Side-grading from B&W N805, need advice!

[koven]

Yes, I think that is what he is refering to. He's been recently review some gear by PS audio (multiway sockets, power cords etc).
Personally I'm a little sceptical about the benefits of this type of accessory.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this shoot out & i'm definitely keeping Fritz's name as a future reference. Oh, and Scan-Speak is now high on my list of speakers to audition.

Yeah, scan-speak drivers definitely need to be heard, they are really amazing... many people compare them with SEAS and I, for one, prefer the warmer sound of the scan speaks... to me, SEAS drivers sound a bit brighter/more forward.. but both are very detailed and smooth with great bass response. The scan speak drivers w/ series crossover in the carbon 7's have incredible synergy.. you cannot pin point where the sound is coming from, the two drivers blend together incredibly well. i'm sure this contributes to it's massive soundstage/imaging depth and life-like/natural presentation.

And I'm also a bit skeptical about accessories like power conditioners, cable isolators, etc etc. Honestly, I'd like to give it a shot but I doubt my system is high-end enough to benefit (if there is even a benefit) from it.

[02audionoob]

hmm then it's not ok, i'd like to understand your point so please elaborate.

please keep in mind that the discussion on proac's came AFTER i called to tell him i'm keeping the carbon 7's. thus if you're implying that fritz had any influence on my choice to keep the carbon 7's over the proac's, i'd have to say you're wrong. i did hours and hours of a/b listening between the two and my ears are what made the final decision.

however, if you're merely implying it was unprofessional for fritz to even bring up the 'D' series, i do understand you're point now, but i still disagree. i'm the one that asked for his opinion on proac's in the first place. it had no influence on my decision. i dont see it as a big deal nor am i going to jump to any conclusions. fritz' service and ethics have been superb throughout my "journey", do you believe i should toss it all away based on one negative comment about the "competitor"? i just want to know what you're getting at.

I think it's important to clarify that I believe you made your choice with your own ears. I simply believe that if a manufacturer made a statement about his competitor's product that was as you wrote it, it was unprofessional. He questioned his competitor's motives and quality and you repeated it on the internet. It could very well be that ProAc made their decision on the drivers with their ears, too...just as you did.

Also...keep in mind...a small manufacturer makes a profit, just like a big manufacturer. Do you have any way of knowing which one has the bigger margin? I don't.

[atomicAdam]

Yes, I think that is what he is refering to. He's been recently review some gear by PS audio (multiway sockets, power cords etc).
Personally I'm a little sceptical about the benefits of this type of accessory.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this shoot out & i'm definitely keeping Fritz's name as a future reference. Oh, and Scan-Speak is now high on my list of speakers to audition.

aa - it isn't that i've been just auditioning the PSAudio stuff, I've been listening to every power cord I could get my hands on or hear at a demo.

So far the list.

Nordost Odin - Twice, once at AudioVision in SF and once at a BAAS event. The group over whelming heard the difference.

Granite Audio #560 - I've had a two of these at my place for the past couple months. The difference between these and a standard power cord, at least in my old apartment and new house is, well, incredible. On the JRDG 102 S, on the KingRex HQ1, and on the PSAudio Quintent running the AVA gear.

PSAudio PerfectWave AC3 & AC5 - still listening to them, but the improvement over standard power cords in my home is noticeable.

Now, said time and time again, I wont argue the benefits of a clean power to anyone. You have to hear for yourself, and you have to know the condition of the power out of your wall. For me it has, from what I've heard in several demos and at my own home, tamed irritating and fatiguing highs, extended the low end, widened the soundstage, giving better dynamics, and increased detail.

Of course, if you already have perfect power out of your walls than great. But as the saying goes, junk in = junk out. I for one, believe that applies to power as equally as source.

But, on that note.

I was just making an observation from the photos. With all that $$$ worth of speakers in the room, it just peaked my curiosity to know if the condition of the power was taken into consideration.

[koven]

I think it's important to clarify that I believe you made your choice with your own ears. I simply believe that if a manufacturer made a statement about his competitor's product that was as you wrote it, it was unprofessional. He questioned his competitor's motives and quality and you repeated it on the internet. It could very well be that ProAc made their decision on the drivers with their ears, too...just as you did.

Also...keep in mind...a small manufacturer makes a profit, just like a big manufacturer. Do you have any way of knowing which one has the bigger margin? I don't.

okay, now i see your point and i understand/partially agree. however, it is insignificant & irrelevant to the bigger picture here. it's just something that came up in discussion, his motive was not to sway me into keeping the carbon 7's.

and sure, proac could have made a decision based on their ears.. but we'll never know. however, the educated assumption would be that they did not.. they changed management and the new attitude at proac was profit, not sound. also, i dont see what's wrong with repeating facts on the internet. although damaging to proac, i'm sure there are people out there who would prefer to know.

yes, everyone makes a profit, i'm sure fritz will make money off me. but will it be as big a margain as a large manufacturer? i would bet all my money that in terms of %, it's not. fritz isn't even a "small manufacturer", it's ONE person building speakers to order. he has little to no overhead costs, he loves speakers and music, he loves his job. sure he makes a profit, but for fritz, it's sound and value that takes priority. and it's extremely evident in his work. i highly doubt that big manufacturers have the same attitude.


also, i just realized you own proac's (possibly the 'D' series?). at first, i was a bit confused about your stand in this matter, and no offense, but now i see why you're biased/defensive on this subject. so let's just end it here.

[koven]

hi adam, two questions:

how would i know/test if the power of out my walls is "perfect" or not?

what would you recommend as a good starting point? should i go w/ aftermarket power cables first? or should i get a power line conditioner? or is it an all or nothing type of thing?

although i'm skeptical, i'm also curious. thanks in advance for any advice

[Mr Peabody]

Not so unprofessional if it's true.

Koven I was about to take those Proacs off your hands until you spilled the beans they have cheaper drivers

[koven]

Not so unprofessional if it's true.

Koven I was about to take those Proacs off your hands until you spilled the beans they have cheaper drivers

Exactly my thoughts, and after dealing w/ Fritz, I'm confident that he's not the type of person that would fabricate a story like that for his own benefit. Technically, although he's a one man operation, he's still considered to be in the "industry" so I'm not surprised he knows these types of details.

As for your second comment, that's the thing, he wasn't even talking about my Response 1.5's. He said the R1.5's are the ones that use quality drivers (custom SEAS). He was referring to the updated 'D' series, that's where the change happened.

Also, I'm sure you were just joking, but for what it's worth, there's plenty of locals interested and will be coming by to take a look

[Mr Peabody]

Ah, the ole better not wait someone is coming to look later routine

Personally, I'd recommend experimenting with power cords first. Not to go into my whole story, I brought home both power cords and an outlet gizmo thinking the cord wouldn't do anything and I'd probably keep the outlet gizmo. Actually, the opposite ended up being true. Only true though because the outlet gizmo, an early gen Transparent, didn't allow enough current through for my big daddy Krell. The power cords did some amazing things for my CD player and especially my phono stage. Later I picked up a Quintet because it had outlets with no current limit and the effect was more subtle but still a further improvement. I'm not happy with PS Audio right now, well, not that strongly, they gave me a RMA# with no problem but my Quintet has a couple outlets that went bad. How something like that happens is a mystery. I will be happy to get it back though because when I took it out the picture quality on my TV was noticeably not as good. With out it the dark sceen detail isn't as good and the color less vivid. I mean it's not huge but if it's your set you are used to watching you should notice.

[koven]

Oh I know that routine, that wasn't my intention though, lol. What I meant was, whether you were serious or not, local pick-up has priority. And judging by the local interest so far, you shouldn't hold your breath for shipping

And thanks for the advice, I will look into some power cords when this is all said and done.

[atomicAdam]

koven -

Well, perfect I guess isn't the word, more like, what will give my equipment the best possible starting point.

Besides, I'm not going to argue what perfect power is cause I'm no electrical engineer or even an electrician for that matter.

A good starting place would be price. From there, read reviews. Sorry to sound vague. One thing I could suggest, is if you are only going to spend money for one cable, plug it into your amp. At least, that has seemed to always make the biggest difference to me.

I've been reviewing the JRDG 102 S amp (~$2000) and with a Granite Audio #560 ($850) power cord into it and standard power cords into a cheapy ($30) surge protector, it made a greater difference than having the #560 plugged into the pre-amp or CD player or DAC with other things running cheaper power cords.

I'd almost want to say, for example only, if you have a grand, and are thinking, two power cords for $500, it might be better to get at least 1 fantastic one for a grand, and plug that into the amp, instead of 2 $500 ones into amp and pre-amp.

It seems like you worked wonders in getting a selection of speakers to audition, I would just start doing the same with power cords. But see if you can get ones that are already broken in for audition.

That would be my best, but obviously limited to my experiences, advice.

[jrhymeammo]

I have heard many good things about the Madisound Revelator and have given thought to it as well when I get ready for an upgrade. From what I have heard they are some of the best drviers Scan Speak makes and when put together with a top notch crossover and cabinet they are a unstoppable force. I heard people compare them to speakers system in the close to 5 figure mark with good results and Madisound sells the 2 way kit for around 1500 and 2.5 kit for around 2000 dollars. Not bad if you consider price and the floore space the Revelator speakers take up.

Hey HG,
Are you talking about the Zaph Audio ZRT 2.5-Way offered by Madisound?
It looks very tempting since I've curious about the new(er) AirCirc tweeters.

[koven]

adam --

thanks for the advice. unfortunately i wont be able to afford any super expensive power cords.. i was thinking something more in the ~$100 range, just like a step up from the generic cords. and maybe a ~$100 conditioner/surge protector too. any brands you may recommend in that case?

i see zu birth cables go for about ~$40 on ebay... also the bok for ~$100, any thoughts on zu?

[jrhymeammo]

So what tweeters does the new D line use?
The Scanspeak Discovery series based tweeters?
Looks like D80 and up uses the D2904 based tweeters, but I'm not sure.

Something just doesn't add up about Fritz, and not sure what it is. But sounds like you found a pair you like.Enjoy.
Too many uncertainties..... better flip the LP.

[02audionoob]

okay, now i see your point and i understand/partially agree. however, it is insignificant & irrelevant to the bigger picture here. it's just something that came up in discussion, his motive was not to sway me into keeping the carbon 7's.

and sure, proac could have made a decision based on their ears.. but we'll never know. however, the educated assumption would be that they did not.. they changed management and the new attitude at proac was profit, not sound. also, i dont see what's wrong with repeating facts on the internet. although damaging to proac, i'm sure there are people out there who would prefer to know.

yes, everyone makes a profit, i'm sure fritz will make money off me. but will it be as big a margain as a large manufacturer? i would bet all my money that in terms of %, it's not. fritz isn't even a "small manufacturer", it's ONE person building speakers to order. he has little to no overhead costs, he loves speakers and music, he loves his job. sure he makes a profit, but for fritz, it's sound and value that takes priority. and it's extremely evident in his work. i highly doubt that big manufacturers have the same attitude.


also, i just realized you own proac's (possibly the 'D' series?). at first, i was a bit confused about your stand in this matter, and no offense, but now i see why you're biased/defensive on this subject. so let's just end it here.

No...I don't have the D series. I have the TriTowers. I don't think you are entitled to call me biased/defensive on the issue. I just said what I judge to be true about one person's comments, regardless of subject matter. I believe it's unprofessional and I believe you're gullible. What you've said..and called "fact" is only what Fritz told you...a guy who is selling you speakers...a guy who besides building speakers sells them.

And by the way...what you'd bet on the profit margin doesn't say anything about reality. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you could at least provide a fact instead of "betting". Then there wouldn't be so much left open to doubt.

And lastly...I think your Audiogon ad is dishonest. Not funny. There's a recession on. There are people with real problems.

[Mr Peabody]

Koven, I'd wait on power conditioner for your amp. You want one that does not limit current. Many entry level conditioners don't have the capacity to feed a large or high quality amp. You can find decent entry level power cords in the $100.00 to $200.00 range. I'd also buy either from a local or online retailer with a return policy. Ebay sellers, if you can call them that, are notorious for the occasional counterfit cable. I didn't realize you were buying all those speakers. You should make use of the return policies available. Usually cable companies give dealers a demo kit so they can loan them out to customers to try. I know my local dealer pretty well, they just through me the cord to try.

When I first tried aftermarket cables I was using a Krell amp and they may have had a decent cable already. When rotating the power in and out of my system the amp was more subtle than the CDP or phono stage which the improvement I would consider sizeable. Of course, I wasn't using a Granite either. So how many of those $1k babies you buying Adam?

[harley .guy07]

Hey HG,
Are you talking about the Zaph Audio ZRT 2.5-Way offered by Madisound?
It looks very tempting since I've curious about the new(er) AirCirc tweeters.

Yes I am. The 2.5 Zaph audio design is a sealed chamber design that I for one am very interested in hearing for myself. The price is good for the amount of quality there and from what I have read from owners of these speakers is that they are comparable to some speakers close to the 5 figure mark for around 2000 bucks. Thats saying something and while I was not there to hear a comparison like this for myself and it is a bold claim but hell if these speakers can keep up with speakers in the 5 to 6 thousand dollar range then buying them and putting them together yourself would be well worth it and they could be something I would keep and listen to for years. One of them speakers to keep for a long time and enjoy knowing you got way more for the money than most.

[koven]

So what tweeters does the new D line use?
The Scanspeak Discovery series based tweeters?
Looks like D80 and up uses the D2904 based tweeters, but I'm not sure.

see below, regarding your question, these are just two quotes from soundstage.com talking about the new proac d series

All previous Response-series speakers used silk-dome tweeters sourced from Scan-Speak and modified by ProAc. No more. The tweeter used currently, still a silk-dome unit, is sourced from D.S.T. of Denmark

But with the D100 and D80, ProAc began an affiliation with Volt, a pro company based in England. ProAc used a modified version of a Volt woofer in the D100 and D80

No...I don't have the D series. I have the TriTowers. I don't think you are entitled to call me biased/defensive on the issue. I just said what I judge to be true about one person's comments, regardless of subject matter. I believe it's unprofessional and I believe you're gullible. What you've said..and called "fact" is only what Fritz told you...a guy who is selling you speakers...a guy who besides building speakers sells them.

And by the way...what you'd bet on the profit margin doesn't say anything about reality. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you could at least provide a fact instead of "betting". Then there wouldn't be so much left open to doubt.

And lastly...I think your Audiogon ad is dishonest. Not funny. There's a recession on. There are people with real problems.

wow, sorry i struck a nerve. i didn't think you would take this so seriously. you picked a detail in my post that was insignificant & irrelevant, and made it into a huge deal. it had little to do with what i was talking about.

first of all, i'm not "entitled" to call you biased but you can call me gullible (and dishonest)? i dont get it.. i guess your opinion is worth more than mine

second, earlier in this thread, you said "I like your thinking....but that's coming from a guy who has ProAc towers and an Audio Research tube amp." to me that looks like, "good choice, but im biased"... your attitude towards me made a 180-degree turn after i made my comment. what happened? i thought we were going to be "proac buddies"

i dont think you're giving me enough credit. i've done my share of research. i look into everything fritz tells me, i dont hang off his every last word. contrary to your belief, when he says jump, I........ "Google" the what/when/where/how of jumping. i think you get my point. proac did ditch scan speak drivers in their new 'D' series, that's a fact. however, whether or not it's costing proac less money than the scanspeaks, only the people at proac know the answer.

sorry if you took it the wrong way but my comment's motive was NOT out of malice. i didn't even think much about it, this is an audioreview forum.. i just thought the more info, the better. i'm not some undercover Fritz salesman on a mission to put down all other brands, i'm just an average(probably below average in terms of $) "audiophile". i came here to share/document my experience and hopefully learn things on the way. i'm sure there's some people reading this and did not know Proac switched to Volt drivers in their new 'D' series. i've read it's more of a british sound and some PMC speakers also use Volt drivers, not as warm as scan speak but probably great nonetheless - warm is a preference afterall.

also, unless you've personally dealt with Fritz, you don't have the right to judge his professionalism. if anything, i'm the unprofessional one for paraphrasing him on the internet. i've met a lot of salesmen in this world, and most of them aren't the epitome of ethics, if you know what i mean. while fritz may not be perfect.. overall, i'd consider him a diamond in the rough.

as for my audiogon ad, you make it seem like i fabricated a sob story to sell the speakers. i said "i have financial issues and need to free up cash". in any case, i dont see how that's relevant to anything, you seem to be attacking me for the hell of it. all i have to say is, you know nothing about me, or my life (and there's no reason to share it here), all you've got are assumptions. you see a room full of speakers and you think i have a tree that grows money.

anyway, in retrospect, if i knew you were going to react this way (and for the sake of this thread), i wouldn't have even brought it up... i didnt come here to start arguments... maybe a moderator can "edit out" all this negative talk

[koven]

Koven, I'd wait on power conditioner for your amp. You want one that does not limit current. Many entry level conditioners don't have the capacity to feed a large or high quality amp. You can find decent entry level power cords in the $100.00 to $200.00 range. I'd also buy either from a local or online retailer with a return policy. Ebay sellers, if you can call them that, are notorious for the occasional counterfit cable. I didn't realize you were buying all those speakers. You should make use of the return policies available. Usually cable companies give dealers a demo kit so they can loan them out to customers to try. I know my local dealer pretty well, they just through me the cord to try.

When I first tried aftermarket cables I was using a Krell amp and they may have had a decent cable already. When rotating the power in and out of my system the amp was more subtle than the CDP or phono stage which the improvement I would consider sizeable. Of course, I wasn't using a Granite either. So how many of those $1k babies you buying Adam?

definitely will do that, i know most places are more generous with in-home cable demos as opposed to taking some expensive speakers home.

any recommendations as far as brand? the zu cables on ebay are actually auctions from zu audio, so i was thinking about giving it a shot with their 60-day return policy. just want to know what else i should look into, there's so many choices.

[02audionoob]

anyway, in retrospect, if i knew you were going to react this way (and for the sake of this thread), i wouldn't have even brought it up... i didnt come here to start arguments... maybe a moderator can "edit out" all this negative talk

I'm letting it go at that, even if the mods leave it in. Enjoy your speakers. They seem great. No hard feelings on my part. It would all seem less significant if said over a beer rather than in writing.

[Mr Peabody]

I have aftermarket power cords from Transparent and MIT's Z series and both work well for me. I hear good things about Zu. All I currently have of theirs is a coaxial digital cable. www.amusicdirect.com carry PS Audio and offer a return policy. A large part of PS Audio is their power products and could be worth trying. Other than that if you find something good let me know.

[audio amateur]

aa - it isn't that i've been just auditioning the PSAudio stuff, I've been listening to every power cord I could get my hands on or hear at a demo.

In the context of Koven's confusion, it was just giving him the gist. I don't doubt that you have auditionned power cords other than PS audio's...

Keeping on topic, I haven't done any A/B with aftermarket power cords and I probably won't for a while simply because they are out of my budget and also because any difference in sound will probably be far lesser than upgrading speakers. I once switched my Rat shack interconnects for a pair which retailed at 150$, and I couldn't hear any change. Could be my ears, could be the lack of resolution of my system, but it could also be that they actually didn't improve anything. If they did, I believe the difference was so small that any Placebo effect would be far greater. Personnally I have no doubt that a LOT of differences heard in the audiophile comunity are that created by Placebo.

ps: any news from the Trends Audio guy?

[poppachubby]

In the context of Koven's confusion, it was just giving him the gist. I don't doubt that you have auditionned power cords other than PS audio's...

Keeping on topic, I haven't done any A/B with aftermarket power cords and I probably won't for a while simply because they are out of my budget and also because any difference in sound will probably be far lesser than upgrading speakers. I once switched my Rat shack interconnects for a pair which retailed at 150$, and I couldn't hear any change. Could be my ears, could be the lack of resolution of my system, but it could also be that they actually didn't improve anything. If they did, I believe the difference was so small that any Placebo effect would be far greater. Personnally I have no doubt that a LOT of differences heard in the audiophile comunity are that created by Placebo.

ps: any news from the Trends Audio guy?

Indeed. I think that the gear has to be of a certain ilk. Low end gear is just that, no matter what you attach to it.

You're right about placebo. I think the biggest problem is simply pride. No one who just spent $200 on a power cord wants to admit there's no audible or likely benefit.

I think if a person optimizes everything in their system, be it "mid-fi" or hi-fi, small changes become easier to detect. You can't expect to hear small differences from a power cord when it's sucking a heap of garbage from the wall, which the user did nothing to improve.

Anyhow, bottom line is, if you're happy with what you have, great!!

[audio amateur]

And by the way...what you'd bet on the profit margin doesn't say anything about reality. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you could at least provide a fact instead of "betting". Then there wouldn't be so much left open to doubt.

I'm not sure what's the big problem is, but here is a fact: Scan Speak drivers in general (and those in the Carbon 7's more so), are expensive. Take into account they are mated to a quality crossover and are housed into what appears to be a gorgeous cabinet. Surely at 1.7K, they are a bargain! I'll bet you anything that he makes far less profit on what he sells than 99% of speaker manufacturers.

[02audionoob]

I'm not sure what's the big problem is, but here is a fact: Scan Speak drivers in general (and those in the Carbon 7's more so), are expensive. Take into account they are mated to a quality crossover and are housed into what appears to be a gorgeous cabinet. Surely at 1.7K, they are a bargain! I'll bet you anything that he makes far less profit on what he sells than 99% of speaker manufacturers.

What's the point in "betting"? A one-man manufacturer/direct merchant has no middle man and super low overhead. I would "bet" he has a very nice profit margin. There is no problem, though. I already tried to drop it in my previous reply.

[Feanor]

I'm not sure what's the big problem is, but here is a fact: Scan Speak drivers in general (and those in the Carbon 7's more so), are expensive. Take into account they are mated to a quality crossover and are housed into what appears to be a gorgeous cabinet. Surely at 1.7K, they are a bargain! I'll bet you anything that he makes far less profit on what he sells than 99% of speaker manufacturers.

Indeed, some ScanSpeak are very expensive, e.g. THIS Beryllium-dome D3004/6640-00 "Illuminator" series tweeter.

Although a few are rather moderate, e.g. THIS silk-domed D2606/9200 "Discovery" series tweeter.