Riddle me this, riddle me that....ok now can someone try to explain that?

[Geoffcin]

Ok Why is the Paradigm Signature Servo $3200 American, and the Servo 15 is only like $1500 American? Did I miss something? The specs are almost identicle! WHY!!!??? Ok there must be some reason. Or, is this just another marketing ploy from Paradigm to get another couple hundred bucks out of people by slapping a different label on it? Ok I'm pretty confused can someone help me here?

Usually the engineers are working with "cost no object" for components. The people who buy signature/statement products like the Signature Servo know that they are buying only incrementally better performance, but are willing to pay for the best.

Signature products are worth every penny, to those who buy them. For everyone else they are good too; as the tech that is developed making them is often filtered down to other more affordable products.

[Feanor]

... The people who buy signature/statement products like the Signature Servo know that they are buying only incrementally better performance, but are willing to pay for the best.

Signature products are worth every penny, to those who buy them. ...

A product that has to be sold to everybody for the same price is called a "commodity". No producer or vendor wants their product to be a commodity: they want to sell it for more to the people who are willing to pay more.

Of course, if the product is obviously identical the maker can't ask the rich buyer for more -- they aren't that stupid. So he enhances the product in various, often trivial ways that cost him much less than the increase in mark-up he hopes for. This way his rich buyer can feel he's getting more and will pay more -- never mind that the actual improvement is slight or nil.

[Geoffcin]

A product that has to be sold to everybody for the same price is called a "commodity". No producer or vendor wants their product to be a commodity: they want to sell it for more to the people who are willing to pay more.

Of course, if the product is obviously identical the maker can't ask the rich buyer for more -- they aren't that stupid. So he enhances the product in various, often trivial ways that cost him much less than the increase in mark-up he hopes for. This way his rich buyer can feel he's getting more and will pay more -- never mind that the actual improvement is slight or nil.

That's a rather crass opinion of Paradigm, and audio manufacturers in general. I don't own Paradigm speakers, but I respect Paradigm as a company. I'm sure that a lot of engineering went into the Signature Servo. Statement products like this represent the absolute best that a company can produce.

I'll agree with you on one point; People who are willing to pay more are not stupid. On the contrary, the audiophiles that I know are some of the most discerning people on earth. From the olive oil on their salads, to the quality of their carpeting, a lot of them NEVER settle for second best. Most of them are very successful businessmen, and I would dare say that NOBODY could pull the wool over their respective eyes with a simple trivial change. That being said, when you get to the level of the Servo 15, there's only just an incremental advancement possible. Statement buyers understand this, and are willing to purchase with eyes, and ears wide open.

[bacchanal]

A product that has to be sold to everybody for the same price is called a "commodity". No producer or vendor wants their product to be a commodity: they want to sell it for more to the people who are willing to pay more.

Of course, if the product is obviously identical the maker can't ask the rich buyer for more -- they aren't that stupid. So he enhances the product in various, often trivial ways that cost him much less than the increase in mark-up he hopes for. This way his rich buyer can feel he's getting more and will pay more -- never mind that the actual improvement is slight or nil.

You're forgetting form over function. Even if the Signiture series is only a trivial increase in sound quality (I don't know since I haven't listened to them), they still have significant aesthetic improvements. People with money often are willing to pay real money for aesthetics. It may seem trivial to you (for the price), but if you're loaded and your spoilt wife just can't stand the thought of veneer...which speaker are you going to go for

[bacchanal]

Usually the engineers are working with "cost no object" for components.

Engineers very very rarely work without a cost (profitability) parameter. If this ever happens it is usually early in the design stage, and certain aspects of the design are not necessarily intended for production.
Engineers are trained to maximize profitability just like everyone else in the world.

[Geoffcin]

Engineers very very rarely work without a cost (profitability) parameter. If this ever happens it is usually early in the design stage, and certain aspects of the design are not necessarily intended for production.
Engineers are trained to maximize profitability just like everyone else in the world.

But there's much more freedom on the statment products, as the buyer is willing to pay the extra costs. Of course Paradigm is making even greater profit on the Signature Servo than the Servo 15 too, but the buyers also undertstand this.

[bacchanal]

But there's much more freedom on the statment products, as the buyer is willing to pay the extra costs. Of course Paradigm is making even greater profit on the Signature Servo than the Servo 15 too, but the buyers also undertstand this.

If there is so much more freedom, I doubt the signatrue series would look just like the studio series and re-use many similar/same/redesigned components. Engineers are creative people who like to design things.

I guess it's all relative

[Geoffcin]

If there is so much more freedom, I doubt the signatrue series would look just like the studio series and re-use many similar/same/redesigned components. Engineers are creative people who like to design things.

I guess it's all relative

On what they are willing to go with. I'm not privy to Paradigms business model.

After reading a post by Woochifer though, it seems that by reading the timeline that the Sig Series might have had tech developed for it that was so good they decided to incorperate it into thier other models before the Sig went to market. I would praise Paradigm for this, as it looks like they came up with some winning tech and rushed into the more affordable line. Either way it looks like these subs are pushing the bar ever higher. That's good for all of us.

[bacchanal]

On what they are willing to go with. I'm not privy to Paradigms business model.

After reading a post by Woochifer though, it seems that by reading the timeline that the Sig Series might have had tech developed for it that was so good they decided to incorperate it into thier other models before the Sig went to market. I would praise Paradigm for this, as it looks like they came up with some winning tech and rushed into the more affordable line. Either way it looks like these subs are pushing the bar ever higher. That's good for all of us.

Wait a sec. Paradigm revises and makes slight improvements upon the studio line, puts it in fancier cabinets to make the signature line at double the price. Some of this revised tech (redesigned sub driver) ends up in the studio line at a premium price, because few people wanted to put up the inflated prices of the signature line (sig servo).

I think wooch made the point that the sig series are basically hyped up studio revisions...not to be confused with a new line pushing the envelope and bringing new technology to a price point where it didn't previously exist.

Certainly the signature series pushes the performance envelope of the paradigm cataloge, but it hasn't helped the price/performance ratio for paradigm or for the studio series specifically.

It seems that they were basically trying to expand their product line to a higher end (dollar wise) market they had not yet tapped into. This seems to have been more of a marketing driven goal than an engineering/performance driven one.

If you aren't aware I own some studio40 v.2's that I really like. Am I biased, sure. But, from my point of view the paradigm studio series is very competitive in it's price range against many other manufacturers. When you get into the signature series price range, there are a many other alternatives to paradigm that deserve consideration.

[Woochifer]

Wait a sec. Paradigm revises and makes slight improvements upon the studio line, puts it in fancier cabinets to make the signature line at double the price. Some of this revised tech (redesigned sub driver) ends up in the studio line at a premium price, because few people wanted to put up the inflated prices of the signature line (sig servo).

I think wooch made the point that the sig series are basically hyped up studio revisions...not to be confused with a new line pushing the envelope and bringing new technology to a price point where it didn't previously exist.

Certainly the signature series pushes the performance envelope of the paradigm cataloge, but it hasn't helped the price/performance ratio for paradigm or for the studio series specifically.

I'm not altogether sure what followed what -- basic chicken and egg question. The Signature series makes some very substantive changes from the Studio v.2 (changes to the driver design, driver size, crossover frequency, port location, binding posts, cabinetry, etc.), and the prototypes for the Sigs were revealed about a year before the Studio v.3 series was announced. When the pictues of the Signatures made their way around, I remember the reaction was generally that Paradigm looked like they were going upscale, and a step up from the existing Studio series. Once the Studio v.3 series came out, people remarked how different they looked from the v.2 series AND how similar they looked to the Signatures.

In my assessment of the Signature S2, I didn't feel that the speakers represented enough of an improvement over the Studio 20 v.3 for its $2k list price. But, for me it says more for how great a value the Studio 20 v.3 , as opposed to any deficiency with the S2. To assess how the S2 justifies its price, the comparison has to be directly done with similarly priced speakers.

With the subwoofer, Paradigm had already introduced the Seismic series to take over the $1,500 price point from the Servo 15. Moving the Servo 15 up to the $2,200 price point made sense given that the new model makes some substantial improvements over the previous model (superior driver with far more air movement per stroke, much more powerful amp, deeper extension). Unfortunately for people looking in the $1,500 price point, they no longer have that 15" sealed sub option available to thhem.

On performance value, the Studio series prices went up 15% to 25% across the board when the v.3 series was introduced. Compared to the v.2 series, whether or not this represents an improvement to the price/performance equation depends on how you view the audible changes that Paradigm made to the Studio series.

It seems that they were basically trying to expand their product line to a higher end (dollar wise) market they had not yet tapped into. This seems to have been more of a marketing driven goal than an engineering/performance driven one.

You very well might be right. If you look at the speakers themselves, without listening to them, the Studio v.3 in some ways less ruggedly constructed than the Studio v.2 models. However, in my listenings they definitely make strides in just about every way in terms of the audio performance. The Signature series models weigh about the same as the equivalent Studio v.2 models.

I think that there was an engineering/performance goal of making a series of speakers that improved upon the existing Studio v.2 series. The market driven goal was determining whether this improvement would be sold as its own series, as an improved version of the Studios, or both. Paradigm obviously opted for both. The original rumor when the Signature series was getting developed was that the Studio v.3 series would double in cost from the v.2. End result was a slightly more expensive Studio series and the 2x-3x more expensive Signature series, so on average that rumor was sorta right.