The Insanity of Marketing Disguised as Science in Loudspeakers

His main argument about relying on the mega corporations to be HONEST is of course true. I never quite get why someone who calls him or herself objective can't see a major MAJOR MAJOR conflict of interest. Our speakers are better than yours because WE did a blind test using people WE trained (ahem if they're not just employees) and WE ran the test (whaaat that's not double blind) and WE came to the conclusion that OUR speakers are better than OTHER companies. Whaaat. And the objective person says - oh of course I trust you because you're a billion dollar company (want more market share) and you have no reason (big profit) to be dishonest (big profit).

The article

The Insanity of Marketing Disguised as Science in Loudspeakers — Reviews and News from Audioholics

Not disagreeing but another thing to consider big companies have more money for R&D. Several trade offs both ways.

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Not disagreeing but another thing to consider big companies have more money for R&D. Several trade offs both ways.

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That's true - let's see the accountant's books on how much they spend on R&D versus marketing verified by an independent auditor.

Bose has more money than anyone for R&D. Is that where it's being spent? Marketing me thinks.

OK- Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutley.
The same is true for money.
Who do you trust?
My FIL said "Don't trust anybody." This worked for me.
But it is true that as the opportunities to clip a little more off of every person/item sold/etc. is combined with more people/items sold/etc. more clipping will occur. I think there is a word for this. Let me think......

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Originally Posted by RGA

That's true - let's see the accountant's books on how much they spend on R&D versus marketing verified by an independent auditor.

Bose has more money than anyone for R&D. Is that where it's being spent? Marketing me thinks.

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But, ultimately, Bose has a very satisfied client base. If not, word of mouth would have put them out of business years ago. As it is, most of their recommendations come from someone seeing it at a friends house.

If their view of marketing is to get input so R&D can continue desigining products that continue to please their target market, then I'd say it's money well spent.

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Originally Posted by markw

But, ultimately, Bose has a very satisfied client base.

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True but it's an ignorant client base - or a client base that has not heard "good" products.

Arguably the same people who spend $3 for a bottle of water. It must be better - it costs more and the advertising tells us it's better and Jennifer Aniston drinks it.

There is no doubt in my mind, that the title, "Master of Marketing" goes to Bose. From the very start, with the original 901 "Direct-reflecting" loudspeaker, Bose has been consistent with its "story," and when there were once loads of audio retailers, Bose, more than any other manufacturer in the business - ever - supplied their dealers with more "Point of Purchase" (P.O.P., as it was referred to in the industry) material than any other loudspeaker manufacturer.

In order to be a Bose dealer, the retailer had to dedicate an entire wall of his store exclusively to Bose, but then in return, Bose provided that dealers with an incredible array of P.O.P. as well as all but unlimited factory support, including the "Bose Wagon," which was a Winebago-type vehicle, parked in the dealer's parking lot, manned by Bose personnel, loaded with "scientific" evidence and demonstrations of Bose's claimed superiority, and technical expertise.

Bose told the same story over and over, and supported any dealer who went along with it. That's "Marketing 101" as it never was, or has been since. Unfortunately, brilliant marketing doesn't make a good product. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a Bose supporter anywhere on audioreview.com.

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Originally Posted by RGA

True but it's an ignorant client base - or a client base that has not heard "good" products.

Arguably the same people who spend $3 for a bottle of water. It must be better - it costs more and the advertising tells us it's better and Jennifer Aniston drinks it.

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Like most in this hobby, they think it's all about the sound. It isn't. Some people have other priorities.

Some people want a tiny, good lking, unobtrusive, easy to conceal, easy to connect, and easy to use, appliance that fills their living space with good (to their ears) music and don't mind pating a premium for it. Like it or not, Bose surely has hit the mark with those that want that.

Now, if they are that bad, the question many should be asking is why has no other company been able to take over their market?

Markw has an excellent point: "Some people [buyers] have other priorities."

We can become rather arrogant that our perspective on a subject is the only valid or credible one. Bose appeals to those who want pleasant sound, an easy-to-operate appliance that looks nice and is unobtrusive.

While the WAF (wife acceptance factor) is often the basis for audio humor, it's a real effect. I'd lay a solid bet that the vast majority of people who want to hear music in their home do not want a large array of equipment on display. They get everything they need from Bose products and they get it without having to think very hard.

Markw also makes the other excellent point that if Bose is that bad, why haven't they been overtaken by another company in the past 50 years? The answer is that the audiophile definition of "bad" is not the one used by most buyers.

Face reality - the people who frequent discussion forums like this one are a minority, and a small one at that. ;-)

Only a total fraking moron would call what I said snobbery - only bnrainless retards could possibly not be able to determine that some objects in existence in the world of retail sales do in fact represent a "higher" or "lower" level of quality. A Bentley is a better car than Ford Fiesta - and that is an objective fact and only a fraking idiot with a brain the size of a pea would argue against that point.

It is not snobbery to say that a Bently is a better a car than a Fiesta when it very clearly is.

I have met many Bose owners in my time and every single discussion with every single one of them I ask a question that goes something like this - have you heard speakers from - and I mention about 10 companies. They say "never heard of them."

And I'm not picking small makers like Audio Note - I am saying names like Magnepan, B&W, PMC, Harbeth, Tannoy, Wharfedale. Companies that have been around 30-60 years. That is ignorance of what is available.

Ignorance doesn't mean stupid - it simply means the person didn't look into the subject of what he/she was purchasing. Perhaps because they didn't care enough to bother - perhaps because of the non-sonic reasons to buy brand, looks, WAF whatever.

Not sure I really understand the argument against what I have said - Bose is purchased by non audiophiles for non sound quality reasons. That is the argument being made to me correct? Audiophiles - people who care about audio quality do not buy Bose because the sound quality is poor in relation to what audiophiles who do care about sound quality know it to be sonically deficient. That also isn't snobbery - it's simply a fact. Food critics don't gobble up big macs daily either. I suppose Michelin star chefs could try and compete with "McBarf and Bag-It" but they are passionate about food and not everything in their life revolves around collecting the largest sum of money. They have a passion about making the best food. It is not snobbery to say that eating a $30 hamburger using the finest meat and ingredients cooked by a world class chef is better than a McDonald's Big Mac and that if the guy eating the Big Mac daily and has NEVER had a burger that cost more than $5 is ignorant of what a truly exceptional burger can taste like.

emaidel points out exactly the marketing ploy of Bose - A&B Sound a big box chain in Canada sold Bose and thei'r demand was that Bose not be in any side by side shootouts with other gear - they had their own independent space (all Bose) separate from everything else. No one is knocking the sales success of McDonalds or Bose - they sell to people who don;t care or can;'t afford better or for non-quality reasons for purchase. Although McDonald's doesn't really pretend to be anything more than it is and the prices are low enough that no one is expecting anything great - just consistency. Bose on the other hand purports to be more than it is and consumers think they're buying the "best." And the prices are higher than their quality. Again - generally accepted facts by virtually every audiophile who takes this stuff remotely seriously.

As for overtaking the market - that is no small feat and that applies to any industry - those who get there first establish the market. High end audio manufacturers can't defeat Bose because they are spending their time and money on quality drivers and loudspeaker design - not pretending that the acoustimass which is missing large gaps in the frequency band, is producing great sound with $1 tweeters in a cube and a cheap bass unit that can hardly be called a "subwoofer." To get that market you would have to design a similar look and then a herculean task to get that look to sound good. Then you'd have to build a name brand following.

In and out burger is a much better fast food burger joint than McDonalds. But it's never ever going to catch or be able to beat McDonalds no matter how good the food is and no matter how many people rave about it. Kids want the clown - mommy I want to see Ronald. No Ronald no purple thing no happy meal the kid screams - even if mommy and daddy want the fresh ingredients of guys chopping lettuce and onions over McDonalds that takes a package of dehydrated onions in a paper package and sticks it in water for 2 hours to let the onions "expand" (I know I worked at McDonalds for 3 years).

No one that hears high quality audio and who cares about music reproduction buys Bose. That is not to say that all Bose owners don't care - some do - but they got sucked into thinking it was great without doing their due diligence.

The original article incidentally wasn't talking about Bose - it was more than likely talking about Harman.International

Goodness, RGA, the discussion seems to have struck a raw nerve for you.

For most people, Bose is just another big company that has figured out a successful strategy. There are plenty of alternatives for anyone who chooses another route.

Glad you were able to vent - hope it relieved some angst.

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Originally Posted by RGA

Only a total fraking moron would call what I said snobbery - only bnrainless retards could possibly not be able to determine that some objects in existence in the world of retail sales do in fact represent a "higher" or "lower" level of quality. A Bentley is a better car than Ford Fiesta - and that is an objective fact and only a fraking idiot with a brain the size of a pea would argue against that point.

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Hey, you're the one that brought up Bose to sneer at, nobody else. I just pointed out that for some people it's just what the doctor ordered and they ae very, very happy and don't feel ripped off.

It's too bad your bloated ego can't accept the fact that not everyone think like you. ..And I thank God for that.

For most sane people, all the "quality" they need is for an object they purchased for what they percieve to be a fair price deliver the goods they expect for a long time with no problems.

I'd say Bose delivers that in spades. So would their customers. That's why they have so many and get more each day.

Not everyone needs a Bentley. Aside from a snobbish Country Club or something similar where making impressions on similarly shallow people congregate are all important, where can a Bentley go that a Ford can't?

Some people are very happy with their Fords which, according to recent surveys, have come along way in the past few years. Not everyone wants or needs a Bentley. Maybe they are secure in themselves that they don't feel the need to impress others with an expensive car and are happy with what they have. Their egos aren't dependent on what they own and impressing others, like some here.

Heck, one could buy several Fords for every Bentley and have a stable of spares in case the Bentley needed service, which I'm pretty sure can't be bone by any gas station.. Me, I prefer Hyundai.

That you don't agree with their tastes and look down your long, pointed nose at them is pure snobbery in it's rawest form, but that's not news to any of us here.

Unfortunately everything needs to be spelled out. Usually to the Evolution isn't real the earth is 5000 year old, I'm wearing magic underwear, I'm getting 72 virgins in death types. So let's spell it out ---

Number 1;

the point - underline the point - the point is the thing in which is being discussed not something you invent from your own mind. Have to clarify that too it would seem.

1a - Being happy with a Bose or being happy with a Ford or being happy with a McDonald's Big Mac has absolutely ZERO - I spell it out for the Thick - ZERO to do with what I said - ZERO to do with any and every and all points I made. UNDERSTAND !! ZERO. Being HAPPY has NOTHING (that means ZERO) to do with any and all points made.

I am sure you don't get it - but that is why the term "Ignorance is Bliss" was coined. Bliss is a fancy word for "HAPPY" see I underlined the two words Bliss and Happy to help out.

One can be Ignorant and be completely happy - people are happy to believe all sorts of wrong things - like they're happy that Santa is watching everything they do and judging them and if they are GOOD they will get to go to heaven (err I mean get a present) or that the earth is 5000 years old and evolution is fake and dinosaur bones are a "test of faith" Lots of those dimwits are HAPPY or BLISSFUL.

Part 2: No one said you HAD TO HAVE a Bently - it is not about "me too" products - it is simply recognizing "truths" that A is better than B when it IS a FACT. Again the Evolution isn't real, earth is 5000 year old thick F-tards are not able to accept truth or facts so they change the focus of discussions to something else "FEELINGS" and create "STRAWMAN" arguments like "Not everyone needs a Bently" to be happy. Faith (I mean FEELINGS) has nothing to do with accepting facts or truths. The guy who owns a Bently may be a snob, I may be jealous, I may hate all rich people and yadda yadda yadda - but that has NOTHING - ZERO - to do with the FACT that the actual car is a better car than a Fiesta or Escort (I owned an Escort - never owned a Bentley)

The fact that I will likely NEVER be able to afford a Bentley and my last car was a KIA (yes a KIA) doesn't mean I can't respect the fact that a Bentley is a terrific automobile and much better than my Kia or my Ford Escort or my GM Grand Am. I am not a snob when I am getting out of my KIA and I say to the guy who owns a Bentley - "Wow that is a great car you have there it's much better than MY KIA." It's also not being a snob if the Bentley owner on a car board says that a Bentley is better than a Kia. It doesn't become snobbery simply because of which owner is discussing the cars.


No not everyone needs a million dollar car but we don't have to bury our head in the sand and not at the very LEAST acknowledge that "Bentley is a better car than a Ford Festiva." Or that a burger from a Michelin star restaurant is better than a Big Mac, or that musicianship required for classical music is higher than is required for a rock band, or that a top of the line Panasanoc 50 inch Plasma TV is better than uncle Bill's 12inch black and white tube TV to watch Raiders of the Lost Ark on. No one is being mean to Uncle Bill. If Uncle Bill believes that nothing is better than his 12 inch B&W TV then we take Uncle Bill from his cave and we bring him to the store and say - now watch Raiders on this Uncle Bill and tell me what you think. Bill is amazed and will no longer say his 12 inch B&W TV is the best in the world because he was "edu ma cated" on what is possible with moving pictures technology.

He had a belief system that he held for years until he was "exposed" to something much better.

Must spell out analogy - must try to edu-ma-cate
- The Bose owner typically have no exposure to what is better - in many places Bose has their own store - not just a "wall" so no comparison can be made to anything else. The B&W 12 inch TV looks AMAZING when all you have to compare is a blank wall. No one is looking down on Bill. Bill's a smart enough uncle - when brought out of the cave and shown the light (Panasonic Plasma) Bill like anyone else is amazed by the superior quality of the Panasonic - never again will Bill see the world of TV in the same way as he did before. Bill is no longer Ignorant. Even if he can't afford the Plasma and has to keep watching his 12 inch B&W - he is now smart enough to realize that his 12 inch B&W isn't the "BEST"


Part 3

No one is looking down on Bose owners - they/we/I may look down on Bose for duping people into spending "MORE" than they should for inferior products with advertising that is truly shocking and wrong (like Fox News). Bose incidentally is not some "good value for a cheap price company" - no one picks on Sony for selling $100 loudspeakers at Wal-Mart for selling $19 DVD players. The reason they/we/I pick on Bose and I do it less than most is because people are being duped into "believing" stuff that isn't true (ahem evolution is fake, dinosaur bones are a test of faith, the earth is 5000 years old, underwear is magic, you will get virgins when you die BS) . Attacking ignorance isn't being a snob - it's the only war worth attacking since it leads to less actual war.

What isn't true is that Bose is the best. It may not in fact be the worst just like the Big Mac probably isn't the worst or that Bill's B&W TV is the worst, but it isn't the best. You may BELIEVE the Big Mac is the Best or Bose is the best or that Bill's TV is the best - and you may be 100% completely happy in the belief that it is the best - you may like eating Big Macs your whole entire life - and all your friends can think so too (just like all your friends can believe in magic underwear and you'll get 72 virgins when you die) and you can all love listening to Bose believing it's the best bang for the dollar. = BLISS. (lots of people all believing the same thing doesn't make it true. There is no democracy in facts and truth. A fact doesn't care whether you believe in it or not. The earth revolves around the Sun and always has whether 99.99% of the population read a book and believed the opposite didn't change the fact that the earth revolved around the sun.

There is better than Bose - there is better than the Big Mac, there is better than the Ford Festiva, Evolution is a fact, the earth is round and more than a billion years old - whether you choose to accept fact or choose to be "thick" is entirely up to you.

When a class of 30 children are 6 years old their favorite hamburger might be Hamburglar's hamburger at Mcdonalds. When they "experience more life" and "expose themselves to different burgers" a high percentage of those children soon discover there is more to the world than McDonalds - just as numerous Bose owners often eventually do. And some of them learn to read more than one book too - and become less ignorant to the world around them and realize that Santa isn't real, and you're not getting 72 virgins when you die - and Magic Underwear isn't real, and they learn what evolution is and even try to understand it rather than take what some guy in black tells them.

Attacking ignorance isn't being a snob. Education isn't "evil doing" or being mean. It's getting people to see errors and correct them. If they still choose to eat a Big Mac or buy Bose that is perfectly fine. But at least they KNOW that the Big Mac or BOSE isn't the BEST burger or speaker on the planet - I've had better burgers and still occasionally have a Big Mac - because it's cheap and I know that from my experience working there that their cleanliness standards are generally higher than other fast food chains (depending on the management of the store but at least they have written clear standards and all employees are trained. So the chances are better. But when I suck down that Big Mac the reason isn't because I think it's the "best."

Wow, the more you write the more you make my point.

Yeah, you picked on Bose and it's owners because you deem as unworthy of being able to decide for themselves what's best for them. Funny, there's a lot of happy Bose owners out there and, gues what? A lot of them are big boys and girls who have lead a much more fufilling life than you have so far.

You need a group to feel superior to and you select them because, on an audio forum, happy Bose owners make an easy target.

It's too bad they are perfectly happy with their under-performing but over-satisfying product for it's combination of features they you consider inconsequential,

inda like Rolex owners. Heck, Rolex doesn't even keep as accurate time as a Timex or Casio but, hey, the snobs like showing them off and itf it makes them happy but, hey, who am I to piss in their cornflakes.

Now, shake off the last few drops, stuff it in your pants, and zip up.

...snob, but not man enough to admit it, even to yourdself

I would rather have my Mini Cooper than a Bentley. I have only had four cars in 50 years: a 1957 Chevy, a 1970 BMW, a 1994 Miata, and a 2007 Mini convertible. I have only had three speakers in my main system: an AR SP 3a, a Fulton J, and the Dunlavy SCIV. I am still using my decades old Audio Research Sp8 preamp (which has a phono unit) and an Audio Research D70 amp to power the Fulton and Dunlavy speakers. The only rooms that came even close to my system (yes, of course, IMO) at the 2010 and 2011 CASs were the Teresonic, the Audio Note, the Sonist, and the Usher. BTW, it IS interesting that three of these rooms were using an SET amp!

Now I understand Mark that you don't read very well and that's ok - I am used to teaching Special Needs students and realize you need extra special help.

This has nothing to do with attacking Bose owners. I do not quite get your entire system of reading and what you choose to pull out of posts but it's pure strawman.

How did I pick on Bose owner's ability to decide for themselves? How does anyone do that? Person A walks into store and is ready to buy a Bose. Seems to me they can make that decision no?

If audiophiles say to them that gee "did you know about product B for 1/8 the price that is "objectively" and "subjectively" considered to be a much superior product."

So the mere mention of this is being a snob? This is a yes or no answer - if your answer is Yes - you're a moron. If the answer is no - then you agree with me.

You make the assumption that all Bose owners are blindly led like sheep to believe the marketing. In your opinion, their marketing makes them buy a product they don't want. As I tried to point out, but was lost on you, is that speakers and sound is the least of what Bose offers. It offers other niceties they like such as style, size, convenience, the promise of a simpler lifestyls, etc, but that seems to have been lost on you. ...allof which they apparantly deliver.

Apparant;y, they do waht wha tBose promises ...and delivers.

Add to the fact that many Bose products are sold by people seeing and hearing a Bose product at a friend's house and being summarily impressed. So, they've seen the product. They have heard the product, They like the product. They want to buy the product. The product must be what they want. They have a fairly liberal return policy, at least the equal of many of your approved products and yet it doean't seem to be costing them any sales. Why is that?

The fact that their marketing department reinforces ther satisfaction simply means they are doing a fine job.

The fact that you think that Bose "lies" to it's customers, forces them to buy something you don't approve of, and doesn't deserve it's success shows you resent so many people actually liking the prodict and it pisses you off no end that not everyone believes what you believe and likes what you like and you hold them beneath contempt.

Face it, you don't think anyone that doesn't agree with you has any value and you've shown that here many, many times.

But, I was wrong before, It's not the lack of oxygen from the high altitude that drives your madness. It's from breathing the methane being produced from where your head is inserted.

The majority who buy Bose view audio equipment as a necessary appliance. These are the same people that buy bland Chevy Impalas and Toyota Camrys because they see a car as nothing more than simply mandatory for their day-to-day, and to quote the culmination of Mark's argument, have other priorities in mind when buying. I don't disagree with you RGA, I think the sheeple could do a lot better than Bose- like the Anthony Gallo spheres, but Bose wins in the marketing department. Yes, I believe it to be a bit deceiving of an audio company to engineer their signature house sound on the basis of resonance (i.e. filling your house with pleasant sound) and call it accurate reproduction. However, if I have to credit Bose for one feature of their manufacturing, it's that their entire line is just about bulletproof reliable and lasts for decades without issues. This keeps 'em coming back.

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Originally Posted by markw

You make the assumption that all Bose owners are blindly led like sheep to believe the marketing. In your opinion, their marketing makes them buy a product they don't want. As I tried to point out, but was lost on you, is that speakers and sound is the least of what Bose offers. It offers other niceties they like such as style, size, convenience, the promise of a simpler lifestyls, etc, but that seems to have been lost on you. ...allof which they apparantly deliver.

Apparant;y, they do waht wha tBose promises ...and delivers.

Add to the fact that many Bose products are sold by people seeing and hearing a Bose product at a friend's house and being summarily impressed. So, they've seen the product. They have heard the product, They like the product. They want to buy the product. The product must be what they want. They have a fairly liberal return policy, at least the equal of many of your approved products and yet it doean't seem to be costing them any sales. Why is that?

The fact that their marketing department reinforces ther satisfaction simply means they are doing a fine job.

The fact that you think that Bose "lies" to it's customers, forces them to buy something you don't approve of, and doesn't deserve it's success shows you resent so many people actually liking the prodict and it pisses you off no end that not everyone believes what you believe and likes what you like and you hold them beneath contempt.

Face it, you don't think anyone that doesn't agree with you has any value and you've shown that here many, many times.

But, I was wrong before, It's not the lack of oxygen from the high altitude that drives your madness. It's from breathing the methane being produced from where your head is inserted.

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This urinating contest is displaying some pretty respectable skills, but I should warn you. Armed with nothing but a pitcher of beer, my bladder, and my wee wee, I can write my name in the snow in cursive,

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Originally Posted by cackalacky

This urinating contest is displaying some pretty respectable skills, but I should warn you. Armed with nothing but a pitcher of beer, my bladder, and my wee wee, I can write my name in the snow in cursive,

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If that's all you've got to add to the subject under discussion, I'd say you've pretty much proven that by example.

Bose owners are blindly led like sheep to believe the marketing. In your opinion, their marketing makes them buy a product they don't want. As I tried to point out, but was lost on you, is that speakers and sound is the least of what Bose offers. It offers other niceties they like such as style, size, convenience, the promise of a simpler lifestyls, etc, but that seems to have been lost on you

Heavy marketing has the goal to get people to buy something without thinking about it too much. If people did the marketing is less likely to work on them.

You are arguing with me on things we agree upon so I don't get why you argue points as if I don't agree on them (that's also a strawman).

I agree with you - people who buy BOSE do it for a whole bunch of reasons unrelated to sound quality "style, size, convenience, the promise of a simpler lifestyles"

Yes that is why most people buy Bose and B&O. Commercial Electronics in Vancouver (maybe the largest audio dealer in BC) sold B&O and may still. I overheard the salesman - and it went something like this - this is a terrific style product that looks futuristic and is easy to use. If you remember B&O they had those CD players where you could see 5-6 CDs and you would wave your hand across the front and it would open. They were "cool" they had neat lights and the speakers were very attractive flat designs.

This is a high end dealer. The customer asked him "how do they sound?" He replied - it sounds ok but doesn't compete with the less costly products we sell - but this is about home decor. This saleman won surf-boards and vacations from B&O as the top selling salesman of the brand in the country because he wasn't implying that they were the best sounding systems in the world. People don't like being lied to.

So I get why people would want B&O or Bose. They score high on those marks.

However this is an audiophile forum which discusses audiophile quality products - B&O and Bose are not geared to the posters who are interested in very high quality music reproduction. As you noted - people are buying Bose for all those other reasons.

I am not insulting anyone who chooses to buy those products for those reasons. However it is when Bose advertises that the Wave radio can replace full surround sound systems, or any Big stereo system then that's laughable. The Wave Radio sounds like a glorified Clock radio - because that is what it is. That is marketing deception. And many of the buyers out there really do "believe" it because they have never heard anything better.

It has nothing to do with AGAIN - whether Bose owners are happy campers or not. I am happy with my $99 microwave - it's lasted nearly 20 years and never failed - even fell off the back of a truck and still works great. Nothing but praise for my Danby Microwave. People treat audio gear no differently than they do any other home appliance.

And Bose advertises 1/2 infomercials in the middle of the day along side the home kitchen appliances before or after the Bosemercials.

Nothing wrong with a Wave radio itself - you can hook it up under a kitchen cabinet - it has CD remote wireless can hook up an ipod and it's only $500. There are better less expensive alternatives but they're not that much less money and you can probably sell the Bose for more on the used market. And better alternatives (Boston Acoustics and Cambridge Soundworks, or B&W) - well they're all still glorified clock radios so it's not a huge difference and Bose looks good. Still the Cambridge Soundworks is no worse sounding and is considerably less money Cambridge Soundworks: Table Radios, Stereo Systems, Music Systems, Clock Radios, Sound Systems

But if someone chose a Bose over that I could care less - it is not about what people choose to buy. It's about choosing to buy it for the wrong reason when had you known you would not have. The folks who think Bose sounds the best and then discover that nope they sound pretty bad (once they hear better). If they bought at Commercial Electronics they would be able to hear excellent systems and they'd know they're buying style. Everyone goes in eyes open. No one wants to buy something they're told is the best sound available and 5 months later find out they were rooked. If I was in the market for a $500 clock radio I would try and audition the Bose because it fits a niche few are in. I would not NOT buy it because it's a Bose product.

Recently I've been touting the Cerwin Vega CLS 215 - this is a brand most audiophiles sneer at for being - for being - well - Cerwin Vega. I mean this has been long held to be a poor sounding bass dominant brand. But it's a good speaker at an honest price and it's fun - but it actually sounds good. I have no problem saying so.

In fact Bose had a speaker called the 305 which was a good sounding speaker - it was even recommended in blind sessions in Hi-Fi Choice magazine - so there. And some are reporting the headphones are good.

Like anything else - I am not brand loyal - I am product loyal perhaps - I may like Audio Note but I don't like all the stuff they sell and I don't think all of it represents the best value. And if Bose makes a superior product for the money I'll say so.

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Originally Posted by markw

If that's all you've got to add to the subject under discussion, I'd say you've pretty much proven that by example.

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You've raised the bar too high. Forgive me for not measuring up?

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Originally Posted by RGA

[B]I am not insulting anyone who chooses to buy those products for those reasons. However it is when Bose advertises that the Wave radio can replace full surround sound systems, or any Big stereo system then that's laughable. The Wave Radio sounds like a glorified Clock radio - because that is what it is. That is marketing deception. And many of the buyers out there really do "believe" it because they have never heard anything better.

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No, it's not laughable, except perhaps to you. And, for their target market, the bolded statement is entirely true. There is no deception. Just like a Chevy can replace a Bentley for anyone's transportation purposes, these little plastic boxes produce satisfying sound to them and can replace a big rack of equipment. So, essentially, it serves the same purpose as a rack for their target market for all they care, and they are just as happy. Style, size, and simplicity take precedence over sound for them and they are apparantly willing, and happy, to pay for it.

You might want to look into the word "puffery" and expand your knowledge base a bit.

As for those people you seem to be trying to protect, if they blindly buy into the hype and buy Bose based purely on their advertising without exploring what else is out there, then that's on them, not Bose.

So, stop trying to apply your standards to others. You look like a snob.

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Originally Posted by markw

So, stop trying to apply your standards to others. You look like a snob.

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Thanks but I will do whatever the hell I want. So stop telling me and others (based on YOUR standard of etiquette) what to say and do and how to run their life.

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Originally Posted by RGA

Thanks but I will do whatever the hell I want.

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And so will I..

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Originally Posted by RGA

So stop telling me and others (based on YOUR standard of etiquette) what to say and do and how to run their life.

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I'll say what I want to whomever I want. Paticularly to snobs like you when you get full of yourselves and need an enema. I'll be here to insert it.

And, no JM. I'm not switching sides. :D

TTFN

Yeah it's a shame your inferiority complex has you jealous of anyone who likes the finer things in life. I know it's a shame you can't appreciate quality audio reproduction equipment - anyone who thinks Bose doesn't sound too good is a snob. LOL. An audio equipment reviewer says something is better than Bose - he is an audio snob for saying so - cause Markw's world view is that everything is equal and it's all the same level of quality. Sneer in snobby derision - chortle chortle.

Actually - I can live with being viewed as Audio Snob. Wine critics are Wine Snobs and so too are food critics - and I'm an Audio Critic so the shoe fits I should be happy to wear it. In fact I hold back far too often on my views of audio equipment to placate simpletons in order to not make them feel bad. Perhaps you've inspired me to let loose and call it the way it is.

An "audio reviewer" publicly implies that an entire class of people, (anyone who buys Bose) is sheeple who cannot think for themselves but rather blindly follow the dictates of the big, bad, hypnotic marketing machine. So, whose stroking their ego here?

Who needs to post an article from another website and then inserts his own personal prejudices into the thread and then tries to blame the article?

But he doesn't even have the cojones to come out admit it, but when confronted with it would rather try to deny it by hiding behind a barrage of words that circle around and come right back from where they started Oh , yeah, there's a real paragon of virtue if ever I've seen one.

No, snob. Not everyTHING ie equal, everyONE is, as their personal opinions but, as you've shown over and over again, you don't believe that. Only you and your opinions are worth anything.

Go ahead; let loose. It's hard to hold it in. I see the laxative is working.

The dictionary definition of "snob" is: "one who thinks that money and rank are very important, and has contempt for those he considers inferior." (Webster's New World)

I know many people who are sophisticated and erudite on certain subjects but who show no hint of snobbery. They are happy to share their knowledge with all who ask but understand that others have different priorities that leave them uninterested in a particular issue, be it wine, food, cars, audio or whatever.

So, yes, it is possible to appreciate some objects more than others, but that doesn't mandate that others who don't share that appreciation are inferior.

I would consider it snobbish to think that ALL Bose buyers are ignorant of better brands. SOME are and some aren't. There are those who buy bose for the brand-whore and aethetic appeal. These are the people who I believe RGA is attacking here. I happen to agree with him. Doesn't make me a snob- maybe a bit opinionated. Then you have others who aren't as concerned with accurate sound reproduction as the typical audiophile- those who buy for convenience (large dealer network, ease of installation), WAF, and other reasons not related to accurate reproduction. RGA, you understand this distinction as you stated, but did not make this distinction until later on in the discussion. Somehow this is still evading Mark's needlessly conflagratory argument. But, yes, some people are led to believe that the wave radio can sound like a large "traditional" stereo system. However, whether or not their belief that this is true cannot be determined and truly should not be judged. Maybe there are those who have never seen any of Bose's ads and their wild claims (as I'd see it), who wandered into a Bose outlet and literally believed a bose wave radio to sound just as good, and as big as their old Magnepan setup. It's subjective preference. Maybe they're almost deaf or just guilty of brand lust. I believe both of you to be guilty of generalizing. In Mark's case, the very arrogant comment where he claimed to speak on the behalf of everyone on this forum when he characterized RGA as being snobbish.

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Originally Posted by markw

And so will I..

I'll say what I want to whomever I want. Paticularly to snobs like you when you get full of yourselves and need an enema. I'll be here to insert it.

And, no JM. I'm not switching sides. :D

TTFN

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Wow that is rude and offensive in so many ways.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Wow that is rude and offensive in so many ways.

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It was truly meant in good humor. I'm sorry you didn't see it that way.

All pretty entertaining considering that the referenced article is ONLY someone else opinion and had very little real facts in it. Hardly worth the bandwidth and server space this will take up. Specially from someone who labels himself An Elitist JERK.

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Originally Posted by markw

It was truly meant in good humor. I'm sorry you didn't see it that way.

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I was not even participating in the thread. Wow and you thought it was humorous.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

I was not even participating in the thread. Wow and you thought it was humorous.

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And the whole thread is about going out of your way to offend someone, or a whole group of someones.

Definitely uncalled for, and not a bit funny.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

All pretty entertaining considering that the referenced article is ONLY someone else opinion and had very little real facts in it. Hardly worth the bandwidth and server space this will take up. Specially from someone who labels himself An Elitist JERK.

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And yet was used as a springboard to dig on Bose and those who choose to purchase it. I guess it's like using the "N" word at a KKK meeting since the common belief is that nobody there would object.

And, as for my tag line, you might want to look up the meaning of "irony", as well as the difference between "specially" and "especially".

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Originally Posted by markw

And yet was used as a springboard to dig on Bose and those who choose to purchase it. I guess it's like using the "N" word at a KKK meeting since the common belief is that nobody there would object.

And, as for my tag line, you might want to look up the meaning of "irony", as well as the difference between "specially" and "especially".

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Oh, sorry my grammar and word usage is not up to your elitist standards. You got the point tho. (and I spelled Though incorrectly on purpose because I type all day)

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Originally Posted by markw

And, as for my tag line, you might want to look up the meaning of "irony"

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And we are supposed to believe you are the total opposite of an Elitist and a Jerk? How ironic!

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

I was not even participating in the thread. Wow and you thought it was humorous.

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And, as a moderator, I assumed you were monitoring it. If you want to be offended, feel free, but just know it was not my intent. I'm not going to lose any sleep either way, though.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

And we are supposed to believe you are the total opposite of an Elitist and a Jerk? How ironic!

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Believe whatever you wish. It's probably got no basis in reality anyway.

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Originally Posted by markw

But, ultimately, Bose has a very satisfied client base. If not, word of mouth would have put them out of business years ago

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Wal Mart also has a very large satisfied customer base and all they sell is disposable junk. Cheaply priced junk is what keeps them in business. Can we lump all those consumers into a specific Label? You bet you can. I know plenty of people who will purchase the same cheap ass item and throw it away to get a new one as opposed to doing a little more research and spending a little more money to get a quality item that lasts longer and end up saving money and time.

Bose customers are not much different. They see an Add, they see a Bose store, they see little tiny speakers you can hide from your wife but they DON"T compare a Bose setup to a similarly priced setup that you can piece together because it is just easier to buy the Bose than to do some extra homework. If they did the research and realized that for the same money they could have a better sounding setup, things may be different. But, the majority of humans are just simply lazy.

Bose has OK quality items for the casual listener and good customer service but they sell more because they market more and correctly compared to high end MFGs.

They don't sink squat into R&D, they Market what they have already created well.