

Nope, I have not missed that... and how do you know that there is more involved in a watch than in the "magic box" attached to the MIT cables?

Complexity alone is not justification for cost...

Is a watch more complex than an iMac???? Nope, so why do so many watches cost substantially more than the most expensive iMac? Is a watch more useful than an iMac??? Hell No! But persons will pay excessive amounts for a Platinum and Diamond watch but would be utterly pissed if a more expensive iMac model is released.... It's just a matter of what people have been socialized to accept... If I buy a Platinum and Diamond Watch for $10K, I have refined tastes and appreciation for the finer things in life, but If I bought a suped up iMac for that money, I'd be a dope....


Anyway, as I said before: Let's agree to disagree... and I will leave this and future bashing threads to persons who wish to do so....

Do you really think that magic box is more complicated than a car or watch?

As far as Ipods, I'm sure if you made one out of gold and diamonds, someone would buy them. (I'd laugh at that too)

Nobody is saying that people can't spend their money any way they want. We're just laughing at $35k for a wire.

[Feanor]

One man's excess is another man's pocket change. If someone has the disposable income to spend $35,000 on speaker cables, I want them to do it. It's better for us all if that money is floating around the economy rather than sitting in one person's bank account.

Or they could donate it to help people when their unemployment or health coverage expires due to a$$holes the US Congress.

I think it's time we end the hypocrasy that personal spending on extravagances of dubious value is as economically beneficial as directly helping people to eat and get medical treatment.

[GMichael]

Or they could donate it to help people when their unemployment or health coverage expires due to a$$holes the US Congress.

I think it's time we end the hypocrasy that personal spending on extravagances of dubious value is as economically beneficial as directly helping people to eat and get medical treatment.

It would help my family if they started buying my toothpicks.

[Ajani]

Or they could donate it to help people when their unemployment or health coverage expires due to a$$holes the US Congress.

I think it's time we end the hypocrasy that personal spending on extravagances of dubious value is as economically beneficial as directly helping people to eat and get medical treatment.

Damn, I hate how my lack of self control refuses to let me stay out of this thread

But this always reminds me of some of my favourite lyrics from "Praying for Time" by George Michael:

This is the year of the hungry man
Whose place is in the past
Hand in hand with ignorance
And legitimate excuses

The rich declare themselves poor
And most of us are not sure
If we have too much
But we'll take our chances
Because god's stopped keeping score

I find it to be an apt description of most of us (middle class)... When do you have too much??? I only own a humble $2K pair of speakers, so that's not extravagant... The guy with the $20K pair has too much... Yeah sure... Tell that to the homeless man... Tell him that a $4K watch is a justifiable expenditure...

At the end of the day, we all choose to deny that we have more than we need, but we are quick to point fingers at the excesses of persons with more than us...

[poppachubby]

I believe the children are our future, teach them well and...

[Ajani]

I believe the children are our future, teach them well and...

let them lead the way... show them all the beauty they posses inside...

I love sing alongs!!! Now let's all join hands and sing together as one Audiophile community!!!