laid back, warm, forward, etc

[theaudiohobby]

Well, lemme put it to you this way, go listen to a modest stereo setup, B&W 602's, NAD integrated, Parasound cd player...something like that. Connect the speakers with some Monster XP cable on the spool. Listen... Then, take those off, and reconnect with some cable by Transparent or even MIT. Listen again.. You can't argue that it doesn't sound warmer...

that's an exotic experiment , Rather get some good OFC speaker cable of different gauges but equivalent lengths, as you progress through the each gauge size you will not a difference in warmth .

[RGA]

If B&W didn't design the Nautilus, who did?

B&W hired an engineering team to build the model Nautilus (snail or shell shaped speaker). Don't get me wrong it's a great speaker - but it was and is their statement product - don't expect that in their 801 - the N801 isn't nearly as good but then it's not really nearly as expensive.

IMO B&W has for the last while (really since they brought out the CM line) seemigly began to up the marketing and visuals of the product increased the pricing significantly and began to skimp on quality and sound quality. The 700 series has improved over the CDM line in one area and took hits in several other areas - it's like they're treating one area and not really looking at the big picture - so the CDM is less refined so is the 602S3 - but put on Madonna or Gloria Estefan's Latin music or something with a bit of drive and the 705 and 703 would be murdered by the CDM or 600 series. Sure the 602's tweeter isn;t as smooth but music is not isolated bits - it's a whole - the 602's bass and drive will more than counter a smoother top end of the 705 - ie the 602 and the CDM 1NT and 2 SE are way more fun to listen to to me. (others of course like the 705 better no doubt).

[Geoffcin]

B&W hired an engineering team to build the model Nautilus (snail or shell shaped speaker).

Enquiring minds want to know?

[RGA]

I can no longer find the link - this was on a forum about 6 months to a year ago(and I forget the name of the organization (they were not speaker makers interestingly) - but I visit several forums and i didn't save the link in my favorites because I didn't think it was that important. So if you wish by all means ignore my comment. Might have been a thread on AA but I tried to search - B&W is discussed too much to go through every thread.

[Geoffcin]

I can no longer find the link - this was on a forum about 6 months to a year ago(and I forget the name of the organization (they were not speaker makers interestingly) - but I visit several forums and i didn't save the link in my favorites because I didn't think it was that important. So if you wish by all means ignore my comment. Might have been a thread on AA but I tried to search - B&W is discussed too much to go through every thread.

But it was debunked. Here's some hard proof for you;

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/...del%20Nautilus

The Nautilus is one of the most radical, and difficult to build speakers in the world. The technology they incorporate is not something that a company other than a world class speaker manufacturer could design. It's absurd to think that a company with little knowledge of speaker manufacturing could begin to understand what it takes to make a speaker like this.

[kexodusc]

As much as I like the Nautlius, I feel it necessary to point out that a large component of the DIY community have successfully cloned the Nautilus design, and some have even taken it further.
While it is a great speaker, don't get carried away with the level of technology and sophistication.
Just because it looks awesome, doesn't mean Eienstein built it.

[Geoffcin]

As much as I like the Nautlius, I feel it necessary to point out that a large component of the DIY community have successfully cloned the Nautilus design, and some have even taken it further.
While it is a great speaker, don't get carried away with the level of technology and sophistication.
Just because it looks awesome, doesn't mean Eienstein built it.

I want to see the DIY guys who built the mold for one of these. I'm sure if I did, I would post it up for all to see.

Cloning other peoples tech is one thing, but to design a speaker like this took B&W five years. I'm pretty certain it wasn't as easy as sticking a Seas in a snail shell.

[kexodusc]

ROFLMAO.
My bad...not the snail speakers, the Nautilus 800 series...should have read more of this thread.
Thanks for knocking me back a grade or two on this, Geoff!

I tend to belive the snail design cabinet was actually accomplished rather quickly with the assistance of computer design tools...everything else, the tweaking, production/assembly process, etc, is what probably took so long. Quite often determining the most cost effective method of manufacture, and procurement or design of parts for mass production is the longest part of the development stage.

To save some face, I can say Organic Cabinet design has it's own little cliq in the DIY world. I've seen some impressive nohr clones and that Vassen egg shaped clone. Actually MCM, a guy who frequents the ar.com diy board has done some good organic shaped work too...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attac...amp=1070388961

I've even heard of attempts at the snail using CNC machinery etc.
And yes, cloning is often much easier than designing. FYI, I haven't heard any of these, so they might sound like crap?

I'll try to find a link to the Statue of Liberty speakers some guy built too.

[RGA]

Regardless the speaker sounds excellent - but sticking a SEAS woofer in a box can work - I think the AN E/SEC is a better sounding speaker than than the Model Nautilus - of course that may be due to the fact that the AN E/SEC can be driven by SETs while the Nautilus is forced to be stuck with Solid State amplification.

Though I'd be happy to own the Nautilus. A lot of designers of products however can move from what they WERE doing into speaker design - Monster cable had some nuclear physicist as their designer. I don;t really see where you debunked it. B&W clearly is building the speaker - but that doesn't mean they didn;t hire an external design team to come in and design this platform as contractors and then leave.

I only wish the other Nautilus series came up to something resmbling this level of sound quality - they don't IMO.

[kexodusc]

the AN E/SEC vs. the Nautilus...hmm, that'd be a tough one...I'd take the AN E/SEC too I think.
Though I'd love to own either.

I'd put Dr. D'Appolito's SEAS Custom Thor T-Lines up with them too, though...in a heartbeat.
And you could buy a Ferrari for the cost a pair of all 3.

I'll say this about B&W...I cannot think of any other speaker company that is so competitive in just about ever price category available. Most companies seem to have real strengths at a certain level of price/performance, B&W just seems to be good at everything IMO.

[Geoffcin]

ROFLMAO.
My bad...not the snail speakers, the Nautilus 800 series...should have read more of this thread.
Thanks for knocking me back a grade or two on this, Geoff!

I tend to belive the snail design cabinet was actually accomplished rather quickly with the assistance of computer design tools...everything else, the tweaking, production/assembly process, etc, is what probably took so long. Quite often determining the most cost effective method of manufacture, and procurement or design of parts for mass production is the longest part of the development stage.

To save some face, I can say Organic Cabinet design has it's own little cliq in the DIY world. I've seen some impressive nohr clones and that Vassen egg shaped clone. Actually MCM, a guy who frequents the ar.com diy board has done some good organic shaped work too...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attac...amp=1070388961

I've even heard of attempts at the snail using CNC machinery etc.
And yes, cloning is often much easier than designing. FYI, I haven't heard any of these, so they might sound like crap?

I'll try to find a link to the Statue of Liberty speakers some guy built too.

And I could easily make the snail mold on my big 5 axis gantry mill, but it would cost about $150k for programming & machine time with about 18 weeks lead time. A little less if you can provide me a CATIA solid model. When you take this into account, and the fact that all the other components of this speaker had to be designed, manufactured, tested, and most likely revised, it could easily strech out to several years before a good working prototype is complete. My guess is that they have at least a cool million into R&D in these before anyone ever even got to hear one.

[Geoffcin]

To save some face, I can say Organic Cabinet design has it's own little cliq in the DIY world. I've seen some impressive nohr clones and that Vassen egg shaped clone. Actually MCM, a guy who frequents the ar.com diy board has done some good organic shaped work too...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attac...amp=1070388961

I've even heard of attempts at the snail using CNC machinery etc.
And yes, cloning is often much easier than designing. FYI, I haven't heard any of these, so they might sound like crap?

I'll try to find a link to the Statue of Liberty speakers some guy built too.

These guys are pushing the limits with the readily available tech.

Guys like Anthony Gallo started out like this; hey the guy even sold his car to finance his obsession! My PS Audio gear, while now one of the major movers & shakers in the industry, started out as a couple of guys burning thier fingers soldering up DIY Phono Stages by hand. While I wouldn't own any of the stuff if it didn't kick ass, the fact that these guys started out as obsessed DIY tinkerers says a lot about what it take to make a statment in this industry.

[kexodusc]

The best part about the DIY thing, is that it really teaches you alot about what you're paying for in a speaker. Especially for the non-exotic speakers. It's definitely NOT rocket-science, and it becomes funny when you read decade old ideas being heralded as breakthrough technology (ahem...Bose).
I think the DIY thing could easily be the next "big thing" in Home Theatre/Audio gear. Reason being, for the most part, DIY offers an absolutely incredible value to most people. By most people, I mean those of us who will never justify spending more than $8000 on a pair of speakers.

More and more kits are being made available using the same or better drivers (or drivers that proprietary drivers built in-house by companies have copied and bastardized) crossover components, and better cabinetry than you find in alot of speakers.

Problem is, like anything else in audio, the diminishing returns rule still applies. The widely available speaker and sub kits are excellent starters. I'd fell comfortable saying that a decent DIY sub kit would cost you double commercially to reach that level of performance, and speaker kits are usually performing at a level 1/3 or 1/4 their commercial counterparts...higher if you can build your own cabinets and crossovers. Case in point, AR.Com's own DIY's by Ed Frias. These things smoke my Studio 40's and Wharfedale Emerald 93's. And they were built for about 1/4 or 1/5th the price. If I bought pre-fab enclosures, they would have been a bit uglier, and would have been built at only 1/3 the price...but that's splitting hairs...and there are kits out there that are better, I'm sure.

But like anything, you hit a plateau. That is, Kits seem to stop being offered around the $1500 range...at this point you have to build your own cabinets, and crossovers. This forces people to learn and invest a lot of time, and money in tools, or be happy with what they have. If someone doesn't have a workshop already, the value is probably diminished.

The internet has really replaced the old Radio Shack magazines, and local DIY clubs/seminars that existed until the 90's. I've learned more about speakers in the last year than I did the previous 12 years (my length of time owning decent equipment).

I've seen some guys build speakers that are absolutely incredible...some have invested over 10K into them...but in order for these guys to sell them commercially, they'd almost have to charge 50K or so to compensate for the time, materials, etc...

[theaudiohobby]

I've seen some guys build speakers that are absolutely incredible...some have invested over 10K into them...but in order for these guys to sell them commercially, they'd almost have to charge 50K or so to compensate for the time, materials, etc...

I suppose therein lies the rub..when one begins to move away from traditional cabinets and drivers, the costs of DIYconstruction rises considerably as the ability to mass produce such materials reduces costs quite considerably. The last time I did a comparison of speakers, the biggest weakness that the traditional speakers had was their cabinet, I was shocked at the cabinet resonances that I was able to excite with the right tones and music and their deleterious effects on the sound. By accident, I noticed that I have moved more exotic designs, while I have heard a couple of traditional designs that I like..it will cost mucho $$$ to build something like the Gallo Reference 3 or the ELAC 330 as a DIY design

[kexodusc]

Well, labor/time compensation is a huge component of cost in speakers too. When looking at a competent commercial speaker of say, $2000, many people probably don't have have $2000 to spend, but have $500 to spend and 20-40 hours of time, especially if they enjoy working on the project...I know I did. Pressumably audio-enthusiasts have time available for the hobby (or why be into audio at all?).
I really applaud designers like Adire, Audax and Audio Note who have moved back to offering speakers in kit form in order to deliver the same performance in a more cost-effective package. Designing a kit easy enough for the average person to assemble takes a bit of work...the instructions have to be adequate, you have to assume the tools (ie: soldering equipment, saws, etc) that an average person would have access too.
There's no denying that computers have really taken the DIY speaker world well out of the 1980's into a more advanced state, too. Today people can download software to quickly design cabinets and crossovers that will customize their systems in a fraction of the time the old pen-and-paper-trial-and-error method could. Same with figuring out how one driver will work with another.
And the DIY hobby is one place where the internet is actually being used to its potential.

[theaudiohobby]

Designing a kit easy enough for the average person to assemble takes a bit of work...the instructions have to be adequate, you have to assume the tools (ie: soldering equipment, saws, etc) that an average person would have access too.
There's no denying that computers have really taken the DIY speaker world well out of the 1980's into a more advanced state, too. Today people can download software to quickly design cabinets and crossovers that will customize their systems in a fraction of the time the old pen-and-paper-trial-and-error method could. Same with figuring out how one driver will work with another.
And the DIY hobby is one place where the internet is actually being used to its potential.

Anyone who can design and build a good loudspeaker is not an average person, The internet has made made very useful information available to the DIY audio enthusiasts, but building kits and such like along with the requisite skills of soldering, sawing etc are specialist skills and some folks will be much better at it than others. Loudspeaker kits that come with all the parts inc. the cabinet are probably the easiest to tackle but even that is beyond what a lot of folk are willing to undertake who would rather just go into a store and buy a finished product. However if one has the skills or is willing to develop such skills (by practice) then I agree an audio enthusiast can save a mint building their own.

[kexodusc]

Hmm, yeah, I probably take for granted the fact that I can solder, work with wood etc...But I'm no wiz by any means...if you can change a tire, you can probably assemble a speaker kit.
Some kits are easier to assemble than DVD players are to setup though. And if I didn't already have a soldering iron, table saw, router etc, it'd be a bit more difficult as well.

I don't build my own sofas and beds though...I guess I could liken it to that.

[theaudiohobby]

Some kits are easier to assemble than DVD players are to setup though. And if I didn't already have a soldering iron, table saw, router etc, it'd be a bit more difficult as well.

Which kits are the goods ones, I saw some at Parts connexion, but was not sure of their quality.

I don't build my own sofas and beds though...I guess I could liken it to that.

but, at least you can build you own speakers .

[kexodusc]

Never been to Parts connexion, buts Parts Express, Madisound, and Speaker City have some excellent kits at various price points.
You can also find plenty of popular and proven, inexpensive designs on various DIY dedicated webpages complete with parts list. That allows you to buy from several vendors.

Like anything, I'm sure there's a few sketchy diy speaker kits out there too, but you don't hear much praise about them in the internet community, so I'm not sure what they might be.

A few years back I was such a skeptic about DIY possibilities, mainly because I hadn't heard many DIY speakers at all and just assumed it'd be too hard for someone to pull off. But I'm a musician, and I've met many a person who built their own guitar/bass amp, PA loudspeaker etc...so why not a stereo loudspeaker?
Hell, I built my last 2 computers out of quality parts...and acheived better performance at a far lower price than what HP or Dell could offer me...in fact those companies just used the same parts I did for the most part. Speakers kits aren't really that much different when you think about it...

[theaudiohobby]

Hell, I built my last 2 computers out of quality parts...and acheived better performance at a far lower price than what HP or Dell could offer me...in fact those companies just used the same parts I did for the most part. Speakers kits aren't really that much different when you think about it...

I agree with you there, I just acquired Sugden A21 for fun to try out with Audio Note K that I have lying around, however I am thinking that this might be a good excuse to dump the K model and invest in a HE speaker, which companies market reasonably priced HE models.