What are the most overrated speaker brands, IYO?

[theaudiohobby]

It's difficult to discuss issues with someone who picks and chooses which points in an argument they will acknowledge and respond to, and decides when to take obvious idioms literally .
Safe to say I feel you've missed my point altogether.

I generally take selected issues when I respond to posts so that I do not bugged down in trivia, apologies if you felt I took words too literally. In this case, the whole tone of your post was comtemptuous of those who spend a lot of money, more than what you deem acceptable, on their audio equipment. I highlighted idioms that I felt captured the overall tone of your post.

I don't believe a person spending 20K or more on a system is neurotic by the standard definition...(though it was a very cool word to use at the time). I don't "sneer" at them, or look down upon them, as they look down upon the kid with the $1000 system. Rather, I pity them, as I said, for the extreme difficulty and great costs required for them to be happy.

I don't deny the increased satisfaction a person might feel when buying a 100K system.

I challenge that a 100K system is always better than say, a 50K system, or 20K system, even ceterus paribus. At 100K, I feel there are other factors than "sound" alone that come into play...Who's to say the intrinsic value of all 3 of these carefully crafted systems isn't only $4000? To imply a carefully crafted 100K system is better than 20K system all the time would suggest that every being on this planet would choose the 100K system over the 20K system, every single time. I'm quite sure that is as close to an absolute impossibility as we can have.

I maintain that the assumption that cost and performance are strongly and directly correlated is a poor assumption to make. You ever chosen one similarly priced speaker over another?

There is correlation between price and performance, however the law of diminishing returns applies more forcefully as you climb the ladder, and in this respect audio is not different from many other items. To put it to you pointedly that median value of USD2K is simply a line drawn in the sand. As I maintain that a USD20K put together with requisite expertise will absolutely sound superior to a USD2K system within reason. Whether you feel the improvements worth the extra 18K is another matter entirely, showing contempt (pity, looking down or whatever word you use in its place) to those that think the improvements is worth the extra money in unacceptable and stinking thinking.

I do have issue with the fact that those who spend more are somehow enlightened as to what sounds good, and bad, more so than a person with a 1K system.

I did not say anybody who can afford more than USD1K system is more enlighted, I said that they can increase their enjoyment of the music they like, improved sound quality if it matters to them, by investing more money in their audio reproduction equipment and better quality software where available.

The only issue with Florian I have is the "holier than thou" attitude he, as a moderator, seems to adopted in this thread.

Only to replace it with a "holier than thou" attitude of your own.

[kexodusc]

I generally take selected issues when I respond to posts so that I do not bugged down in trivia, apologies if you felt I took words too literally.

Convenient

In this case, the whole tone of your post was comtemptuous of those who spend a lot of money

Contempt? As in disdain, dislike, hatred? You're way off...Don't know what else I can say. If I said you were in left field, I'd be too generous. Here's an invitation for you to put me in my place once and for all, as I grow weary of your miscontruing my statements, whether deliberate or accidental...Are you ready, here goes:

Find me one example where I demonstrate anything remotely close to contempt to people who "spend alot of money" -- (fyi: I spend a lot of money).
If you cannot, kindly apologize.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this medium (ie: web forum) doesn't capture the "tone" I would otherwise be portraying.

I'm afraid you have it ass backwards. There are two occurances of "contempt" here:
1) The "holier than thou attitude" of some, lumping those without gear of an as yet to be disclosed monetary value as having "the lack of knowledge and envy for people with high pricetag systems"
2) My contempt for such statements.

There is correlation between price and performance, however the law of diminishing returns applies more forcefully as you climb the ladder, and in this respect audio is not different from many other items. To put it to you pointedly that median value of USD2K is simply a line drawn in the sand. As I maintain that a USD20K put together with requisite expertise will absolutely sound superior to a USD2K system within reason. Whether you feel the improvements worth the extra 18K is another matter entirely, showing contempt (pity, looking down etc) to those that think the improvements is worth the extra money in unacceptable and stinking thinking.

I'm afraid you continue to repeat yourself over and over again, but you still aren't making sense...let me hold your hand and walk you through this one -
Let's assume we poll 100 people, asking which of the two systems they prefer (performance-wise), the 100K or the 20K...even if it is 90/10 in favor of the 100K system, the truth remains that subjectivity exists, and the 100K system is not universally "better" than the 20K system. There's just too much personal tastes to make such a statement.
Let's use another extreme example...I'm fairly confident a 100K, but properly matching Bose system won't outperform a 20K Magnepan system.

Oddly enough, you admit the diminishing returns, yet you fail to admit the possibility that beyond 20K, the returns are so small, so incremental that, that added benefit of a more expensive system isn't always enough to create a clear winner 100% of the time.
I would argue that the 80K pricetag difference might really only contribute a mere fraction of a percentage in terms of performance benefits, which may or may not make it "better" to the audience.

I did not say anybody who can afford more than USD1K system is more enlighted,

I did not accuse you of this...I was referring to the man you appear to be defending when he stated such condescending things as "the lack of knowledge and envy for people with high pricetag systems" and his use of a new paradigm "hifi vs. hi-end" (a statement which you also appeared to at least have some issue with) - after appearing to gloat about the cost of his system.

I said that they can increase their enjoyment of the music they like, improved sound quality if it matters to them, by investing more money in their audio reproduction equipment and better quality software where available.

On this I don't disagree, they can do whatever they wish to increase their enjoyment...provided they are careful, if not at least polite, when quantifying how superior their systems are in terms of performance to those of others.

Only to replace it with a "holier than thou" attitude of your own.

If my taking issue with the arrogance of others comes off as "holier than thou"...so be it.
Respectfully, I think if you read my posts again, you'll change your mind.

[theaudiohobby]

kexodusc,

I have said my piece and since I will rather not respond to your posts in full my previous post will suffice. In my previous posts, I write "all things being equal" i.e. comparing like for like, so when I read your Bose v Magnepan comments, it's big laugh. My last two posts remain as is, when the dust has settled reread your posts and mine, the issues I have against your responses are valid. Yes, Florian is showing off but so are you. Try not to feel pity for those who choose to spend a lot more than your median value on audio equipment, respect their choices, it is a twisted attitude when you don't.

[Florian]

How am i showing off? By owning a system of a high pricetag?

-Flo

[theaudiohobby]

Deleted in light on Flo's last response.

[Florian]

Thats not true, i was simply stating that i do not need a 20K system in order to enjoy the music. I would be happy with a 500$ system too, but i have had the oppertunity to buy such a expensive system, so i did.

-Flo

[theaudiohobby]

Thats not true, i was simply stating that i do not need a 20K system in order to enjoy the music. I would be happy with a 500$ system too, but i have had the oppertunity to buy such a expensive system, so i did.

-Flo

Would I be happy listening on a USD500 rig, when I could get much better for not much more relatively speaking? I don't think so. Do I need a 20K system to enjoy music? No, but I certainly want something more than USD500. The satellite radio and TDK S80 speakers have their place.

[theaudiohobby]

Find me one example where I demonstrate anything remotely close to contempt to people who "spend alot of money" -- (fyi: I spend a lot of money).
If you cannot, kindly apologize.

If there's nothing else you'd rather spend that last 40 K on when you already have a 20K system, then I think you need to get out and see the world a bit more. There's a point where I return to the lowly "mainstream" and just don't "get it" I guess...20K is probably close to it...and I'm proud to admit this. Yup, pity is the right word...to some, being able to do more with more is admirable, but me, I prefer to do more with less..

I don't presume to prevent people from spending 100K on a system - it's their money and their business...but I maintain that these people, whether they admit it or not, are satisfying more than just a desire for accurate musical playback, at whatever levels those may be. There's an intangible feel-good attribute that comes with owning prestigious gear. There's a point where these items do become, in part, "trailer-queens". I'll admit to being guilty of this in other hobbies in my life, but I won't deny it. Materialism at it's worst. At some point, perhaps not 20 K, more than just sound influences the decision to buy...

Here are examples for your records, "Pity" is being used here as an expression of contempt, as in condescending.

[DELETED]Here are examples for your records, "Pity" is being used here as a polite expression of contempt as in condescending and disdain.[DELETED]

[kexodusc]

Here are examples for your records, "Pity" is being used here as a polite expression of contempt, as in condescending and disdain.

You've done an excellent job of misconstruing most of my posts...why stop now?

"Polite expression of contempt"...as opposed to the traditional "mean expression of contempt"?
That's the best you could come up with? I figured as much. How long did it take you to come up with this arbitrary (and inaccurate) definition of "pity" as it's used?

Those phrases quite simply express my belief that these people are over-indulging...that's not spiteful, there's no contempt, merely a minor disagreement. I can't believe I even had to type this for you...

[Geoffcin]

No matter what gets posted under this header it's likely to offend someone. I think it's time to voluntarily call it quits before things get so heated that we have another unfortunate thread closing.

[Florian]

No matter what gets posted under this header it's likely to offend someone. I think it's time to voluntarily call it quits before things get so heated that we have another unfortunate thread closing.

I call it quits.

[theaudiohobby]

I call it quits.

ditto

[E-Stat]

No matter what gets posted under this header it's likely to offend someone. I think it's time to voluntarily call it quits before things get so heated that we have another unfortunate thread closing.

Gee, it got a bit warm in here, didn't it?

rw

[JoeE SP9]

I still want to know where you can get new Apogee's