To sub, or not to sub. That is the question.

[GMichael]

And dont forget that most "subs" are actually "bass modules".
Few subs actually go down deep to real "sub" levels

Huh? My sub goes down to 20 htz. Are you saying that subs should go below human hearing? AKA sub-audible? Maybe one of these transducers would make a better "sub" then. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-864
5 htz to 800. Now THAT'S a sub!?

[musicman1999]

For ht my mains cross over at 50htz,the center at 60,the rears at 80.The system runs clear and clean down to the low 20's and the sub is invisible.For stereo i usually don't run with the sub but have the option of turning it on.My processor allows for a cinema speaker configuration and a music configuration.

bill

[PeruvianSkies]

I think (and this is going against what I used to think) that the best combination is to have NO sub for a strictly 2-channel system, on the premise that you are using speakers that you are happy with the low end on. Otherwise you might want to integrate a sub.

For HT purposes I used to think that floorstanders and sub was the best of both, but lately I feel that I am shifting between smaller fronts on stands with a sub. Shocking as it may seem I actually prefer (for the size room that I am using) my Polk Monitor 40's in HT application over my PSB Platinums. Again, if the room was larger and perhaps if I was using matching Platinums with the other speakers, than this might change, but nonetheless at this moment I like having the Monitor 40's.

[pixelthis]

Huh? My sub goes down to 20 htz. Are you saying that subs should go below human hearing? AKA sub-audible? Maybe one of these transducers would make a better "sub" then. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-864
5 htz to 800. Now THAT'S a sub!?

the lower the better, just like good porn.
True 20hz info is rare at any rate, they are counting on that when they rate these things.
It takes a hugh deal for extended bass output in the lower regions

ever hear about the russian plane that could survive two minutes of a nuclear
blast?
It was made of concrete and you pushed it off of a cliff, took it two minutes to
hit the ground.
Something like that
20hz at 500 watts...for about a minute.
Then your amp resembles campbells vegetable soup.
Or maybe you have a sub that can do true bass, if you do so I congradulate you.
And the guy who sold it to you (I'm sure he's quite well off)

[GMichael]

the lower the better, just like good porn.
True 20hz info is rare at any rate, they are counting on that when they rate these things.
It takes a hugh deal for extended bass output in the lower regions

ever hear about the russian plane that could survive two minutes of a nuclear
blast?
It was made of concrete and you pushed it off of a cliff, took it two minutes to
hit the ground.
Something like that
20hz at 500 watts...for about a minute.
Then your amp resembles campbells vegetable soup.
Or maybe you have a sub that can do true bass, if you do so I congradulate you.
And the guy who sold it to you (I'm sure he's quite well off)

It's a little hard to follow this rambling.

I'll be testing my sub in a few days. Then I'll post the results. But there are other subs out there claiming 15 htz and below. They have already posted graphs to show it. I'd look them up for you but you seem to know so much that I wouldn't want to waste your time like that.

Oh, and my 1000w rms sub cost me $500. Some assembly was required.

Yippy!!!! Wifey just called. My sound meter finally showed up! Testing to begin soon.

[bfalls]

I have two HT systems which are setup differently than most I've read about here. The first system has full-range Legacy Focus mains. The Focus have three 12" woofers/side. They're efficient (94db/w/m), but I thought I could get better midrange and power if I bi-amped. The mid/highs are driven by my Denon AVR-3300 105w/ch receiver and the subs by a Yamaha M-65 (170w/ch) amp. This configuration provides great mid-range and better control of the bass. I have no problems with placement or filling my 12.5'x25' room.
The second system is primarily Yamaha/Klipsch system with a custom-build ACI Saturn compound sub. The sub has two 12" with dual VC drivers in a push-pull configuration (mounted together face-to-face). The mains are Kg4s with dual 8" mid/woofers. In this 5.1 system the 5 are driven by my Yamaha RX-V2095 (100w/ch) and the .1 Saturn is driven by a Marantz M-700 mono amp. I also have an extra Klipsch SW8 powered sub which I use in the rear of the room to supply bass with the surrounds. The SW8 doesn't go very low, but provides adequate low end with the surrounds and better overall tonal balance.
So my Denon/Legacy system has full-range mains, but are set up as sub/satellite and my Yamaha/Klipsch system is a sub/sat system set up running the KG4s full-range. Both systems have their benefits and sound great. I can't really say one is better than the other, only different.

[GMichael]

I have two HT systems which are setup differently than most I've read about here. The first system has full-range Legacy Focus mains. The Focus have three 12" woofers/side. They're efficient (94db/w/m), but I thought I could get better midrange and power if I bi-amped. The mid/highs are driven by my Denon AVR-3300 105w/ch receiver and the subs by a Yamaha M-65 (170w/ch) amp. This configuration provides great mid-range and better control of the bass. I have no problems with placement or filling my 12.5'x25' room.
The second system is primarily Yamaha/Klipsch system with a custom-build ACI Saturn compound sub. The sub has two 12" with dual VC drivers in a push-pull configuration (mounted together face-to-face). The mains are Kg4s with dual 8" mid/woofers. In this 5.1 system the 5 are driven by my Yamaha RX-V2095 (100w/ch) and the .1 Saturn is driven by a Marantz M-700 mono amp. I also have an extra Klipsch SW8 powered sub which I use in the rear of the room to supply bass with the surrounds. The SW8 doesn't go very low, but provides adequate low end with the surrounds and better overall tonal balance.
So my Denon/Legacy system has full-range mains, but are set up as sub/satellite and my Yamaha/Klipsch system is a sub/sat system set up running the KG4s full-range. Both systems have their benefits and sound great. I can't really say one is better than the other, only different.

Nice systems you have there. I'm very jealous.

[pixelthis]

It's a little hard to follow this rambling.

I'll be testing my sub in a few days. Then I'll post the results. But there are other subs out there claiming 15 htz and below. They have already posted graphs to show it. I'd look them up for you but you seem to know so much that I wouldn't want to waste your time like that.

Oh, and my 1000w rms sub cost me $500. Some assembly was required.

Yippy!!!! Wifey just called. My sound meter finally showed up! Testing to begin soon.

Lets just say that I have become somewhat leery of specs and claims from audio manufacturers, a philidelpia laywer would be jealous of the way they wiggle around.
Ever heard the saying, "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics"?
Well, the same applies to specs in the audio world

[GMichael]

Lets just say that I have become somewhat leery of specs and claims from audio manufacturers, a philidelpia laywer would be jealous of the way they wiggle around.
Ever heard the saying, "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics"?
Well, the same applies to specs in the audio world

That's the smartest thing I've seen you say yet.

After testing my system it seems that my sub does go down to 20 htz. That is, if you can count -20db as a response. But by 25 hts it's up to -3 db. I'll accept that. By the way, 77 db at 25 hts does a good job of shaking the whole house. I found out what items in the house need to be tightened down. Our blinds on the door almost fell off.

[E-Stat]

And dont forget that most "subs" are actually "bass modules".
Few subs actually go down deep to real "sub" levels

Absolutely. The powered subs in my HT system fit that description. Or simply the woofers in a biamped three way system with the Polk RTi-35's 6" woofer acting as midrange. 30 hz is -4db down relative to the octaves above, but dives below that.

My next door neighbor in Georgia had a different arrangement with his HT. Used in wall speakers as mains / center which may have reproduced down to say 100 hz or so. He matched (or didn't as the case may be) those with a single massive 18" sub that was capable of subterranean response. The result was a giant suckout in the upper and mid bass and then the thump below which clearly emanated from the left corner of the room. I'll take my balanced and neutral sounding pair of almost-subs over that approach any day.

rw

[Feanor]

I know that many feel that a powered sub is like the kiss of death for stereo music. Others feel that you get more for your money with satellite speakers and a sub. Still others feel that good full range (or close to full range) towers with a good sub to supplement the very low lows is the best way to go. Which way do you do it and why? Would you change your method if price was no object?

This category is the winner, eh? It's what I selected; I might have selected Full Range but that would be misleading.

First, I use a sub with my HT driven by the LFE output with a setting of "Large" for fronts, center, and rears. I feel this is a no-brainer: though "large" my other speakers don't go down any below 50 Hz, nor can there output equal that of the 12" woofer.

On the other hand I also have a sub in my stereo setup. However I use my main speakers full range. For them that's down to about 45 Hz with about an 18dB/octave roll off. The sub is set with a 50 low-pass with, as I recall, a 18dB/oct roll off. Hence there is little overlap and integation is good. The sub is only supplying sound below 45-50Hz where the mains don't go. If I have mains that were flat to 25Hz I'd dispense with the sub for sure.

[DEVO]

I have never been a "big" fan a thunderous bass. I just want it to be controlled and clean. If I had some of the full range towers like some of the guys in this forum, then I would go w/ my ears...but w/ my ATF speakers by ML. They are not deep enough...they are VERY clean and w/ the addition of the Depth there is no noticable rolloff between the mids and lows. I would like to get another Depth, then turn down the vol. and the balance would be even better.

[emorphien]

The depth is a great sub, easily one of my favorites. It seems to blend and disappear very well.

[jt1stcav]

For my 2-channel system I am currently using bookshelf monitors in my small music room with a frequency response of 42Hz - 20kHz. Since I listen mainly to classical pipe organ music (with fundamental bass notes that can go all the way down to 16Hz at full tutti), my monitors alone cannot reproduce the music faithfully as intended. Therefor, I use two powered subwoofers that can produce bass into the 20's and still maintain a near-realistic projection of the recorded performances!

I have no HT system, so blasting out the neighbors with thunderous bass while watching explosions or jet fighters zoom by is not a concern for me.

I still own fullrange loudspeakers that will go down to 38Hz, but they're too big for my present room to tune in properly; even when I was using them, I still used a DIY 15" sub my brother built for me (tuned to 20Hz) so I could enjoy my pipe organ recordings in all their dynamic splendor! If I just listened to string quartets, small jazz ensembles, or a girl with a guitar, then I doubt I'd need or want a subwoofer...then again...

Sure, fiddling with phase and crossover controls, plus decent sub placement can be a PIA (corners aren't always the best places IMO, unless you like boom...it depends on your room). But once you have your sub(s) dialed in just right, they can blend in perfectly and disappear until they're needed with whatever loudspeakers you use, at least in my experience.

YMMV...

[hydroman]

Me? Full range mains with a 8" ported (soon to be a 15" sealed) sub is the best combo. The music rarely goes down to the sub, but movies do! I love the disconcerted looks from people as they experience movie theater sound in a home. My in-laws actully freaked a little as the house shook on the first big hit watching a movie.

[GMichael]

Me? Full range mains with a 8" ported (soon to be a 15" sealed) sub is the best combo. The music rarely goes down to the sub, but movies do! I love the disconcerted looks from people as they experience movie theater sound in a home. My in-laws actully freaked a little as the house shook on the first big hit watching a movie.

I love when the cats run out of the room and hide under my bed.
Put in Polar Express and even the most energetic kids will stop what they are doing and start watching the movie. (that is, if they don't run and cry)

[Rich-n-Texas]

The never ending poll...

I've come to the realization that despite my current situation with... *room modes*(I HATE saying that!) when listening to music, movies in Surround sound pretty good at the low end. If I had in-laws and needed to shake them up, what hydroman describes would be the perfect tool.

[pixelthis]

Nobodys mentioned the reason subs got started in the first place.
It was thought that if you could produce just bass from a single speaker it would improve the sound, because bass is nondirectional, and this would lessen distortion in
the mains, since they could now produce only treble and midrange.
In other words full range is a bit much for a speaker, you need a sun that is specialized
in bass, and a pair of mains that do mid and treble, and do it even better because
there is no distortion caused by bass.
That was the theory, anyway.
So, according to this theory a system with proper crossover and a sub should be more accurate.
In theory

[kcramer]

I guess for me, the sub has always been a compliment to my mains(speaking strictly in stereo mode). An "extension" of the sound. I pretty much turn the x-over all the way down (because I have relatively large mains) and keep it's volume low so it only "supplements" my mains. I ask people when they come over if they can hear the subwoofer and I always get "NO". Then I turn it off and they all say "ok something changed", then I turn it back on and they say "ohh, ok NOW I hear it"

The hate part is when I want to watch a movie. My center and surrounds are cut off at 60hz which means I have to turn my sub's x-over UP to watch flicks. Then in stereo mode, i have to turn the x-over back down again. I hate that but am not sure of a good way to avoid having to turn that crossover nob whenever I switch to a different format. One thing I could do is stop using the sub in stereo mode, but that's no fun. Well either way, my "system" is working, stereo sounds great as do movies. I guess I'm pretty happy with the sub always on...

[GMichael]

I guess for me, the sub has always been a compliment to my mains(speaking strictly in stereo mode). An "extension" of the sound. I pretty much turn the x-over all the way down (because I have relatively large mains) and keep it's volume low so it only "supplements" my mains. I ask people when they come over if they can hear the subwoofer and I always get "NO". Then I turn it off and they all say "ok something changed", then I turn it back on and they say "ohh, ok NOW I hear it"

The hate part is when I want to watch a movie. My center and surrounds are cut off at 60hz which means I have to turn my sub's x-over UP to watch flicks. Then in stereo mode, i have to turn the x-over back down again. I hate that but am not sure of a good way to avoid having to turn that crossover nob whenever I switch to a different format. One thing I could do is stop using the sub in stereo mode, but that's no fun. Well either way, my "system" is working, stereo sounds great as do movies. I guess I'm pretty happy with the sub always on...

Some receivers with built in LFE crossovers will let you store more than one set-up in memory. I switch from an 80 htz crossover for movies to a 40 htz crossover for music. I leave the sub's crossover turned all the way up. My mains have powered woofers that go down to 27 htz. You can barely tell that the sub is on or off with music. Often, I use the Pure Direct mode that leave the sub completely off.

If your receiver doesn't have multiple memory settings, you may be able to go into it's manual settings and set your center to large. Also make sure that the base output is going to "both" your mains and your sub.

[L.J.]

Some receivers with built in LFE crossovers will let you store more than one set-up in memory. I switch from an 80 htz crossover for movies to a 40 htz crossover for music. I leave the sub's crossover turned all the way up. My mains have powered woofers that go down to 27 htz. You can barely tell that the sub is on or off with music. Often, I use the Pure Direct mode that leave the sub completely off.

Hmm.....didn't know you could store diff xover settings. GM, are there limitations to what the Yammy can store (xover,eq,tone) in each of it's 6 memory savings? Also, did you note any improvements after running the auto eq and did you go with the "flat" or "natural" setting?

[GMichael]

Hmm.....didn't know you could store diff xover settings. GM, are there limitations to what the Yammy can store (xover,eq,tone) in each of it's 6 memory savings? Also, did you note any improvements after running the auto eq and did you go with the "flat" or "natural" setting?

You can save anything, and everything. You can go into manual settings and pick input types, surround preferences, decay rates, x-overs, volume levels, EQ settings, anything. You can save one that puts you in Straight mode with "these" X-over settings, another one that's DTS with "those" X-over settings. The world is at your finger tips. Limited only by the limits of your imagination.

I did notice a difference after running the auto EQ. It helped me to blow up the tweeters in my Mini's. (See my thread about tragedy strikes)
I ended up resetting all the EQ's to flat. I then went back in and manually cut a few peaks that I have in the room. Very little boosting was done.

[GMichael]

Let's see if I can remember most of what I have set on my 2500:

Memory setting:

1) Used for movies and most TV -
When the input is on cable, DPLII or whatever the letters are for that.
When the input is the DVR player, it's on DTS. It's easy enough to change that when the DVD doesn't have DTS.
The EQ is set to flat (haven't got around to modding this yet)
X-overs at 80 htz
The sub and center are both bumped up 2 db to give movies a little more punch without loosing the dialog.


2) Used for music and sports
Straight mode! (Pure Direct is a click away from any setting if wanted)
X-over at 40
The sub and center are both turned down 2 db from the original levels.
EQ is flat with minor changes do defeat a few peaks.
I switch from here to DPLII for sports. (I don't like the announcers as much as the effects. That's why I do this over number 1)

3) Experimentations for possible future use.

Skip to 6

6) The original results from the auto set-up so I don't have to re-run it every time I screw something up.
5) The original settings with the EQ set flat.
4) Number 5 with the x-overs set and speakers set to correct sizes.

[L.J.]

You can save anything, and everything. You can go into manual settings and pick input types, surround preferences, decay rates, x-overs, volume levels, EQ settings, anything. You can save one that puts you in Straight mode with "these" X-over settings, another one that's DTS with "those" X-over settings. The world is at your finger tips. Limited only by the limits of your imagination.

I did notice a difference after running the auto EQ. It helped me to blow up the tweeters in my Mini's. (See my thread about tragedy strikes)
I ended up resetting all the EQ's to flat. I then went back in and manually cut a few peaks that I have in the room. Very little boosting was done.

Thanks GM. I plan on setting the eq manually as well. I don't know....I just don't trust the auto eq. I guess I'd have to do measurements eventually to see if there are any improvements or not. I will say that the Audyssey on the Onkyo 805 was sweet. VERY good for music but soso for HT. The response was sooo smooth, but at the same time it seemed like it took some of the dynamics away from HT.

That's good news about the memory settings. I will have to take the time to experiment now.

[Lance B]

The question should be:
"Does your system sound good to you however you have it set up?"
Whether you have a sub or not is not really the issue rather that you are happy with what you have.
You may like the addition of a sub due to your requirement of that extra octave, or half an octave, that they can provide and no amount of convincing will alter that desire.
Conversely, you may not have a sub and do not like the way they sound and therefore no amount of convincing will alter that perception.
I do not have a sub and I doubt that I ever will have one, but that is the way I like it. My speakers and amp have plenty of bass grunt for my requirements.
Having said all of the above, I have listended to a variety of sub installations and find that they are generally not implemented very well. Some tracks may sound ok or very good whereas others the bass is boomy and/or overpowering, disjointed, sloppy and very unnatural. It would need to be a very well set up sub to seemlessly work with my current full range speaker set up and this is a notoriously difficult thing to achieve. Realistically, a sub needs to be designed in conjuction with the full range speakers and room acoustics combined.