RGA, to continue our friendly discussion...

[RGA]

Woohifer -

No pooint discussing this with you - if you were interested you would ask them yourself - you don't understand the design so - I am not an engineer so if you want the answers ask them .......I am uninterested in convincing you. Most everyone who has AN E or J's knows very well that for a corner speaker they get consistantly similar results in any room --- even when not placed in corners like the reviews done in Hi-Fi CHoice yield them sterling results. And tht is because they are NOT designed looking at just a Frequency amplitude phase approach - they have in house measuring instruments which look for other things. They also have proprietary information they are unlikely to just give to other manufacturers just as Paradigm and B&W are going to covet certain approache they don;t want competitors to discover.

My comment on 35hz was misprinted because I was in a big hurry to leave - that was not to refer to the AN speakers.

Kex - been down the business advertising model -I have no care whether or how much advertising is done said it numerously if the product stands up. The point of advertising is to help you sell more. If you do your advertisng well you can sell more and build name loyalty and then cut corners and still convince people of their superiority - Alla Bose.

The DIY issue I don't have a problem with - Explain to Wooch that there is mark-up in speakers - and that it's ok to make an educated guess about things in this world. Umm ask Paradigm the type of wood in the Studio 100. Then go to hard ware store and ask for the cabinet shapes. Umm yeah. Then look for drivers - They are not THAT expensive even the expensive ones - then the zip cord for wires and whatever crossover etc. Now all of this is RETAIL parts. Now you know that making in house is way cheaper or why do it in house. So they probably get volume discount on said woods, we don;t know the manufacturing cost of said Paradigm Woofer and tweeter - but you know that it will be far LESS than the retail price.

I'm not picking on Paradigm it applies to ALL manufacturers including AN. What I am suggesting is that AN gets picked on for prices. However they give the buiyer the option to reduce the cost by half or more by making the kit. Which is an admission that labour is what's driving the price. Because obviously they make profit on the Kits as well. And the woodworker is making profit on the Cabinets etc.

You can bet your ass you can save at LEAST 60% if you buikld ANY speaker on the market yourself. I have no doubt you get better results with a IY kit - some people here here have made Subs for ~$400.00 that the woofer alone is worth more by itself from a parts perspective than some retail Subs going for $400.00.

[Woochifer]

No pooint discussing this with you - if you were interested you would ask them yourself - you don't understand the design so - I am not an engineer so if you want the answers ask them .......I am uninterested in convincing you. Most everyone who has AN E or J's knows very well that for a corner speaker they get consistantly similar results in any room --- even when not placed in corners like the reviews done in Hi-Fi CHoice yield them sterling results. And tht is because they are NOT designed looking at just a Frequency amplitude phase approach - they have in house measuring instruments which look for other things. They also have proprietary information they are unlikely to just give to other manufacturers just as Paradigm and B&W are going to covet certain approache they don;t want competitors to discover.

Sorry, but it's one thing to wax poetic about speakers that you own (which all buyers tend to do to some extent), it's quite another to take your lovefest to the point of arguing that those ANs somehow rise above every measureable wave phenomena. Room effects are what they are, NO speaker is exempt from them. So long as you have reflective walls, room boundaries that are shorter than the low frequency wavelengths, and wave patterns that have not been adjusted to the room dimensions, then you will have room-induced effects. If the conventional wisdom is so incorrect, then why am I able to directly correlate what I measure when I perform a room correction with what I hear?

When you talk about consistency from room to room, is this based on what AN owners are telling you? Sounds really consistent and objective to me! Heaven forbid if anyone actually broke out a SPL meter or RTA, and took a measurement. Of course, ANs are exempt from conventional frequency measurements, right? You need a proprietary tool with a proprietary unit of measurement to truly gauge what they sound like.

The DIY issue I don't have a problem with - Explain to Wooch that there is mark-up in speakers - and that it's ok to make an educated guess about things in this world.

Yeah, and your guesses are SOOOOOO educated! I'm sure you based all of the numbers that you throw around on your intimate knowledge of how much parts really cost, and that you know the actual cost for every part that goes into a Studio 100, including those that are not available thru retail channels.

I don't know why you think I have this issue with mark up. If speaker companies offer up speakers at the price points that their customers are willing to cover for the sound quality that they get, then more power to them if the companies can make money off of that. The main thing that I'm questioning is the validity of the numbers that you throw around. Especially given that you clearly have no actual data about the cost structure of these companies that you rant about and criticize, nor do you have any actual data about AN's charitable organization either. You don't actually know if Peter Q's a philanthropic pauper or if he's swimming in rivers of currency.

The part that you're forgetting about is that Paradigm (and other speaker companies) also design and put all of the pieces together based on the performance parameters that they've set forth for each model. The expertise in balancing out all of these parameters is also part of what you're paying for. A DIY article or book will give you an idea of how individual changes affect the measured parameters, but they won't make the decision for you as to how to prioritize the various tradeoffs that go into the design process.

You can bet your ass you can save at LEAST 60% if you buikld ANY speaker on the market yourself. I have no doubt you get better results with a IY kit - some people here here have made Subs for ~$400.00 that the woofer alone is worth more by itself from a parts perspective than some retail Subs going for $400.00.

AT LEAST 60%? That would depend on how much the speaker manufacturer wants to charge you for their proprietary design, and where they choose to focus the markup. The Adire Audio Rava, for example, would actually cost MORE if you just bought the driver and plate amp from Adire and purchased a prefinished 12" sealed box from someone else. In Adire's case, they put all of the mark up into the driver because that's where all of their testing and R&D went. The box is just a generic cabinet that has an interior volume closest to a true mid-Q alignment (which yields the lowest average frequency response deviation in a sealed box) for the Shiva driver.

[RGA]

You know I have this song in my mind from Holly Cole "I can see clearly now" Substitute See with Hear and that's what basically happened when I did my comparisons.

You still have to be careful with positioning - no speaker can get around that - nevertheless they have relatively simple recomendations for best results - most speaker makers do. AN themselves have tested their speakers in over a hundred different kinds of rooms/shapes etc - once agian I as a customer am not privey to every bit of technology associated with their speakers - there are info bits here and there.

I suggest you make your next vavcation to Victoria BC and pop in - compare the Paradigm of your choice - spend the day bring your SPL or borrow theirs etc and pick any of their rooms and set it up any which way you wish - allow them to set the AN's just by ear alone. Then compare. Real simple. You will be pleasantly surprised to learn that you've been led down the garden path. But hey I was - But "I can hear clearly now the advertising hype is gone."

[Woochifer]

I suggest you make your next vavcation to Victoria BC and pop in - compare the Paradigm of your choice - spend the day bring your SPL or borrow theirs etc and pick any of their rooms and set it up any which way you wish - allow them to set the AN's just by ear alone. Then compare. Real simple. You will be pleasantly surprised to learn that you've been led down the garden path. But hey I was - But "I can hear clearly now the advertising hype is gone."

However I will tone down my stance - Terry said something good to me - some people need to go through years and years of these "kinds" of speakers before they learn to appreciate what it is that AN is doing. So it's not my place to rush the learning. I started with a Fisher system(and not a "good" Fisher system) - so I've had a long way to come. I want to rush people past my mistakes. Of course i knew people who loved my other systems - so I should not assume they won;t be good enough for many many people

Look, I don't take any issue with your preference for AN, and I am open to listening to new equipment. For all I know, I might actually like the ANs when I get around to trying them out But, implicit in the above quotes is your belief that people form their preferences out of ignorance, and that if they would only follow the exact same path as you, they will arrive at the same conclusions that you did. Of course, we know that's not the case. Don't equate "learning" with sharing the same priorities and preferences.

[RGA]

Yes good point Woochifer - the post comes out like I'm saying it's a mistake to buy the other products --- and no doubt it sounds like i'm saying if you don't buy AN you're ignorant. I re-read it and it's exactly the way it comes across.

The problem I have is that I feel strongly as to some of the speakers based off of my auditions. SO do I chuck it out and recommend the big brands - after all AN is far far harder to find - just because they're easier to find if it's not the speaker I believe in? I mean if I got sucked into the acoustimass and hated em and then came onto a recommedation forum and said how aweful that system was for sonics and you should look at XYZ, I doubt I'd take any sort of grief.

I was thinking about this this morning. Maybe I'm not being at all fair - for the price difference between the AN J and the Studio 100 the AN J "SHOULD" bloody well be better as in Canada the the J retails for double the money. To use a car analogy which is dangerous I would EXPECT a helluva lot more out of a $50,000 car than a $25,000.00 car and one SHOULD expect that out of a speaker or a cd player or amp etc.

And I picked on the 100V3 a bit because of the $2700.00 price. The B&W 604S3 is $2000.00 and I found it better. But really it's close and some out there may very well like the 100V3 more and be willing to pony up the extra cash for it.

Really if I'm going to discuss the AN speakers I need to have an eye on the list to list prices and then things will become more grey. For instance I have not heard that big Von Sweikert floorstander for around the price of the AN E - then things may not become so clear cut to me. The AN J retails for around $4500.00Cdn.. So that's the price range I should be comparing the speaker to (and have).

[kexodusc]

Kex - been down the business advertising model -I have no care whether or how much advertising is done said it numerously if the product stands up. The point of advertising is to help you sell more. If you do your advertisng well you can sell more and build name loyalty and then cut corners and still convince people of their superiority - Alla Bose.

We'll leave it at that then, I trust you won't make statements to the effect that you pay for advertising instead of sound anymore, however bad that sound may be...

Umm ask Paradigm the type of wood in the Studio 100. Then go to hard ware store and ask for the cabinet shapes.

Probably 3/4" MDF, though i can't tell for sure under the veneer....the driver costs, I have no idea, but their retail cost to people when they blow a tweeter is far too high, probably because they're not in the business of selling parts.

You can bet your ass you can save at LEAST 60% if you buikld ANY speaker on the market yourself. I have no doubt you get better results with a IY kit - some people here here have made Subs for ~$400.00 that the woofer alone is worth more by itself from a parts perspective than some retail Subs going for $400.00.

You can save even more if you don't buy a kit, but rather design a speaker from the bottom up. Alot of experimentation and frustration at times, but I would argue that this is where you really begin to understand why a speaker sounds good or bad.

For all these interesting side discussions, I still don't think we've adequately adressed the issue of whether or not a quality subwoofer would improve an AN system's performance.
I will continue to suggest it does based on my listening experience, not to the point that AN's sans-subwoofer sound like crap or anything, but a worthwhile improvement, nonetheless.

And while I do acknowledge and respect Peter's experience and wisdom in this field (despite the odd shot I throw at him), I can't help but feel he might have become biased into believing what sounds right or real over the years to the point that the AN signature sound is what he's accepted as real...this is easy to do, especially when a speaker sounds so good. But maybe to Peter any variation doesn't sound right to him because of years of familiarity his speakers. I've seen this trait in many a designer, they fall in love with their children and defend to the death what they've created. Hey if you've lived in Vancouver drinking the water for years, it becomes your reference for how water should taste...but move to Kootenay and it's a whole new ball game.

After all, to me the subwoofer vs. full range speaker argument is moot, it's basically a 3-way system integrated into one box or not. If each component does it's job in the chain, and "specializes" on its task at x level of quality and performance, the end result should be indicative.

[lattybuck]

Round 2 ended.
Round 3 will start at the sound of the bell.

This is an interesting thread.

Take care all

[RGA]

Kex I can't argue with you on this - Peter like other designers chose the "sound" he liked best and then worked and worked to make it better and better. He's had the top Apogees, the top horns stats etc etc. He was a dealer and had the best stuff heard it all over the years - he's at every show hearing the competitors.

At the end of the day though AN like all speakers have a sound - and the man is the height of anal when it comes to his product. More-so than Kondo-San even. Some of their amplifiers are made to order yielding a normal wait time. My dealer takes pre-payment and the amplifier in question was a $40,000.00 model. AN could not get the particular capacitor - so it sat for 6 months until that capacitor or some part became available - there is no substitute in their mind and they won't let it go out the door until it's the exact part. As a ypical company they leave much to be desired - insulting the high end community, insulting the reviewers, not bribing them (which is an insult of sorts to them as well) is not much help. He claims that they have measuring instruments that allows them to find things no one else is able to find - but you ask for that and they can cover under the proprietory arguement that then they'd lose their advantage. (The only way to buy what he says was to listen --- I did that before buying however - so it's easy for me to make those links). He proved it with the end product so his claims to how he got there cannot be ignored --- the ends, as it were, justifies his claimed means.

There are things about his speakers that they don't advertise or I should say even mention or hint at. Everyone who talks AN up here and other forums have "bits" of info - their site is an absolute joke. Yes they talk about cabinet shap and driver/speaker matching and wiring etc - but notice little is mentioned about the crossover - AN is a time aligned speaker - not mentioned anywhere.

I have this impression from e-mails and info my dealer gives about him. Firstly, he believes his approach is best - but really would you want anything less froma speaker maker - even if you disagee - I want the guy to not be swayed over every little trend going. (of course that yields the problem as you say of becoming overly stubborn to your design) Secondly, He knows what his products look like and who he'll likely sell to - REAL Audiophiles. His stuff doesn't look cute and cuddly or have high WAF nor is it feature friendly - even for two channel enthusiests. So he figures why bother advertising? The people who buy based off the ads and off of reviews are not likely the target market for his product. The people who want Bentley and Ferrari know where Bently and Ferrari are will seek them out.

If you have seen a good sampling of the dealers in BC - you will get a good understanding of WHY the dealer carrying Audio Note carries them. Note this is not strictly to do with sound. The dealer is old school - they carry 6 or so different turntable brands and records line the walls. Lots of tube gear and one new home theater room set-up by B&W just this year. It's set up like a home clutterred with stuff where you sit and you listen - they have their sale room where they'll set up the Paradigms and the B&Ws etc. Then they have their "listening" systems in the other two rooms comprised of AudioNote. The main room they listen to music in all day is the upscale AN system the other room is the lower end AN system where you can alternate amps, speakers etc.

As you know Peter does not like 3-way designs (with few exceptions the Type A being the only one I know of). Peter wants consistency with his speakers as much as possible and wants the sub time aligned (the way they do it) at and around the crossover point on the system they use in house. He says that they have worked on a sub for years but are not getitng "uniformly predictable result that always improves on the overall sound." Once again there is no advantage in fact a disadvantage for Peter to recommend against subwoofers. A lot of people who like subs reading that will say forget it subs don't work with AN so Cross that company off my list. It's not like AN has an alternative to sell.

Of course what is largely forgotten is that AN has improved their designs over the last 15 years as well - and you'll be hard pressed to feel a "need" for a subwoofer to start with - except for "feeling" bass in home theater Movies - but then AN wasn't really designed for Home theater. My wharfedales don;t need a sub - very little musical information dips below 30hz - and the J and E both go well under with significant power under 30hz. There are some pretty pricey subs that don;t go as low or as loud in the bass of these speakers.

Like arguing over most cd players - arguing about how sound coopes from 20hz-30hz and that's the range when you're talking about a sub and the AN E/LX or better is to talk about a very insignificant part of the spectrum. Also the difference between E models alone will have people scratching their head. The E/D was less sensitive the E/LX made some gains in some areas but some feel the older version was balanced a bit better - but because Peter is designing a "system" the gain in one part of the frequency range may be subdued by the amp in that range to get both to "work" better...Who knows --- hell Paul Messenger noting these issues with the E did keep em after all - and in the end that;s the point.

Which one will be the one you want to listen long term to and which one will sell the best. Soundhounds has lots of expensive speakers over the years - heard everything because they go to the shows to find new gems they can carry. Selling for 20-30 years these salesfolks. When your entire staff buys the speakers and systems and some of them well before they carried the line --- then what is weird is that I had never relaly heard of them.

However I will tone down my stance - Terry said something good to me - some people need to go through years and years of these "kinds" of speakers before they learn to appreciate what it is that AN is doing. So it's not my place to rush the learning. I started with a Fisher system(and not a "good" Fisher system) - so I've had a long way to come. I want to rush people past my mistakes. Of course i knew people who loved my other systems - so I should not assume they won;t be good enough for many many people.