Speakers to hang on for life

[bboylesjc]

There are two designers who's speakers I particularly enjoy because they both make value speakers - performance for the buck. They are Roy Allison and Bud Fried. I own from Allison:

Allison AL 110 currently in my basement listening area.
Allison 125 currently stored. I haven't given them a chance. I am planning to put them in as main speakers with the AL 110s as surrounds.
Allison AV 6 surround package - center and surrounds working with the AL 110s. Surrounds will go into storage. Woofer module providing base to bookshelf speakers in my son's room.
RA Labs Reference 4A in my living room on bookshelves.
RA Labs Subwoofer - working with the AL110s

From Fried:

Beta Vs in my TV room on bookshelves.
A-6 with MARS technology in storage.

I enjoy all these in their own way. I don't have enough room to use them all at once, so I rotate them.

Intense listening in basement. Living room and TV room for background/second system.

[Deadeye]

In 1976 I bought a pair of Maggy MG-1's new. A couple of years later they were traded in on a pair of Acoustat 3's (old style). I sold them during a acrimonious divorce. I bought my present Spectra 22's a year or two later and haven't had any thoughts about replacing them in the 9+ years I've had them.
The only speakers I would consider using as replacements are other ESL's, Apogee's or Maggy's. After those MG-1's in 76 nothing in a box has ever sounded right.
It would seem to me that constantly changing speakers suggests one is making poor choices!

[nightflier]

It would seem to me that constantly changing speakers suggests one is making poor choices!

I'll plead guilty to that.

[GMichael]

I doubt that I'll ever replace the Strata Mini's I have now. With the planner tweeters and mids, they give me that sweet sound that I loved when I listened to a set of Maggy's. But with the conventional mid-woofers, and woofers (driven by built in amps) they give me the dynamics that I love for raw rock-n-roll. They are perfect for my needs. And they look good too.

[Mr Peabody]

There's a pair of Martin Logan ReQuests on Craigslist for $1,100.00. This would be a "no brainer" as it is a heck of a deal but I don't have the room to place them any where. My brain has been working this over time. I wish I hadn't seen them.

[Deadeye]

If you get a pair of Martin Logans you will make room because you won't need any other speakers.
Seriously, that sounds like a good deal. I presume they're in good or better condition. People that own nice gear usually take good care of it.
Don't go listen to them. They might getcha! They would love those MV60's

[thekid]

Interestingly enough since I now have so many speakers that my wife regularly threatens to kill me if one more pair shows up so this really could be a life or death question.....

If I had to chose from what I own it would be;

DCM TF-600's
Optimus 5's
Genesis 1's
EPI 100's
Dynaco A-25

The Genesis,EPI's and Dynaco's are all very similar in sound but there are slight differences depending on the music playing and are great for classical and accoustic music.

The Optimus 5's and TF-600's do not enjoy a audiophile reputation but are very good all around speakers.

[mlsstl]

Interesting about the Martin Logans; they've always left me a bit cold. I've never cared for the way they integrate the electrostatic panels with the woofer. That has always been their weak point for me, regardless of model. Just shows each of us has a slightly different set of priorities when it comes to evaluating equipment.

[nightflier]

Interesting about the Martin Logans; they've always left me a bit cold. I've never cared for the way they integrate the electrostatic panels with the woofer. That has always been their weak point for me, regardless of model. Just shows each of us has a slightly different set of priorities when it comes to evaluating equipment.

I've read on several occasions that the top-of-the-line models integrate the woofer better. Of course, I haven't really heard their better speakers, so I don't know. But for those of you that have, do the ML's get better up there? Also, don't they have models that are just electrostatic (no woofers)?

[E-Stat]

I've never cared for the way they integrate the electrostatic panels with the woofer. That has always been their weak point for me, regardless of model.

Indeed, it is a real challenge to mate a monopole woofer with dipolar uppers. I also prefer full range stats as opposed to stats that run full range - having separate woofer / tweeter sections.

rw

[E-Stat]

Also, don't they have models that are just electrostatic (no woofers)?

They have reintroduced a new version of the CLS called the CLX. While there are no dynamic woofers, it has separate electrostatic woofer and mid/tweeter sections.

rw

[JoeE SP9]

Right now the only ML's without a sub are the CLX's. A bit pricy to me. Yes, to my ears they do get better up there. The integration of sub to ESL is better now than it used to be. All speakers that use a sub (internal or external) have the same problem to varying degrees. It's just more noticable on an ESL.
After the crossover from the sub there are no more crossovers to provide an discontinuity to the sound. So you get smooth seamless sound that nothing else can give. That smoothness makes the crossover from the sub much more noticable.
I suspect that freedom from crossover induced distortions is a major reason why ESL lovers generally stick with them.

[JoeE SP9]

Interestingly enough since I now have so many speakers that my wife regularly threatens to kill me if one more pair shows up so this really could be a life or death question.....

If I had to chose from what I own it would be;

DCM TF-600's
Optimus 5's
Genesis 1's
EPI 100's
Dynaco A-25

The Genesis,EPI's and Dynaco's are all very similar in sound but there are slight differences depending on the music playing and are great for classical and accoustic music.

The Optimus 5's and TF-600's do not enjoy a audiophile reputation but are very good all around speakers.

The system I put together for my mother has a pair of EPI 100's. I bought several boxes of mortite and lined the insides of the cabinets and the back of the (none on the magnets) metal speaker baskets with it. I also put some real binding posts on. They now sound considerably better than stock. It's a very cheap upgrade. I started to put some real crossovers in but she didn't want to go without music for that long.

[Mr Peabody]

The ML's do integrate the woofers better today than they have in the past. I don't like them with certain electronics, like Krell, for instance. What really draws me in to them is being matched with good tube gear. Tubes with the ESL is magic. With that type of presence any flaw is just secondary. I do listen to a wide variety of music though and doubt if they'd suffice as my main speakers. If I had the room, a pair of Requests for a grand, I'd grab them just for the occasional enjoyment.

I get my ML models mixed up, their flagship with the powered woofer is actually quite good and I wonder if, you, could hear any gap or hump. I heard them with an all T+A system and it was very good, no noticeable irregularity did I hear.

ML is also using more complex enclosure design for the woofers and most if not all the cones are aluminum.

[mlsstl]

That raises an interesting question - how many "second chances" do you give a line of speakers (or any product for that matter) when multiple experiences over a number of years have yielded similar results?

Every good salesman is going to tell you that they "fixed that" (whatever your complaint happened to be) in the current model. That happens sometimes, but it sure isn't a given in my experience.

I do want to clarify that Martin Logans are not in the "refuse to listen" category for me. I find them quite interesting in many ways but they've always had a lack of congruity in the lower midrange that I find quite noticeable. I think it depends on the person. Think of a horn lover who listens to a speaker that doesn't have quite the dynamics of his beloved horns. That is going to stand out as a deficiency more to him than someone else who isn't quite as sensitive to that characteristic.

Back to my comment above, with ML I'll gladly listen to a new model if I just happen to be somewhere but they've already had too many bites at the apple for me to seek them out for an audition.

[Mr Peabody]

Good points. Especially, where different people might tend to focus or tolerate different characteristics of a speaker. The Requests are guilty as you charged but mmost of the models after that generation have improved. If one just don't like the mix of the two technologies though it's doubtful they'd ever be your cup of tea.

It's also true that speaker manufacturers may change/improve, or not, on their product, but their basic approach usually stays the same, Klipsch still uses horns, Thiel still uses passive radiators, ML still mixes dynamic with ESP etc.

[Florian]

I tend to keep my hybrid ^^ Not everyone can afford a fullrange ESL ya know .....

[jvc]

Speakers to hang on for life
To me, that would be any Allison speakers you can get your hands on. I have a pair of AL-115 speakers, but they need to be refoamed, so they aren't being used at the moment. Hopefully will be refoaming them soon, so I can use them again. They've been used almost every day for 15 years. These are speakers I will never get rid of............

[JoeE SP9]

Another good thing about ESL's, no re-coning no replacing foam surrounds!

[E-Stat]

Tubes with the ESL is magic.

Absolutely. I find they match well.

I get my ML models mixed up, their flagship with the powered woofer is actually quite good and I wonder if, you, could hear any gap or hump.

The issue for a stat freak like me is not gaps or humps in the response (although dipoles are somewhat easier to get linear response at the bottom). For that matter, there are quite a few exceptionally linear dynamic systems available today. It is the reduced coherency due to the low frequencies having a different radiation pattern and transient response from the rest. The Bass. Everything Else. If you recall both the first (CLS) and last models (CLX) were / are full range designs. I remember the CLS quite well having heard them back in late 70s IIRC. JWC of TAS bought a pair to replace his Daytons.

rw

[E-Stat]

I tend to keep my hybrid ^^ ...

It would have been interesting if Apogee had used separate ribbon bass towers in the Grand to supplement the bottom octave maintaining consistent dipolar response. Sound Lab makes the UB-1 electrostatic subwoofer for those who wish to extend the 25 hz response of the standard models. They are optimized for first octave response having double diaphragms like the woofer panels in the M-L CLX.

rw

[JoeE SP9]

At one time I had a pair of Acoustat 3's. In the room they were in bass response was so good I never thought about adding a sub. The low frequency at the beginning of Zarathustra was easily heard and felt. Unfortunately the next room I put them in never produced decent bass from them no matter what I did.
E-Stat has it right about different dispersion characteristics (Di-Polar vs. Cone) causing a discontinuity in the sound. I've always missed that coherence when using a sub but I've got to have my "earthquake" sounds.
The new subs I built (transmission line from Pass Labs DIY site) seem to do better in this area. I wonder if it's because of the way speakers are mounted. They are at the bottom of tubes sitting on spiked 12"x12"x1" granite slabs. The back of the magnets rest directly on the slabs with some Blu-Tack to couple them. They are crossed over at 75Hz..
There is no enclosure around any part of the speakers. The tubes are mounted on 1/2" thick coupling rings that slide into the tubes 1/2". They are glued to the rings with epoxy. The speakers are bolted directly to the rings. That's the whole thing except for some polyfil stuffing! I don't have any children or pets so knocking them over is not an issue. When I get around to covering them maybe I'll use some drapery tie-backs to ensure against falling.
Anyone who is a DIY'r should look into this design. They play loud go deep (18Hz with Eq) and are clean. They are also inexpensive and incredibly easy to build.

[Mr Peabody]

At the time I was seriously looking for main speakers one of the things that was hard to get used to with ML's is the lack of that physical sensation you get from a box speaker. That does make sense the different disspersion patterns.

How long are the tubes/lines from the funnel the speaker sits on? Transmission Line is supposed to be a very effective technique. In fact, Bose has exploited it very well. My favorite if the power is available is still the sealed enclosure.

[nightflier]

Joe, I have a hard time picturing those. What do yours look like?

[Florian]

Well, the bass panel alone when run fullrange can do 18,5hz. It has enough power, no question. I personally prefer the subwoofers in the Grand. More accurate in my opinion, and with enough power to do over 120db... those electrostats wonnt do this, most likely.

The Fullrange Apogee does 23Hz... its not a technical problem but a design choice.

Cheers