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  1. #1
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    RGA, to continue our friendly discussion...

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Your Dianna Krall argument is simplistic - Since vocals are in the midband - if you seriously can not tell the difference between "types" of bass response from the E versus most other considred to be Very good speaker's presentation in low level resolution then it's no point further discussing this. Taking the Paradigm 100V3's type of bass presentation and the type offerred by the E or J --- on Dianna Krall's latest album. or her former ones since i have them - the Paradigm Studio 100V3 turns her into a nasal thin sounding brittle highs hacked off edges of notes shadow of her real self. Truly Abysmal.
    RGA, why the heck have you brought Paradigm into this argument? We're talking about your statements claiming a subwoofer depriving a woofer of bass frequencies would have some undesireable effect on midrange?
    My argument: A sub can make things better
    Your argument: No it can't because Paradigm sucks.

    RGA, I will be the first to say I'd rather own the AN E's over the Studio 100's(any version), but in the end, this is my preference for a sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    And this for $2700.00. What exactly was that about proifit margin again? You the one who blasts me for making anti-capitalist statements. Please. From a consumer perspective I compare like priced speakers - if Peter can build it for less money - GOOOOOOD. He deserves it. Because the "like" priced stuff form Paradigm and their ilk is truly caca in comparison. But then not using good cabinets drivers, wiring, crossovers and housed in a bad design and copying the Bose sales model - all adds up to helping destroy the music. But hey don;t worry just buy a SUBwoofer - we know our midrange and bass SUCKS reallyreally bad but if you buiy a SUBwoofer (err woofer), then you will actually get some semblance of bass you SHOULD have got when you spent your $2300.00 on the 705 but didn't.
    I think you're ignoring history here...I brought up Peter's profit margin's in response to your anti-capitalist dribble about Paradigm making money and them being bad for it. Peter does the same thing with a slightly different business model.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Umm Audio Note provides pre-cut cabinets = labour -- you don't have to order the cabinets. Since the AN E/LX retails at about $4,500 US and competes very very well with speakers in that range( in the blind level matched listening panels it was given a best buy along with some other speakers managed a nice Best Buy award - not perfect some complaints not a listening room with corners to really get them going good and room reflections become an issue too far out from walls creatinga boxy or coloured presentation - but hey of all the vast number of speakers Hi-fi Choice has had since the early 1990s the speaker they kept was the Audio Note - and gee it replaced what? An Audio Note. Not a B&W and most certainly not a Paradigm.
    Yep, labour = money and here's where large corporations can generally thumb smaller outfits in terms of production costs...By the way...I can only assume that at $550 for cabinets, Audio Note charges $450 per hour of labour?
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Well if building my own E --- even overpaying for the cabinets come to $300.00 LESS than some piece of utter crap like the Paradigm Studio 100V3 then thanks it's a no brainer - for the difference I could hire a pro woodworker to put it together for me to boot
    Hey RGA, I'll cut you some cabinets out of any birch plywood/mdf combo you want, and include shipping for for the low price of $350....we gotta deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Now ask Paradigm why we can't get a kit from them?
    Stop...because Paradigm charges way too f'n much for their drivers relative Seas, Peerless, Vifa, Focul, Scan-speak, Audax,etc.. and the average joe could build better cabinets out of MDF and real wood veneers at the expense of some pretty looks...unless Paradigm drastically rethought their business plan, they'd have nothing competitive to offer in a kit form.
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Oh that's right the money the spend on marketing actually has no cost right and their speaker uses $2598.00 worth of parts and the speaker is boxed and shipped and marketed for the difference and the retailer makes no money off them right?
    RGA, I'm gonna hold your hand and walk you through what I feel is a difficult concept for you to grasp when it comes to marketing and costs.
    If Paradigm can make, say $1 million bucks selling speakers WITHOUT advertising, then their choice to incorporate advertising costs would only be made if they expect positive return...if they spent $1000 on advertising, and it only made $990 in profit for them, they'd be out $10 and wouldn't advertise...but if they spent $1000 and made $1010 in proftis back, they'd be up $10, and would advertise...furthermore, that additional profit could be used to lower prices in a competitive marketplace if required, benefitting the consumer as well. Hence, considering advertising in costs of product is wrong...
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Every company's speakers is market up along the way. And crying foul at one company while not addressing the rest of them is ludicrous.
    Yep, you won't get an argument from me here...FYI, I'm just about finished veneering, staining my first pair of the Audioreview.com DIY kit designed by Ed Frias...at about $330 canadian to build a pair, I'm absolutely astounded at how well these sound...they airyness and detail far exceeds my Studio 20's and 40's, and the bass is much more defined, if slightly less deep than the 40's...the soundstage is just wider, deeper and and the imaging of each instruments in far more precise - at 1/3 to 1/4 the cost to boot...I can only assume Paradigm and probably Audio Note can build a pair of speakers cheaper than I can with larger production facilities/equipment at their disposal, and now I'm truly frightened by profit margins in this industry.

  2. #2
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    RGA, why the heck have you brought Paradigm into this argument? We're talking about your statements claiming a subwoofer depriving a woofer of bass frequencies would have some undesireable effect on midrange?
    My argument: A sub can make things better
    Your argument: No it can't because Paradigm sucks.
    The problem both you and woochifer MISS is your own arguemnt. Why theoretically and in practice wiht most speakers, would a subwoofer HELP the midrange of say the Studio 100 when you add a subwoofer. I use The speaker as an example because I know both of you are familiar with the speaker - but there are a dozen others I could pick that sound pretty much as banal as that one. Why? A large if not the biggest reason is the cabinet noise - you relieve the floorstander of producing bass when the cheap cabinets muddy the sound. I have done it with my own Boston sub and wharfedales. Relieving the speaker of that opened up the sound considerably. It had numerous other problems like the sub could not approach the bass depth or dynamic impact so even if I got a seamless integration it still would have been a no go for this particular speaker.

    The problem here is that both of you totally miss is that you are under the assumption that standmounts are cleaer faster etc than their floorstanding counterparts. Why is this? The standmount has less crappy cabinet and less to go wrong - which is why so many people flock to standmounts. I myself like the B&W 602S3 best in the line for example for the same reason. With Audio Note when you go to a bigger speaker in the line you have ZERO problem with issues these other companies have simply because they have taken the cabinet into account. If your entire design approach to speaker building is to put drivers in a box and then try to eliminate ALL "bad" noise by damping Everything as well as you possibly can then you're in for trouble unless you really really do it well(weight). AN and i'm aware of no other box on the market in any form - does not design speakers in that manner. You do not want to "relieve" the speaker of bass notes. This would be based on another typical assumption that there is a BURDEN on standmount speakers to produce bass which then has a negative impact on the midrange. Well you are BOTH correct in that sense for your typical Paradigm and B&W loudspeakers - when the 602S3 or like speaker is pushed the speaker can have problems producing bass and midrange clearly - the AN J and E have no such problems producing large scale bass while being "electrostatic" like in the midrange. And since the speaker is extremely dynamic and fast due to a much better woofer and easy to drive there is no undue demands where the woofer starts to grumble prooducing 35hz.
    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc

    RGA, I will be the first to say I'd rather own the AN E's over the Studio 100's(any version), but in the end, this is my preference for a sound.
    No I bet it would be most people's preference those who have any sort of knowledge as to what live music sounds like - granted the E costs more but it does not need to. Audio Note under Peter does not sell the Kits. It's controlled by a separate body. You don;t have to buy the cabinets right? SO it's up to you. Since most people are not master woodsmen nor do I won the thousands of dollars in machinery to do it right - it is FAR cheaper for me to get them to do it for me. It's cheaper than me taking a course - buying the materials - still having to buy the wood(gas to get the home depot) --- and then probably screwing the first set up and having to buy extra pieces. If you know what to do in building then you can pretty much make any speaker for 1/10 the retail price. The B&W 302 sold for $300.CDN.US That speaker cost B&W a total of $30.00US to build.(includes labour) - This speaker was taken apart and assessed from materials perspective a number of years ago and the estimated time to build so it's not a wholly invented number but a reasonable assessment.

    Now look at the 705. Nicer wood not much bigger in house drivers - and they charge $2300.00. Where did the extra $2000.00Cdn go? Kevlar? a Metal tweeter? Ahh. It might cost B&W Double and lets be generous 5 times what the 302 cost - 5X 30 hmm $150.00 maybe.

    Got to go rest to follow.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    You don't get it obviously the speaker does not need bass to work right never said that - it needs the bottom end on bottom end material - to reproduce the superior bass response that the speaker is capable of. Handing that over to the "kind" of bass response on offer from other devices from other cabinets won't. You think the way you're thinking because you believe that that the "kind" of bass Pradigm and their ilk put out resmbles reality - it doesn;t and until you hearAudio Note's J or E properly set up in their system - then you haven;t a clue as to the key bit of info here.
    But, you're arguing from the vantage point that the ANs cannot possibly benefit from the addition of a subwoofer because they have to have the low end signal range in order to work right. Kex asked you a very simple question, what if the material does not have any low end in the signal?

    Your responses are really crossing into the ludicrous rhelm because you're now presuming that you know how I perceive low frequencies and reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Once again it's not exagerated - it is relative - it seems to me you've heard a lot of similar stuff - people who recommend taking home two or three "like" speakers to determine which is better - sorry but AN hits you any room I've tried within virtuually any track of any CD or LP I own - instantly it sounds more right and you cannot go back to that sound. It is not unlike hearing sound from a $9.00 clock radio and then comparing it to the Royal Philharmonic. It's not subtle. You may be used to that - and Subs may very well help simply to avoid the crappy kind of bass outputted from the 100. Certainly reduce the bad design by buying the 20 and a sub
    No, the AN hits YOU right, but your generalizations presume that everyone will react to them the same way that you do. This whole relativity crap that you've come up with is basically throwing everything else out there into the scrap heap just because you like something better, and these blanket condemnations that you make do not allow that other people simply have different preferences than you. Anyone who believes differently than you is into "technobabble" or buying speakers based on looks or adding speakers to their system because they're unhappy with the two-channel performance or buying speakers for any reason other than something simply sounding best to their ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Hey it's a given that people who own products I don't care for won't listen to anything I say anyway. Chances are they bought into the magazines and the industry writings already. I could care less if anyone takes me seriously - the people who have auditoined them here in the A/B comparisons and those of a fellow AN owner in town who lends out his speakers - we know. Good ol Socrates Cave - I am happy to have moved beyond the darkness. It's a tough thing because it means admitting what I thought I knew and all those countless hours reading Stereophile and others prattle on about the endless technobabble was for not.
    Once again, you're presuming to know more about how people arrive at their listening preferences than they do! People who have different preferences and priorities than you have simply "bought in" into the industry writings. You've heard the AN, so you KNOW that everybody else is just basing their preferences on "technobabble" and reading magazines, etc. The possibility of someone preferring something else in an A/B comparison just isn't possible in your world. If that's moving beyond the darkness, then the place that you've wound up certainly isn't the light.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Well you have a point - maybe they honestly DON'T know. Maybe their 4 driver multi way much larger heavier cabinets put out inferior bass, midrange and treble and require way more power for a reason - that reason escapes me however.
    More nonsensical rantings and baseless pontifications and presumptions on your part. Again, you're presuming that your word is definitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I have heard and not loved Maggie either - The Magnepans have logistic problems which will rule them out for many and certain sound traits which, although I've not heard the new big ones, rule em out for me. My statement was that I'm not surprised people make such a huge jump for such a wildly different sound - I never said they were right or wrong - but if I kept hearing the endless sream of Paradigm PSB, JBL, Energy, and POLK's I'm hardly surprised that people jump to something else non boxed.
    Maggies "wildly different"? Guess what, they are the most frequently owned speakers among Stereophile subscribers! That's right, the people who believe in "technobabble" opting for a "wildly different" speaker. How do you explain that?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    High end or high priced? Yes I've heard different that was not necessarily better as well - the Magnepan SMG, speakers from Vandersteen, etc.
    High end or high priced? You tell me, those definitions are subjective anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Umm I don't like the double standard you obviously believe. Audio Note makes a buck and their the devil but Paradigm makes a buck but their sensibly priced loudspeakers improving the industry at large. I've never said AN doesn't or should not be operating at a profit - hell I hope he makes the biggest profit in the industry. But people like to continually bring up AN's profit as some sort of evil thing. Umm please explain it to me. If AN's $5000.00 speaker makes Peter $4000.00 in pure profit and Paradigm's $5000.00 speaker makes Paradigm only $3000.00 Profit I'm trying to figure out what the hell that has to do with tea in China - or the "sound" of the speakers in question.
    What double standard do I "obviously" believe? I'm simply stating that all companies are out to make a buck, and that just because a company makes something that you like, that's no reason to single them out and annoint sainthood upon them. And conversely, if a company makes products that you don't like, it's not justification to take nonsensical shots at everything that they do from product development to manufacturing to marketing and advertising.

    I'm not the one that's bringing up AN's profit margin. I don't know anything about their business model, nor do I presume to know anything about it. And the same holds true for Paradigm, so I don't make presumptions about things that I lack information about. Why you choose to argue about marketing and profit margins as if they have anything to do with the quality of the products is beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The problem both you and woochifer MISS is your own arguemnt. Why theoretically and in practice wiht most speakers, would a subwoofer HELP the midrange of say the Studio 100 when you add a subwoofer. I use The speaker as an example because I know both of you are familiar with the speaker - but there are a dozen others I could pick that sound pretty much as banal as that one. Why? A large if not the biggest reason is the cabinet noise - you relieve the floorstander of producing bass when the cheap cabinets muddy the sound. I have done it with my own Boston sub and wharfedales. Relieving the speaker of that opened up the sound considerably. It had numerous other problems like the sub could not approach the bass depth or dynamic impact so even if I got a seamless integration it still would have been a no go for this particular speaker.
    The problem with your argument is that you have no idea of what the true causal effects are. The corner placement for the ANs helps the bass reinforcement, but if the room dimensions do not line up right, you could also wind up with something that sounds uncontrollably boomy.

    With a Studio 100, you can set the crossover point around 40 Hz and use the subwoofer for low end reinforcement. How does this help the midrange? By removing the signal content below the tuned port frequency, you avoid the extreme driver excursion that occurs when the signal goes below the tuned port frequency. Anytime you can minimize the unnecessary driver movement, you help the overall sound coherency and remove a burden from the amp. And it's not just with sources that have low frequency information that this occurs, vinyl sources especially have surface noise that transmits subsonic low frequency information that if left unchecked also diminishes the overall coherency of the sound quality. Also, avoiding the corner placement gives you more predictable tonal balance, and if the room mode occurs in that range, then the sub allows for either repositioning for the most even bass response or using a parametric EQ to attenuate the peak frequency signal.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The problem here is that both of you totally miss is that you are under the assumption that standmounts are cleaer faster etc than their floorstanding counterparts. Why is this? The standmount has less crappy cabinet and less to go wrong - which is why so many people flock to standmounts. I myself like the B&W 602S3 best in the line for example for the same reason. With Audio Note when you go to a bigger speaker in the line you have ZERO problem with issues these other companies have simply because they have taken the cabinet into account. If your entire design approach to speaker building is to put drivers in a box and then try to eliminate ALL "bad" noise by damping Everything as well as you possibly can then you're in for trouble unless you really really do it well(weight). AN and i'm aware of no other box on the market in any form - does not design speakers in that manner. You do not want to "relieve" the speaker of bass notes. This would be based on another typical assumption that there is a BURDEN on standmount speakers to produce bass which then has a negative impact on the midrange. Well you are BOTH correct in that sense for your typical Paradigm and B&W loudspeakers - when the 602S3 or like speaker is pushed the speaker can have problems producing bass and midrange clearly - the AN J and E have no such problems producing large scale bass while being "electrostatic" like in the midrange. And since the speaker is extremely dynamic and fast due to a much better woofer and easy to drive there is no undue demands where the woofer starts to grumble prooducing 35hz.
    Quite the contrary, my recommendations on standmounts are almost always in conjunction with 1) the price; and 2) compensating for the room effects. In the price ranges that I done the most recent listenings ($1,000 and under), most of the floorstanders I've heard are indeed problematic. The degree to which this occurs of course varies. For example, the B&W Nautilus 801 is much better speaker overall than the 805.

    As before, you're just paraphrasing stuff from Peter Q as fact. You have no factual information on the causal effects, so why bring them into the discussion? Also, how do you actually know that the "woofer starts to grumble producing 35 Hz"? If you've never tried the ANs with a subwoofer, then you have no idea how they would react to not having to reproduce the lower frequencies. You only opine that they sound great already, but that's no basis for concluding that their midrange cannot sound better with the lows removed from the signal.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    No I bet it would be most people's preference those who have any sort of knowledge as to what live music sounds like - granted the E costs more but it does not need to. Audio Note under Peter does not sell the Kits. It's controlled by a separate body. You don;t have to buy the cabinets right? SO it's up to you. Since most people are not master woodsmen nor do I won the thousands of dollars in machinery to do it right - it is FAR cheaper for me to get them to do it for me. It's cheaper than me taking a course - buying the materials - still having to buy the wood(gas to get the home depot) --- and then probably screwing the first set up and having to buy extra pieces. If you know what to do in building then you can pretty much make any speaker for 1/10 the retail price. The B&W 302 sold for $300.CDN.US That speaker cost B&W a total of $30.00US to build.(includes labour) - This speaker was taken apart and assessed from materials perspective a number of years ago and the estimated time to build so it's not a wholly invented number but a reasonable assessment.
    All of this endless presumption about what "most people's" preferences are is getting tiresome and frankly insulting. You can ONLY speak for yourself! When you start talking about how "most people" who "have any knowledge of live music" would view things the way that you do, that's the height of pompous arrogance. Guess what, I attend live performances all the time, go to symphonic performances at least three times a year, and I used to play both violin and piano. I would think that I know what a live instrument sounds like. Your presumption that people who would choose Paradigm do so only because they lack experience over what live music actually sounds like is laughable at best. And at the risk of presuming myself, I doubt that I'm the only Paradigm buyer who regularly listens to live music.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Now look at the 705. Nicer wood not much bigger in house drivers - and they charge $2300.00. Where did the extra $2000.00Cdn go? Kevlar? a Metal tweeter? Ahh. It might cost B&W Double and lets be generous 5 times what the 302 cost - 5X 30 hmm $150.00 maybe.
    Once again, quoting dollar figures without any information other than what a biased imagination conjures up. Very enlightening, I guess that emerging out of your cave allows for this kind of factless point.

  4. #4
    RGA
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    Woohifer -

    No pooint discussing this with you - if you were interested you would ask them yourself - you don't understand the design so - I am not an engineer so if you want the answers ask them .......I am uninterested in convincing you. Most everyone who has AN E or J's knows very well that for a corner speaker they get consistantly similar results in any room --- even when not placed in corners like the reviews done in Hi-Fi CHoice yield them sterling results. And tht is because they are NOT designed looking at just a Frequency amplitude phase approach - they have in house measuring instruments which look for other things. They also have proprietary information they are unlikely to just give to other manufacturers just as Paradigm and B&W are going to covet certain approache they don;t want competitors to discover.

    My comment on 35hz was misprinted because I was in a big hurry to leave - that was not to refer to the AN speakers.

    Kex - been down the business advertising model -I have no care whether or how much advertising is done said it numerously if the product stands up. The point of advertising is to help you sell more. If you do your advertisng well you can sell more and build name loyalty and then cut corners and still convince people of their superiority - Alla Bose.

    The DIY issue I don't have a problem with - Explain to Wooch that there is mark-up in speakers - and that it's ok to make an educated guess about things in this world. Umm ask Paradigm the type of wood in the Studio 100. Then go to hard ware store and ask for the cabinet shapes. Umm yeah. Then look for drivers - They are not THAT expensive even the expensive ones - then the zip cord for wires and whatever crossover etc. Now all of this is RETAIL parts. Now you know that making in house is way cheaper or why do it in house. So they probably get volume discount on said woods, we don;t know the manufacturing cost of said Paradigm Woofer and tweeter - but you know that it will be far LESS than the retail price.

    I'm not picking on Paradigm it applies to ALL manufacturers including AN. What I am suggesting is that AN gets picked on for prices. However they give the buiyer the option to reduce the cost by half or more by making the kit. Which is an admission that labour is what's driving the price. Because obviously they make profit on the Kits as well. And the woodworker is making profit on the Cabinets etc.

    You can bet your ass you can save at LEAST 60% if you buikld ANY speaker on the market yourself. I have no doubt you get better results with a IY kit - some people here here have made Subs for ~$400.00 that the woofer alone is worth more by itself from a parts perspective than some retail Subs going for $400.00.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    No pooint discussing this with you - if you were interested you would ask them yourself - you don't understand the design so - I am not an engineer so if you want the answers ask them .......I am uninterested in convincing you. Most everyone who has AN E or J's knows very well that for a corner speaker they get consistantly similar results in any room --- even when not placed in corners like the reviews done in Hi-Fi CHoice yield them sterling results. And tht is because they are NOT designed looking at just a Frequency amplitude phase approach - they have in house measuring instruments which look for other things. They also have proprietary information they are unlikely to just give to other manufacturers just as Paradigm and B&W are going to covet certain approache they don;t want competitors to discover.
    Sorry, but it's one thing to wax poetic about speakers that you own (which all buyers tend to do to some extent), it's quite another to take your lovefest to the point of arguing that those ANs somehow rise above every measureable wave phenomena. Room effects are what they are, NO speaker is exempt from them. So long as you have reflective walls, room boundaries that are shorter than the low frequency wavelengths, and wave patterns that have not been adjusted to the room dimensions, then you will have room-induced effects. If the conventional wisdom is so incorrect, then why am I able to directly correlate what I measure when I perform a room correction with what I hear?

    When you talk about consistency from room to room, is this based on what AN owners are telling you? Sounds really consistent and objective to me! Heaven forbid if anyone actually broke out a SPL meter or RTA, and took a measurement. Of course, ANs are exempt from conventional frequency measurements, right? You need a proprietary tool with a proprietary unit of measurement to truly gauge what they sound like.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The DIY issue I don't have a problem with - Explain to Wooch that there is mark-up in speakers - and that it's ok to make an educated guess about things in this world.
    Yeah, and your guesses are SOOOOOO educated! I'm sure you based all of the numbers that you throw around on your intimate knowledge of how much parts really cost, and that you know the actual cost for every part that goes into a Studio 100, including those that are not available thru retail channels.

    I don't know why you think I have this issue with mark up. If speaker companies offer up speakers at the price points that their customers are willing to cover for the sound quality that they get, then more power to them if the companies can make money off of that. The main thing that I'm questioning is the validity of the numbers that you throw around. Especially given that you clearly have no actual data about the cost structure of these companies that you rant about and criticize, nor do you have any actual data about AN's charitable organization either. You don't actually know if Peter Q's a philanthropic pauper or if he's swimming in rivers of currency.

    The part that you're forgetting about is that Paradigm (and other speaker companies) also design and put all of the pieces together based on the performance parameters that they've set forth for each model. The expertise in balancing out all of these parameters is also part of what you're paying for. A DIY article or book will give you an idea of how individual changes affect the measured parameters, but they won't make the decision for you as to how to prioritize the various tradeoffs that go into the design process.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    You can bet your ass you can save at LEAST 60% if you buikld ANY speaker on the market yourself. I have no doubt you get better results with a IY kit - some people here here have made Subs for ~$400.00 that the woofer alone is worth more by itself from a parts perspective than some retail Subs going for $400.00.
    AT LEAST 60%? That would depend on how much the speaker manufacturer wants to charge you for their proprietary design, and where they choose to focus the markup. The Adire Audio Rava, for example, would actually cost MORE if you just bought the driver and plate amp from Adire and purchased a prefinished 12" sealed box from someone else. In Adire's case, they put all of the mark up into the driver because that's where all of their testing and R&D went. The box is just a generic cabinet that has an interior volume closest to a true mid-Q alignment (which yields the lowest average frequency response deviation in a sealed box) for the Shiva driver.

  6. #6
    RGA
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    You know I have this song in my mind from Holly Cole "I can see clearly now" Substitute See with Hear and that's what basically happened when I did my comparisons.

    You still have to be careful with positioning - no speaker can get around that - nevertheless they have relatively simple recomendations for best results - most speaker makers do. AN themselves have tested their speakers in over a hundred different kinds of rooms/shapes etc - once agian I as a customer am not privey to every bit of technology associated with their speakers - there are info bits here and there.

    I suggest you make your next vavcation to Victoria BC and pop in - compare the Paradigm of your choice - spend the day bring your SPL or borrow theirs etc and pick any of their rooms and set it up any which way you wish - allow them to set the AN's just by ear alone. Then compare. Real simple. You will be pleasantly surprised to learn that you've been led down the garden path. But hey I was - But "I can hear clearly now the advertising hype is gone."

  7. #7
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Kex - been down the business advertising model -I have no care whether or how much advertising is done said it numerously if the product stands up. The point of advertising is to help you sell more. If you do your advertisng well you can sell more and build name loyalty and then cut corners and still convince people of their superiority - Alla Bose.
    We'll leave it at that then, I trust you won't make statements to the effect that you pay for advertising instead of sound anymore, however bad that sound may be...
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Umm ask Paradigm the type of wood in the Studio 100. Then go to hard ware store and ask for the cabinet shapes.
    Probably 3/4" MDF, though i can't tell for sure under the veneer....the driver costs, I have no idea, but their retail cost to people when they blow a tweeter is far too high, probably because they're not in the business of selling parts.
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    You can bet your ass you can save at LEAST 60% if you buikld ANY speaker on the market yourself. I have no doubt you get better results with a IY kit - some people here here have made Subs for ~$400.00 that the woofer alone is worth more by itself from a parts perspective than some retail Subs going for $400.00.
    You can save even more if you don't buy a kit, but rather design a speaker from the bottom up. Alot of experimentation and frustration at times, but I would argue that this is where you really begin to understand why a speaker sounds good or bad.

    For all these interesting side discussions, I still don't think we've adequately adressed the issue of whether or not a quality subwoofer would improve an AN system's performance.
    I will continue to suggest it does based on my listening experience, not to the point that AN's sans-subwoofer sound like crap or anything, but a worthwhile improvement, nonetheless.

    And while I do acknowledge and respect Peter's experience and wisdom in this field (despite the odd shot I throw at him), I can't help but feel he might have become biased into believing what sounds right or real over the years to the point that the AN signature sound is what he's accepted as real...this is easy to do, especially when a speaker sounds so good. But maybe to Peter any variation doesn't sound right to him because of years of familiarity his speakers. I've seen this trait in many a designer, they fall in love with their children and defend to the death what they've created. Hey if you've lived in Vancouver drinking the water for years, it becomes your reference for how water should taste...but move to Kootenay and it's a whole new ball game.

    After all, to me the subwoofer vs. full range speaker argument is moot, it's basically a 3-way system integrated into one box or not. If each component does it's job in the chain, and "specializes" on its task at x level of quality and performance, the end result should be indicative.

  8. #8
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    Ding!

    Round 2 ended.
    Round 3 will start at the sound of the bell.

    This is an interesting thread.

    Take care all

  9. #9
    RGA
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    Kex I can't argue with you on this - Peter like other designers chose the "sound" he liked best and then worked and worked to make it better and better. He's had the top Apogees, the top horns stats etc etc. He was a dealer and had the best stuff heard it all over the years - he's at every show hearing the competitors.

    At the end of the day though AN like all speakers have a sound - and the man is the height of anal when it comes to his product. More-so than Kondo-San even. Some of their amplifiers are made to order yielding a normal wait time. My dealer takes pre-payment and the amplifier in question was a $40,000.00 model. AN could not get the particular capacitor - so it sat for 6 months until that capacitor or some part became available - there is no substitute in their mind and they won't let it go out the door until it's the exact part. As a ypical company they leave much to be desired - insulting the high end community, insulting the reviewers, not bribing them (which is an insult of sorts to them as well) is not much help. He claims that they have measuring instruments that allows them to find things no one else is able to find - but you ask for that and they can cover under the proprietory arguement that then they'd lose their advantage. (The only way to buy what he says was to listen --- I did that before buying however - so it's easy for me to make those links). He proved it with the end product so his claims to how he got there cannot be ignored --- the ends, as it were, justifies his claimed means.

    There are things about his speakers that they don't advertise or I should say even mention or hint at. Everyone who talks AN up here and other forums have "bits" of info - their site is an absolute joke. Yes they talk about cabinet shap and driver/speaker matching and wiring etc - but notice little is mentioned about the crossover - AN is a time aligned speaker - not mentioned anywhere.

    I have this impression from e-mails and info my dealer gives about him. Firstly, he believes his approach is best - but really would you want anything less froma speaker maker - even if you disagee - I want the guy to not be swayed over every little trend going. (of course that yields the problem as you say of becoming overly stubborn to your design) Secondly, He knows what his products look like and who he'll likely sell to - REAL Audiophiles. His stuff doesn't look cute and cuddly or have high WAF nor is it feature friendly - even for two channel enthusiests. So he figures why bother advertising? The people who buy based off the ads and off of reviews are not likely the target market for his product. The people who want Bentley and Ferrari know where Bently and Ferrari are will seek them out.

    If you have seen a good sampling of the dealers in BC - you will get a good understanding of WHY the dealer carrying Audio Note carries them. Note this is not strictly to do with sound. The dealer is old school - they carry 6 or so different turntable brands and records line the walls. Lots of tube gear and one new home theater room set-up by B&W just this year. It's set up like a home clutterred with stuff where you sit and you listen - they have their sale room where they'll set up the Paradigms and the B&Ws etc. Then they have their "listening" systems in the other two rooms comprised of AudioNote. The main room they listen to music in all day is the upscale AN system the other room is the lower end AN system where you can alternate amps, speakers etc.

    As you know Peter does not like 3-way designs (with few exceptions the Type A being the only one I know of). Peter wants consistency with his speakers as much as possible and wants the sub time aligned (the way they do it) at and around the crossover point on the system they use in house. He says that they have worked on a sub for years but are not getitng "uniformly predictable result that always improves on the overall sound." Once again there is no advantage in fact a disadvantage for Peter to recommend against subwoofers. A lot of people who like subs reading that will say forget it subs don't work with AN so Cross that company off my list. It's not like AN has an alternative to sell.

    Of course what is largely forgotten is that AN has improved their designs over the last 15 years as well - and you'll be hard pressed to feel a "need" for a subwoofer to start with - except for "feeling" bass in home theater Movies - but then AN wasn't really designed for Home theater. My wharfedales don;t need a sub - very little musical information dips below 30hz - and the J and E both go well under with significant power under 30hz. There are some pretty pricey subs that don;t go as low or as loud in the bass of these speakers.

    Like arguing over most cd players - arguing about how sound coopes from 20hz-30hz and that's the range when you're talking about a sub and the AN E/LX or better is to talk about a very insignificant part of the spectrum. Also the difference between E models alone will have people scratching their head. The E/D was less sensitive the E/LX made some gains in some areas but some feel the older version was balanced a bit better - but because Peter is designing a "system" the gain in one part of the frequency range may be subdued by the amp in that range to get both to "work" better...Who knows --- hell Paul Messenger noting these issues with the E did keep em after all - and in the end that;s the point.

    Which one will be the one you want to listen long term to and which one will sell the best. Soundhounds has lots of expensive speakers over the years - heard everything because they go to the shows to find new gems they can carry. Selling for 20-30 years these salesfolks. When your entire staff buys the speakers and systems and some of them well before they carried the line --- then what is weird is that I had never relaly heard of them.

    However I will tone down my stance - Terry said something good to me - some people need to go through years and years of these "kinds" of speakers before they learn to appreciate what it is that AN is doing. So it's not my place to rush the learning. I started with a Fisher system(and not a "good" Fisher system) - so I've had a long way to come. I want to rush people past my mistakes. Of course i knew people who loved my other systems - so I should not assume they won;t be good enough for many many people.

  10. #10
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I suggest you make your next vavcation to Victoria BC and pop in - compare the Paradigm of your choice - spend the day bring your SPL or borrow theirs etc and pick any of their rooms and set it up any which way you wish - allow them to set the AN's just by ear alone. Then compare. Real simple. You will be pleasantly surprised to learn that you've been led down the garden path. But hey I was - But "I can hear clearly now the advertising hype is gone."
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    However I will tone down my stance - Terry said something good to me - some people need to go through years and years of these "kinds" of speakers before they learn to appreciate what it is that AN is doing. So it's not my place to rush the learning. I started with a Fisher system(and not a "good" Fisher system) - so I've had a long way to come. I want to rush people past my mistakes. Of course i knew people who loved my other systems - so I should not assume they won;t be good enough for many many people
    Look, I don't take any issue with your preference for AN, and I am open to listening to new equipment. For all I know, I might actually like the ANs when I get around to trying them out But, implicit in the above quotes is your belief that people form their preferences out of ignorance, and that if they would only follow the exact same path as you, they will arrive at the same conclusions that you did. Of course, we know that's not the case. Don't equate "learning" with sharing the same priorities and preferences.

  11. #11
    RGA
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    Yes good point Woochifer - the post comes out like I'm saying it's a mistake to buy the other products --- and no doubt it sounds like i'm saying if you don't buy AN you're ignorant. I re-read it and it's exactly the way it comes across.

    The problem I have is that I feel strongly as to some of the speakers based off of my auditions. SO do I chuck it out and recommend the big brands - after all AN is far far harder to find - just because they're easier to find if it's not the speaker I believe in? I mean if I got sucked into the acoustimass and hated em and then came onto a recommedation forum and said how aweful that system was for sonics and you should look at XYZ, I doubt I'd take any sort of grief.

    I was thinking about this this morning. Maybe I'm not being at all fair - for the price difference between the AN J and the Studio 100 the AN J "SHOULD" bloody well be better as in Canada the the J retails for double the money. To use a car analogy which is dangerous I would EXPECT a helluva lot more out of a $50,000 car than a $25,000.00 car and one SHOULD expect that out of a speaker or a cd player or amp etc.

    And I picked on the 100V3 a bit because of the $2700.00 price. The B&W 604S3 is $2000.00 and I found it better. But really it's close and some out there may very well like the 100V3 more and be willing to pony up the extra cash for it.

    Really if I'm going to discuss the AN speakers I need to have an eye on the list to list prices and then things will become more grey. For instance I have not heard that big Von Sweikert floorstander for around the price of the AN E - then things may not become so clear cut to me. The AN J retails for around $4500.00Cdn.. So that's the price range I should be comparing the speaker to (and have).

  12. #12
    Forum Regular gonefishin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    If your entire design approach to speaker building is to put drivers in a box and then try to eliminate ALL "bad" noise by damping Everything as well as you possibly can then you're in for trouble unless you really really do it well(weight). AN and i'm aware of no other box on the market in any form - does not design speakers in that manner.

    ummm...I can't think of one speaker that DOESN'T take the cabinet into account when designing speakers...even when they design crappy speakers...I can assure you that the cabinet IS taken into account.

    But to say no other company takes this into consideration? You can't be serious about that...can you? Heck, even the couple of speakers I've built,I had taken the cabinet into strong consideration when building them. It may be true that some companies actually build better boxes than others...but what your talking about is basic design 101 used for ALL speakers!!!!!!!!!! It's even discussed in the early chapters of the speaker design cookbook (basically a speaker building book for dummies). Same principles for what you describe for their crossovers and time alignment. Great marketing for their prospective audience. But some earth shattering revolutionary secret way of designing speakers that isn't used today?...uh no.


    AN does make some decent sounding speakers...I wouldn't buy or recommend their expensive models...but their lower priced models really do best much of their competition...for a great price no less!
    Last edited by gonefishin; 11-14-2004 at 08:36 PM.
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