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  1. #1
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    mtrycraft..check this out ??

    Interesting thread at audio asylum
    http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/spe...es/166416.html
    This guy has some 30 years experience as an audiophile and has tried out most of the high end speakers and systems availiable.He has invested in wilson audio alexandria speakers after taking a second mortage on his house. It would be fun if somebody tells him that he is nut and should throw away his expensive sources ((CDP/Turntable): Walker Proscenium Gold Signature Turntable, Clearaudio Insider Cart) and invest in a Cheap DVD Player and his expensive VTL amps could be replaced with an AV Reciever and his Cables/Interconnects: (Omega Micro Ebony, Transparent Ref MM, Transparent Opus Speaker ) could be replaced with radio shack 16 guage cables and some blster pack interconnects. If your posts are anytjing to go by, his system shoud sound the same after all these modifications and he would save a lot of money too.He could even have avoided his mortage. Any thoughts ??

  2. #2
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    "Bose 901 (ah, the mistakes of youth)"

    X-2 (ah, the mistakes of middle age...well it could have been a Corvette...or a Lamborghini.)

    I think his wife had better watch out. It seems to me this man is in love and might leave her for his speakers. Perhaps if she is open minded she can work out a menage a trois.

    I'm curious about why he installed a tile ceiling. You'd think it would be double sheetrock like the walls.

    As with all things new in life, the infatuation eventually wears off. What will he do when he finds the ineveitable flaws in it and they come out with a new and drastically improved X-3 to fix them? Will he go insane?

    Hey RGA, it uses an indirect firing tweeter. Maybe when Peter Qtwerp gets around to making his own version, he can take that one out too the way you say he will with the Snell A IIIi. So which should it be, the Willson X-2 or the A/N E level 4 silver super duper and an 8 watt Kookigami amplifier. Oh I forgot, that AN setup would have required him to take out a THIRD mortgage on his house ($250,000 for the amp alone.) But from what you say, that upgrade would have been worth it (Pssst, don't tell him, it'd kill him.)

  3. #3
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    All things considered...

    ...I doubt his system sounds $125K(++++) better than my recently acquired Onkyo MC35 Tech mini-system...oh sure, it most likely has better bass response and plays louder, but IMHO, therein lies the rub.

    Quite some time ago one of the older and now defunct mags(High Fidelity or Stereo Review, can't remember which) did a piece on smaller speakers. Wasn't just on smaller speakers, but with their use within close proximity to the listener. It really didn't matter the expense level of the units either, because if you took all the variables, i.e. room effects, SPLs and directionality problems out of the equation, you were left with really good audio reproduction. True you didn't get the bone-jarring, infra-sonic weaponry level of bass, but for the most part it was extremely accurate and detailed. My mucking about with my new little toy has borne this out; it compares quite favorably with my reference system and it's little 20wpc amp also drives my Stax SR-44s nicely.

    Part of this guy's problem is that he has a fairly large-sized listening room. The fact that he HAS a dedicated listening room is indicative of OTHER problems not neccessarily audio related, but I won't go there...I'll let Skep handle that...

    Larger room requires higher SPLs, which requires higher power levels, which requires greater power handling ability on the part of the speaker system and so on, and so forth, and scooby-dooby-dooby...It seems that the five-hour setup time is required just to align and/or aim the driver modules toward ideal performance at a "sweet spot" is sorta' like what that mag was trying to do, but only on a much larger scale.

    One of my fave details in the pics was the little tripod affair supporting his power cord so that the sheer weight of the thing didn't disconnect itself...or it it there to keep it from pulling the Gem box out of the sheetrock?

    jimHJJ(...as my friend Vito would say "sauszeech his own"...)

  4. #4
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    Are you kidding? Does your mini system have X-material? Harder than steel, superman cannot easily bend it with his bare hands. And in fact it is so hard, it can only be milled with a kryptonite laser. Only the US Army has it in quantity and then for armor plate on the newest tanks. Where does it come from? Now I remember. It comes from outer space and was documented in "The Invisible Ray" a docudrama with Boris Karloff and Bela Lugosi who saw the reflection of an asteroid hitting earth eons ago through a telescope in Karloff's Castle. They had to go to Africa to get it and Lugosi was contaminated and then killed. And what about the mysterious M-material. M means "Mind yer own business and don't ask 'cause we ain't tellin' so keep yer nose out er it! You don't have anything like either X material OR M material so how can you even begin to compare your speakers with his? Get real RL, some got it and some ain't got it.

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    There was a lot of "Y" material involved...

    ...as in "why do we need this?" and "why do you want this"...that sort of thing...

    Maybe the X-material is like that composite deck or trim material that seems to be taking the place of wood in some construction. I'm guessin' if it's a "bear" to use it probably burns out bits and blades with regularity so it may be composed of of harder stuff than that or the bonding agent may gum-up the works. Or maybe like Cool Whip, it was "discovered" by accident...originally it was supposed to be synthetic milk as I recall.

    M-material...HMMMM...super MDF?...or was it a laminate? Hey, I think Norm Abrams was using some new laminate for one of his projects. I'd like to see how many chemists and field-related professionals Wilson has on it's payroll to be able to come up with these mystery building materials.

    jimHJJ(...why do I think probably none...)

  6. #6
    RGA
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    Why do you care what Mrty thinks. The whole point of buying a stereo is to make you happy - this guy needs to spend $125,000.00 on a speaker to make him happy and whatever he spent on the rest of it. If Mrty is happy with a receiver and cheap cables etc etc - not really our business. - And Mrty I know at least thinks the speaker and room matters.

    Skeptic. Well he could have bought the AN E/SE for a mere ~$7k and got more bass - higher frequency extension and also get them matched to within .1db. Then he could pay you $1,000.00 to go to his house(or some other tweaker) and attach on a couple of $500.00 tweeters to pelt the walls of his choice with all the tweeters he wants and look at all the money he would have saved. And he might actually be able to move the speaker without a crane.

  7. #7
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    The indirect firing tweeter sure looks like the Vifa RD2904/70000, in fact it's a dead ringer.
    Could the 13" woofer be Focal 13W8711? Kinda looks like it.

    Now all you need is the 15" woofer, the 7" midranges and the inverted 1" titanium dome and you can build your own. I'll leave the cabines and the X-overs to you. BTW they only require 20 wpc. Hey Qtwerp, got any amps we can borrow for a test run? Howabout something nice in a under $100,000 model?

  8. #8
    RGA
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    Hey Septic - yes you can get an amp starting at $999.00.

  9. #9
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    Hey, that is what this site is for

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Why do you care what Mrty thinks. The whole point of buying a stereo is to make you happy - this guy needs to spend $125,000.00 on a speaker to make him happy and whatever he spent on the rest of it. If Mrty is happy with a receiver and cheap cables etc etc - not really our business. - And Mrty I know at least thinks the speaker and room matters.

    Skeptic. Well he could have bought the AN E/SE for a mere ~$7k and got more bass - higher frequency extension and also get them matched to within .1db. Then he could pay you $1,000.00 to go to his house(or some other tweaker) and attach on a couple of $500.00 tweeters to pelt the walls of his choice with all the tweeters he wants and look at all the money he would have saved. And he might actually be able to move the speaker without a crane.
    Hey,
    I know it is the personal happiness that matters.I just wanted mtry's opinion on this collossal expenditure on amps and source by a guy who apparantly knows what he is doing.If you go through his review, this is very apparant.Just curious...Hey, this what this site is for.For discussing equipment designed to make music !Hey, I respect Mtry's opinions and his very mature stand against ripoffs in the industry.

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    RGA, you seem genuinely disturbed that in the rarified air of the audio lunatic fringe where money has no meaning and all financial prudence is cast aside, Peter Qtwerp has tough competition. Quite frankly, if I had to choose between what this guy bought and what Qtwerp offers in the same price range, I'd buy this guy's setup in a heartbeat. As for more bass, just open the door, crank up that quartet of 13 and 15 inch woofers, and the sucking sound you hear will be the air rushing by to take up the empty space as those 8" bookshelf A/Ns and those kookagami monoblocks get blown out the door.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I doubt his system sounds $125K(++++) better than my recently acquired Onkyo MC35 Tech mini-system...
    Nah, you're right. It's just a bunch of junk.

    rw

  12. #12
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    And it's about time...

    ...that one of youse guys admitted it!

    jimHJJ(...and I never said it was junk...)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...that one of youse guys admitted it!
    My pleasure. I'm lookin' for Hyundai to win next year's F1 constructor's championship too.

    rw

  14. #14
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    Actually, formula cars may...

    ...come at some future date, but for the time being they seem to be more interested on ProRally, Pro-Enduro and Grand Am Street/stock events. I mean did you ever think the names Renault or Honda would be said in the same breath as Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes?

    Hyundai entered US ProRally racing in 1995, lending factory support to the Libra Racing Team managed by John Buffum. Apparently, they have five consecutive Manufacturers Championships(19996-2000) and 34 victories on the SCCA proRally circuit. In 1997 they won 13 out of 16 events in the Pro-Enduro series and in 2001 driver Paul Choiniere won the Mt. Washington Hillclimb("The Climb to the Clouds") being only the second driver in the events' history to exceed 100mph; pretty good, if you know the Mt. Washington Auto Road.

    While it may not be quite as "exotic" as the that of the hand-built and hand-tweeked, it more closely reflects "real-world" conditions. Hmmmm...

    jimHJJ(...P.S. the automotive analogies don't work for any number of reasons...)

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hertz
    . Any thoughts ??

    Yes. It would be an interesting DBT experiment comparing his setup and keeping his speakers, replacing everything else. Other than turntables, it would be a rude awakening indeed, for him, that is.
    Tom Nousaine did just this, not with those speakers but one that is very accurate, measured to be in the NRC anechoic chambers. A rude awakening as well.
    But, maybe, an outside chance, those wires made an audible difference, or those expensive components did. But, perhaps they are designed to be euphonic?
    mtrycrafts

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Why do you care what Mrty thinks. .
    Exactely

    But he will when I am in charge
    mtrycrafts

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hertz
    Hey,
    .I just wanted mtry's opinion on this collossal expenditure on amps and source by a guy who apparantly knows what he is doing. I respect Mtry's opinions and his very mature stand against ripoffs in the industry.
    Thanks for the latter part
    Now, what makes you think he knows what he is doing? 30 years at it? Yes, while it looks impressive, it may not count for beans. Some have faked it for much longer in life.
    mtrycrafts

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I mean did you ever think the names Renault or Honda would be said in the same breath as Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes?
    Naturally. Honda has been successful with both two and four-wheeled world class Grand Prix racing since the mid sixties. BTW, Mercedes hasn't designed or built F1 engines for fifty years. The current crop is entirely engineered by their English acquisition, Ilmor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    While it may not be quite as "exotic" as the that of the hand-built and hand-tweeked, it more closely reflects "real-world" conditions. Hmmmm..
    "Real-world" is an entirely relative concept. What is real world to you is not necessarily real world to me. For our resident ditch digger and others, sadly boomboxes are their real world. They are like Flatlanders trying to comprehend the third dimension. I'm sure glad my daily real world is not limited in that fashion.

    rw

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Yes, while it looks impressive, it may not count for beans.
    Those with zero exposure to such systems will never know, will they?

    rw

  20. #20
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    RGA, you seem genuinely disturbed that in the rarified air of the audio lunatic fringe where money has no meaning and all financial prudence is cast aside, Peter Qtwerp has tough competition. Quite frankly, if I had to choose between what this guy bought and what Qtwerp offers in the same price range, I'd buy this guy's setup in a heartbeat. As for more bass, just open the door, crank up that quartet of 13 and 15 inch woofers, and the sucking sound you hear will be the air rushing by to take up the empty space as those 8" bookshelf A/Ns and those kookagami monoblocks get blown out the door.
    Audio Note sells a complete system relatively cheap - your notion of them being ridiculously priced is erroneous as is your hearing as you presume to know how they sound without hearing them - I'm amazed you can hear them telepathically. They have three speakers under 1k - A preamp, power amp and DAC under 1k each - considering the rest of the market - there is nothing overtly obscene about these products. And while they make obscenely priced products so does McIntosh, Krell, Bryston, B&W, Infinity, Tannoy, Revel, JBL and every other company purporting to be high end including Sony, Denon etc.

    You like to bring AN up in every thread without hearig them - why is that by the way? Those who protest too much are obviously envious - You're afraid that his two ways are the real deal - that would shatter your fragile ego too much.

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    Sorry...

    ...but when I see mention made of Mclaren/Mercedes(as engine supplier) I foolishly believe they are still in the business...

    jimHJJ(...never was one for F1/Indy-type stuff...)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...but when I see mention made of Mclaren/Mercedes(as engine supplier) I foolishly believe they are still in the business...
    Easy mistake for those who don't follow the sport. Kinda like those who believe Michael Moore's half truths as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...never was one for F1/Indy-type stuff...
    To each his own. Is a BAR 006/Honda RA-004E $1M better than my wife's S2000? Ask Jensen Button.

    rw

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    The high end AN speakers (and other equipment for that matter) compared to the high end Wilson X-2 and the rest of that system shows the difference in cultures of Europe and the United States and how that difference is manifested in the way engineers have of approaching a problem This difference is so typical of so many other areas of technology that it's worth mentioning.

    Snell E, J, and K which the corresponding AN speakers were at the very least inspired by were not Peter Snell's best efforts by his own accounts. The K a two way 8" acoustic suspension speaker with a one inch dome tweeter is the lineal descendent of the AR4 manufactured starting around 1960. That was not only not their best effort, it was their least expensive and most modest one but none the less, a good value for the money. 40 years or so, enters Peter Qtwerp who has taken this simple idea and refined it and refined it and refined it until in its ultimate expression, it undoubtedly sells for several tens of thousands of dollars. Similarly E, and J have been tweaked and refined ad nauseum until the most expensive version of E, also a 2 way 8 inch design but ported sells for around $100,000, not quite the $125,000 of the X-2 but up in the same league. What do Wilson's engineers do to solve the same problem? In typical American fashion, they don't give up on refinement and tweaking but they throw brute force at it. Tons and Tons of brute force. Between the 13 and 15 inch woofers, they can rock that guy's house. 2300 pounds of crates, and a whole day for three guys to unpack it and set it up. It bristles with tweeters and midranges also of the highest quality possible (the two reflective Scan Speak tweeters sell in Parts Express catalogue for over $800 a pair alone. I admit that I might be biased. I find it hard to accept that a 2 way 8" pair of bookshelf speakers should sell for $100,000. (I'm not exactly thrilled with the price of the X-2s either but after all, they are made of X and M material (whatever the hell that is.) I'm not saying it isn't a ripofff too, but it looks much more of what I'd expect for a lot of money. Ditto the amplfiers and the rest of the equipment. Does European engineering compete with American engineering? Not in my book, at least most of the time. Just look at the difference between the Mars lander from Britain (the Beagle II) and the American probes now sending back pictures. And how much do you have to spend in Europe for a European car to get all of the features of say a Chevy Caprice well equipped? A lot more, I guarantee it. Yes a top of the line Mercedes is better than Lincoln. But it costs a lot more too. Much much more. When you look at cars of the same price, the American cars are the better value practically every time even if they aren't as reliable (the differences with European cars in reliability have diminished considerably.)

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Those with zero exposure to such systems will never know, will they?

    rw

    And those who are exposed may not know either but are overwhelmed by the price and name stature.
    After all, what is the outcome when all the distraction is hidden and only the sound is judged? They will never know. Illusions are fine too. David make a living from it.
    mtrycrafts

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    And those who are exposed may not know either but are overwhelmed by the price and name stature.
    Don't worry - that is a challenge you will never face.

    rw

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