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  1. #1
    AR Newbie Registered Member
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    May 2014
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    Hengelo, Overijssel
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    Update Maggie MG12 with sub and new X-over

    Hoi from the Netherlands,

    I'm new in this community and have two questions, from which I hope somebody can provide my with an answer:

    I’m busy at the moment to update my Maggies MG12. This update is a result of my recently build OTL (Tim Mellows design) and the possession of my two Maggies MG12. The idea is to connect the Maggies with a small subwoofer to enforce bass. After a lot of reading the sub will going to be a sealed box with a relatively high Qts to be able to follow the fast Maggies. Although it is best fit for a ported housing, I made the choice for the Audio Technology C-quenze 23SD speaker, with a lot of TS-parameters suitable for my goal. But this thread is not about the sub…..

    For reason of the combination with the sub I also decided to update the X-over, at least with better components. Basically the 2-way X-over will be transformed in a 3-way (2.5 way?) system. The goal of the C-quenze will be to support the MG12 bass section. So the MG12 bass which will keep the full bass input. The sub acts as an extra supporting, down firing bass section.

    I took a lot of time in several calculators and simulation programs to find a good design. In the Passive Crossover Designer of Jeff Bagby I started to bring in the 2-way original MG12 X-over, both in “in phase” configuration as in (tweeter) out-phase configuration. Although my Maggies don’t sound worse, the simulation was far from optimal. I noticed in the simulation a large overall SPL dip at 600Hz (in phase configuration) or a worse phase behavior in the out-of-phase configuration.
    Update Maggie MG12 with sub and new X-over-response-original.jpg
    In phase….. and
    Update Maggie MG12 with sub and new X-over-response-original-tweet-opposite.jpg

    out-of-phase…

    Because I love 6dB x-overs, I tried a simulation with only the original coil in series with the woofer (also without the parallel 50uF capacitor) and the existing 33uF capacitor for the tweeter. Much improvement made in simulation mode. Nearly flat SPL response and very nice phase behavior. Only a slight dip 450Hz.

    Update Maggie MG12 with sub and new X-over-response-2-way-6db-original-x-over-455.jpg

    After several simulation runs I noticed a full flat, ideal frequency response with a single coil of 2.2mH for the woofer and the original 33mF capacitor. Low X-over was now 550Hz.
    Because foil coils are not cheap and I had two Mundorfs of 1.8 mH at home I used them at a X-over frequency of 705 Hz with a small raise of 1dB at the X-over point.

    After this I combined an extra single Mundorf feron T200 transformer coil of 5.66mH for the C-quenze at 225Hz X-over in phase with the MG12 bass section. By that a 6dB SPL raise starting at about 2500Hz is obtained, compensating nicely the roll of of the C-quenze in a sealed enclosure. So again a 6dB X-over configuration with a nearly perfect phase behavior. Together with the substantial higher efficiency of the C-quenze (91 dB against 86 dB for the Maggie) a large “baffle step” compensation is obtained for the down firing subwoofer.
    Update Maggie MG12 with sub and new X-over-response-6db.jpg

    So, after a long introduction, finally my two questions:

    First, can somebody tell me if high and bass section of the original MG12 are in phase or out-of-phase?

    And secondly; has somebody any clue why Magnepan brought in the 12 dB configuration (so with the 50uF capacitor parallel to the woofer) for the bass section, although all simulation programs provide a far better phase behavior in 6dB X-over mode. Could it be that the bass section of the Maggies also have a kind of break-up behavior at higher frequencies?

    Thanks in advance,
    Marnix
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Update Maggie MG12 with sub and new X-over-response-2-way-6db-x-over-frequency-580.jpg  

  2. #2
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    St. Paul, Minnesota
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    5,421
    I own the Maggie 1.6's and MMG's. I run a Martin Logan sub with my 1.6's and it integrates well with the 1.6's running full range. I run my sub to cut off at 40-45Hz to fill in the bass. IMHO and experience with playing around with different settings, the Maggies sound the best if run full range and the sub set to cut off at the bottom of the Maggies freq response. Where people get into trouble with subs and Maggies are using cheap subs, especially ported and running the sub too loud or at too high a cross over. If the Maggies are not run full range, they just don't sound right!

    Martin Logan, Rythmik and the higher priced REL subs along with the Velodyne Digital Drive subs sound very good with Maggies. I favor non ported subs with them. My local Maggie dealer favors REL subs with them. I really liked the Britannia series but it is no longer made.

    I hope this helps some as I can't answer your technical questions.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  3. #3
    AR Newbie Registered Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Hengelo, Overijssel
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    3
    Hi Blackraven,

    Thanks for your reaction; I fully agree with you that with planar speakers you only can combine sealed enclosure (sub)woofers. Ported systems are far too slow and “flubby” for a planar speaker.

    Also as you indicate my Maggies with have the full audio input; my woofers will be an additional “support” at lower regions, to increase the lowest regions for especially pop and funky jazz recordings. For most a my classical records (the main I listen) this support is not necessary.

    I still hope somebody can provide me with answers on my two questions.

    Last remark; very strange…. Before I had never heard about St.Paul in Minnesota and suddenly within a month twice. Just beginning of this week I got two Zero’s from Paul Speltz, your city inhabitant. Must be more then coincidental.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Nov 2006
    Location
    St. Paul, Minnesota
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    The St Paul-Minneapolis area is a Mecca for Audio companies-

    Anticables, Van Alstine are made here in Woodbury-St Paul. Magnepan, Bel Canto, Atma-Sphere, ARC are in the burb's. I have been to the Maggie factory.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  5. #5
    AR Newbie Registered Member
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    May 2014
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    Hengelo, Overijssel
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    Hi Blackraven,

    Lucky Guy......

    For us in the Netherlands that's far away, although also in the Netherlands and in Germany (nearby) there are very fine compagnies.

    I myself are a audiophile but a typically DIT type. I always want to know how it work and why. Build a lot of my equipment myself.

    Attached some pictures of my latest OTL and pre-amp.

    Greetings from the Netherlands,
    Marnix

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