Speakers to hang on for life

[E-Stat]

At present, I own and listen to a pair of Polk Monitor 7c's with an Eosone RSP-112.

Should sound pretty nice. I use Polk RTi35s with a pair of Eosone RSP912s in the HT with a third octave EQ on the subs.

rw

[Auricauricle]

That must make for some mighty impressive teeth rattling, I suppose!

Although the set-up isn't full-range, this is my first experience with a passive radiator, it is a pleasant one nevertheless. Vocals are fairly neutral, and I can reproduce the timbre of woodwids somewhat pleasantly. Brass is passable, tending to be a bit less metalic than I would like. Still, for full orchestra, they hold their own pretty firmly....Okay, enough o' this. let's hear about your set up as well as the rest of you guys' gear. I love the sound of electrostatics, and this conversation has been quite good.

....As y'all were saying:

[theaudiohobby]

That's because it is a velocity source, there is no net pressure change in the room as the box (pressure source).

Nightflier, being in CA, you really should visit Linkwitz for a listen to his Orion system. It combines all the attributes of the panel type speakers (dipoles) using much smaller piston sources (dynamic drivers). The full setup (++) includes pressure source subs that you can certainly feel, though no so much in the 80hz region as you might desire on occasion. Go give a listen for yourself.

cheers,

AJ

Welcome AJ , glad to see you here.

[theaudiohobby]

The spooky thing about a true full range electrostat is that their character remains constant whether you have your face pressed up against the panels or you are at some distance away. Walking up to them from a distance has virtually no effect on the tonal balance or perspective. Just like real instruments.

rw

The tonal balance of real instruments change as one moves closer, strings (including piano) and brass get brighter as one moves closer.

[AJinFLA]

Hi Hobby,

Stumbled across the site by accident a couple days ago. Seems that the most views are for speaker related topics. Thought I'd chime in .
Like the sound of your Tannoys. Heard them as well as E-Stats Soundlabs. No need to settle for the better attributes of each, when you can have them all (yes, all those audiophile terms like coherency, transparency, etc,etc....and of course real life dynamics, the Achilles heal of the panels that identify them as speakers and not real musicians in the room).
When one becomes familiar enough with live acoustic music, the illusion becomes more difficult to recreate. But it's possible to come pretty close.

cheers,

AJ

[Mr Peabody]

Electrostats driven by good tube gear can reproduce a presence nothing short of haunting. It's been a while since I've had the pleasure of sitting in front of a pair so I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to lack of "dynamics". But nothing has given me more of a feeling of a real human than that combo. Have you ever had some one silently walk up on you and you could just feel their presence, it's that kind of thing. The best dynamics I've heard was probably Krell and Dynaudio. I've never heard any other combo come as close to making the snap, crash and impact of actual drums like that combo. Quite a powerful transcient response.

It was an abundance of macro and micro dynamics that brought me to Conrad Johnson tube gear. I found for the sitting and long listening that I preferred the textures and more natural feel but I had to give up that extreme transcient impact of Krell.

To me if you get the right electronics behind the ESL's to take the chill out of them acoustic instruments can sound great. I'm talking about true ESL's not just panels in general.

[AJinFLA]

It's been a while since I've had the pleasure of sitting in front of a pair so I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to lack of "dynamics".

Hi Mr. Peabody, my apologies, I should have been clearer. I speak of limited dynamics as constrained by the physics of physical reality, not as an audiophile. Things that are quantifiable, measurable (Spl, IM, etc.) and yes, quite audible.

The best dynamics I've heard was probably Krell and Dynaudio. I've never heard any other combo come as close to making the snap, crash and impact of actual drums like that combo. Quite a powerful transcient response.

Krell and Dynaudio? I've heard large models (direct radiator cone 'n dome box affairs) of both of those brands too. Hmm, you are a bit far from FL, but only about an 8hr drive from MI. Perhaps you could contact Dr Geddes to arrange a listen to his system (he's most accommodating to such requests from audiophiles) one weekend? See how close it comes to the matching the dynamics and realism of the Krell and Dynaudios?

To me if you get the right electronics behind the ESL's to take the chill out of them acoustic instruments can sound great. I'm talking about true ESL's not just panels in general.

I was unaware that ESL's suffered from low temperature issues. That's quite unusual, but perhaps (thankfully?) not as prevalent around my part of the nation? I'm still not sure how the thermal output of the amplifier would make it to the speaker terminals, as the connecting cables should dissipate heat rather quickly. Bizarre.
The Soundlabs I heard sounded quite nice, having many of the audible attributes I would want, but as stated earlier, was still constrained by the limits of physical reality (the surface area of the transducer(s) vs wavelength, etc, etc.). I can see where some (unaware of all the other possibilities) might be drawn to them.

cheers,

AJ

[Mr Peabody]

Let me apologize this time, I was saying "chill" as in the sound quality not temperature. I have heard Martin Logan on some solid state gear that made strings sound cold, or maybe a better way of saying it would be more unnatural. I prefer ML's better with neutral to warm electronics.

[E-Stat]

The tonal balance of real instruments change as one moves closer, strings (including piano) and brass get brighter as one moves closer.

Sorry, but I was talking in the context of the home environment in which we use our speakers. My wife's baby grand piano sounds no differently up close or fifteen feet away. Either you have a far larger room than my 25'x16' one or you are talking about comparing row C vs. the loge in a symphony hall, in which case I would agree.

rw

[E-Stat]

That must make for some mighty impressive teeth rattling, I suppose!

Hmmm. I think you're responding to my post, but if not, sorry. Actually, I use dual subs for qualitative purposes, not quantitative ones. Yes, it does provide more headroom, but I have two other reasons:

1. I address room placement / mode issues using the equalizer on the subs ONLY where I can fix the 60 /120 hz peaks and corresponding troughs in between. In order for that to be effective, however, it requires a higher crossover frequency than usual for the subs.

2. Integration of satellites to dual subs avoids directionality issues that would arise from using a single one given my choice above.

Okay, enough o' this. let's hear about your set up ...

Look here for details and pics.

rw

[Auricauricle]

Sorry for the delay in the reply....Just had to see how many shades of green I'd go through....Sweet, sweet....I especially liked the Souther!

[AJinFLA]

2. Integration of satellites to dual subs avoids directionality issues that would arise from using a single one given my choice above.

Eh?
If this isn't audiophile-speak for localization (issues), then you've lost me rw

cheers,

AJ

[theaudiohobby]

AJ

A product that combines the best attributes of the soundlabs and the Tannoys would be very interesting , which products fulfil that brief?

[E-Stat]

If this isn't audiophile-speak for localization (issues), then you've lost me rw

The perception of localization arises from a speaker's directional output. Get it?

rw

[theaudiohobby]

Sorry, but I was talking in the context of the home environment in which we use our speakers. My wife's baby grand piano sounds no differently up close or fifteen feet away. Either you have a far larger room than my 25'x16' one or you are talking about comparing row C vs. the loge in a symphony hall, in which case I would agree.

rw

I cannot speak for your home environment, but even in smaller spaces I experience tonal balance changes listening 15ft away and putting one's ear very close to the headboard and sure do not want to test your theory by putting my ear close to the mouth of a large horn , however I agree with the larger point that tonal changes will be less dramatic in smaller rooms due to the closer proximity of the room boundaries.

[AJinFLA]

AJ

A product that combines the best attributes of the soundlabs and the Tannoys would be very interesting

A dipolar large format coaxial.

which products fulfil that brief?

Nothing marketed to audiophiles. But that should never be an impediment to the determined



(sorry, I didn't take the pic)

cheers,

AJ

[AJinFLA]

rw, you said

Integration of satellites to dual subs avoids directionality issues that would arise from using a single one given my choice above.

How does dual subs "avoid directionality" vs a single one?

The perception of localization arises from a speaker's directional output. Get it? rw

No I don't. What directionality? You are clearly referring to the subwoofers. You said nothing about localization until the post above. What does subwoofer directionality have to do with localization?

cheers,

AJ

[E-Stat]

You are clearly referring to the subwoofers.

Yes. I actually agree with RBNG (imagine that!) that a single sub crossed over at 120 hz is quite easy to locate due to the directionality at that high a frequency.

rw

[AJinFLA]

No, you are misinformed. A 120 hz wavelength is nearly 9 1/2 feet long, far in excess of the piston source and baffle size. You sub will be purely omni-directional over it's (as implemented) passband. It's "directionality" has nothing to do with localization. HF (including motor generated harmonics) getting through above the sub (or receiver) low pass filter would make it localizable. In that perspective, it is advisable to have them close to the mains (like you have them).

cheers,

AJ

[E-Stat]

HF (including motor generated harmonics) getting through above the sub (or receiver) low pass filter would make it localizable. In that perspective, it is advisable to have them close to the mains (like you have them).

I'm glad you agree with my experience in the real world. Surely you understand the notion that a 12 db/octave crossover does not act like a brick wall filter for frequencies above the nominal setting. I found a single sub operating at that range was quite localizable.

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

rw

[JoeE SP9]

I'm glad you agree with my experience in the real world. Surely you understand the notion that a 12 db/octave crossover does not act like a brick wall filter for frequencies above the nominal setting. I found a single sub operating at that range was quite localizable.

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

rw

This has been my experience also. That's why I built 2 new subs. I have them placed on the wall almost directly behind my Stats which are 49 1/2" from the wall 8 1/2Ft apart and slightly toed in so the centers cross about 2Ft behind my head while in my chair.

When I use one sub I get a sensation of more depth and richer room sounds on whatever side of the room the sub is placed closest to. For most music it's not really noticable. However, some of my Audiophile/Demo quality recordings make it very evident. On Jacintha, Here's To Ben the soundstage width and depth seems to collapse on one side to the real size of my room. This only happens with one sub asymmetrically placed. The collapse occurs on the side away from the sub. If the sub is placed symmetrically I lose soundstage width on both sides (not so much as asym) and a small amount of depth.
With 2 subs the front wall and the first 1/3 of the side walls sonically disappear. Of course this extreme effect only occurs with a good recording. No multitracked recording I've ever heard has this kind of "large room around and behind the speakers"sound.

If someone out there has a multitracked recording they believe has the soundstage I'm describing I'll listen.

IMHO: A soundstage has height, width and depth. A good soundstage has the same properties but they extend beyond the physical dimensions of the room. A spread of instruments/sound from left to right is not a soundstage. It is nothing more than pan-potting a instrument/sound somewhere between left and right. We seem to forget stereo means 3-Dimensional! Technically, no depth means no stereo. That's why I call most studio recordings multi-track mono.

[theaudiohobby]

Thanks AJ

Could you tell us more about your prototype and some more pics please

[E-Stat]

Could you tell us more about your prototype and some more pics please

He really needs to update his website with pics of more current projects. You will find a number of OB "mutants" as he calls them.

AJ's Workshop

rw

[AJinFLA]

Thanks AJ

Could you tell us more about your prototype and some more pics please

It's just something I cobbled together one week, after work each day, to take to a diy event at a studio in Lexington Kentucky. Simulated, built and measured in about 12 hours. No listening (till I got there). Mainly so folks there could hear somthing different from the typical dome over cone boxes, panels, horns, etc. that most have heard. The coax is similar to your tannoy in design (although slightly modified [throat damping to reduce HOMs] ,by me). The tweeter is a BMS ring radiator. About 96db/2.83v, >200hz, 127db transient capacity per side. Open baffle for dipolar response, graduating to monopole at HF. Less power radiated into the room, nulls at the sidewalls and ceiling, directional HF and a symmetric polar response from the coax format. The bass section is active and can be switched from monopole (12" Peerless XLS), dipole (15" TC2+) or mixed, cardioid mode, depending on the room (that thing most speaker designers never seem to have heard of ). No pics other than that one taken by someone in the studio. It's a prototype (and ugly). Doesn't affect the soundwaves (though it would for audiophiles).
I actually brought them out of storage recently and plopped them at the new place. Here's a shot from about head position in the listening chair in cardioid mode (1/6oct and no doctoring ).
I'm running them in dipole mode right now. Probably take a few more in-room measurements this weekend. Or maybe I'll just listen to more tunes (just kidding, we know meter readers don't actually listen )
Oh yeah, I won't be hanging on to them for life. Just until the next evolution.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. You're right E-stat, I probably should do something with that site. But probably won't

[theaudiohobby]

AJ

You've whet my appetite, Your prototype literally combines attributes from dipoles and horn-loaded coaxials..yipee to my ears. How does third party (i.e. me) go about recreating your mutant. The potential dynamic capability of your creation is a boon to my ears, if not eyes , you gotta find a way making it look more attractive, black is so out What's the combined weight of the pair?