The Insanity of Marketing Disguised as Science in Loudspeakers

[RGA]

Bose owners are blindly led like sheep to believe the marketing. In your opinion, their marketing makes them buy a product they don't want. As I tried to point out, but was lost on you, is that speakers and sound is the least of what Bose offers. It offers other niceties they like such as style, size, convenience, the promise of a simpler lifestyls, etc, but that seems to have been lost on you

Heavy marketing has the goal to get people to buy something without thinking about it too much. If people did the marketing is less likely to work on them.

You are arguing with me on things we agree upon so I don't get why you argue points as if I don't agree on them (that's also a strawman).

I agree with you - people who buy BOSE do it for a whole bunch of reasons unrelated to sound quality "style, size, convenience, the promise of a simpler lifestyles"

Yes that is why most people buy Bose and B&O. Commercial Electronics in Vancouver (maybe the largest audio dealer in BC) sold B&O and may still. I overheard the salesman - and it went something like this - this is a terrific style product that looks futuristic and is easy to use. If you remember B&O they had those CD players where you could see 5-6 CDs and you would wave your hand across the front and it would open. They were "cool" they had neat lights and the speakers were very attractive flat designs.

This is a high end dealer. The customer asked him "how do they sound?" He replied - it sounds ok but doesn't compete with the less costly products we sell - but this is about home decor. This saleman won surf-boards and vacations from B&O as the top selling salesman of the brand in the country because he wasn't implying that they were the best sounding systems in the world. People don't like being lied to.

So I get why people would want B&O or Bose. They score high on those marks.

However this is an audiophile forum which discusses audiophile quality products - B&O and Bose are not geared to the posters who are interested in very high quality music reproduction. As you noted - people are buying Bose for all those other reasons.

I am not insulting anyone who chooses to buy those products for those reasons. However it is when Bose advertises that the Wave radio can replace full surround sound systems, or any Big stereo system then that's laughable. The Wave Radio sounds like a glorified Clock radio - because that is what it is. That is marketing deception. And many of the buyers out there really do "believe" it because they have never heard anything better.

It has nothing to do with AGAIN - whether Bose owners are happy campers or not. I am happy with my $99 microwave - it's lasted nearly 20 years and never failed - even fell off the back of a truck and still works great. Nothing but praise for my Danby Microwave. People treat audio gear no differently than they do any other home appliance.

And Bose advertises 1/2 infomercials in the middle of the day along side the home kitchen appliances before or after the Bosemercials.

Nothing wrong with a Wave radio itself - you can hook it up under a kitchen cabinet - it has CD remote wireless can hook up an ipod and it's only $500. There are better less expensive alternatives but they're not that much less money and you can probably sell the Bose for more on the used market. And better alternatives (Boston Acoustics and Cambridge Soundworks, or B&W) - well they're all still glorified clock radios so it's not a huge difference and Bose looks good. Still the Cambridge Soundworks is no worse sounding and is considerably less money Cambridge Soundworks: Table Radios, Stereo Systems, Music Systems, Clock Radios, Sound Systems

But if someone chose a Bose over that I could care less - it is not about what people choose to buy. It's about choosing to buy it for the wrong reason when had you known you would not have. The folks who think Bose sounds the best and then discover that nope they sound pretty bad (once they hear better). If they bought at Commercial Electronics they would be able to hear excellent systems and they'd know they're buying style. Everyone goes in eyes open. No one wants to buy something they're told is the best sound available and 5 months later find out they were rooked. If I was in the market for a $500 clock radio I would try and audition the Bose because it fits a niche few are in. I would not NOT buy it because it's a Bose product.

Recently I've been touting the Cerwin Vega CLS 215 - this is a brand most audiophiles sneer at for being - for being - well - Cerwin Vega. I mean this has been long held to be a poor sounding bass dominant brand. But it's a good speaker at an honest price and it's fun - but it actually sounds good. I have no problem saying so.

In fact Bose had a speaker called the 305 which was a good sounding speaker - it was even recommended in blind sessions in Hi-Fi Choice magazine - so there. And some are reporting the headphones are good.

Like anything else - I am not brand loyal - I am product loyal perhaps - I may like Audio Note but I don't like all the stuff they sell and I don't think all of it represents the best value. And if Bose makes a superior product for the money I'll say so.

[markw]

[B]I am not insulting anyone who chooses to buy those products for those reasons. However it is when Bose advertises that the Wave radio can replace full surround sound systems, or any Big stereo system then that's laughable. The Wave Radio sounds like a glorified Clock radio - because that is what it is. That is marketing deception. And many of the buyers out there really do "believe" it because they have never heard anything better.

No, it's not laughable, except perhaps to you. And, for their target market, the bolded statement is entirely true. There is no deception. Just like a Chevy can replace a Bentley for anyone's transportation purposes, these little plastic boxes produce satisfying sound to them and can replace a big rack of equipment. So, essentially, it serves the same purpose as a rack for their target market for all they care, and they are just as happy. Style, size, and simplicity take precedence over sound for them and they are apparantly willing, and happy, to pay for it.

You might want to look into the word "puffery" and expand your knowledge base a bit.

As for those people you seem to be trying to protect, if they blindly buy into the hype and buy Bose based purely on their advertising without exploring what else is out there, then that's on them, not Bose.

So, stop trying to apply your standards to others. You look like a snob.

[RGA]

So, stop trying to apply your standards to others. You look like a snob.

Thanks but I will do whatever the hell I want. So stop telling me and others (based on YOUR standard of etiquette) what to say and do and how to run their life.

[markw]

Thanks but I will do whatever the hell I want.

And so will I..

So stop telling me and others (based on YOUR standard of etiquette) what to say and do and how to run their life.

I'll say what I want to whomever I want. Paticularly to snobs like you when you get full of yourselves and need an enema. I'll be here to insert it.

And, no JM. I'm not switching sides.

TTFN

[texlle]

I would consider it snobbish to think that ALL Bose buyers are ignorant of better brands. SOME are and some aren't. There are those who buy bose for the brand-whore and aethetic appeal. These are the people who I believe RGA is attacking here. I happen to agree with him. Doesn't make me a snob- maybe a bit opinionated. Then you have others who aren't as concerned with accurate sound reproduction as the typical audiophile- those who buy for convenience (large dealer network, ease of installation), WAF, and other reasons not related to accurate reproduction. RGA, you understand this distinction as you stated, but did not make this distinction until later on in the discussion. Somehow this is still evading Mark's needlessly conflagratory argument. But, yes, some people are led to believe that the wave radio can sound like a large "traditional" stereo system. However, whether or not their belief that this is true cannot be determined and truly should not be judged. Maybe there are those who have never seen any of Bose's ads and their wild claims (as I'd see it), who wandered into a Bose outlet and literally believed a bose wave radio to sound just as good, and as big as their old Magnepan setup. It's subjective preference. Maybe they're almost deaf or just guilty of brand lust. I believe both of you to be guilty of generalizing. In Mark's case, the very arrogant comment where he claimed to speak on the behalf of everyone on this forum when he characterized RGA as being snobbish.

[RGA]

I would consider it snobbish to think that ALL Bose buyers are ignorant of better brands. SOME are and some aren't. There are those who buy bose for the brand-whore and aethetic appeal. These are the people who I believe RGA is attacking here. I happen to agree with him. Doesn't make me a snob- maybe a bit opinionated.

I didn't think I was attacking them; however, yes that is the difference. Aesthetic buyers versus the "brand-whore" to a not very good brand (in terms of sound quality). The sound quality opinion may be opinionated but not snobby. Interestingly, it is the reason one often pays MORE for BOSE and tells everyone it's the best - they are actually the ones who fit the definition of "snob" as they are buying the brand to "have it over" everyone else.

Somehow this is still evading Mark's needlessly conflagratory argument. But, yes, some people are led to believe that the wave radio can sound like a large "traditional" stereo system. However, whether or not their belief that this is true cannot be determined and truly should not be judged.

Not really sure that that is the issue. It doesn't really matter what the reason is for buying a wave radio. When it becomes an issue is when an owner says it's the best and decent hi-fi equipment. Merely stating the fact that they are ignorant of what is out there isn't being a snob - it's simply telling them by the way listen to any one of these 400 brands some of which are in driving distance from your house.

Maybe there are those who have never seen any of Bose's ads and their wild claims (as I'd see it), who wandered into a Bose outlet and literally believed a bose wave radio to sound just as good, and as big as their old Magnepan setup.

Possible, but highly doubtful. If you meet anyone let me know. If I meet anyone I'd be amazed. That's just it - I have never ever met anyone anywhere that has heard good quality audiophile brands and proceeded to purchase a Bose loudspeaker system. The Wave Radio is something else- I don;t know anyone who is an audiophile and bought one but I did read about a guy on a forum who did - but nobody is buying a clock radio to recreate the Philharmonic anyway.

There are generalizations and generalizations. When I say for example Bose is "viewed" by virtually every audiophile and reviewer on every audiophile website in the world as being overpriced for the coin I am coming up with that information on more than 10 years on audio forums and discussing it with reviewers.

I have not met anyone that traded in his SoundLab or AN's or Teresonics or Quad panels, or Magnepans, or Revels, JM Labs, etc etc for a set of Bose 901 loudspeakers. I have read many posts and know many people who had those speakers and dumped them.

Indeed, when I had the $250 B&W 302 loudspeakers and let a Bose 901 retailer (who didn't know much about audio and thought the 901 was best) audition the 302 he was so impressed he bought a pair for himself and sold his 901s. The 302 is a fine little speaker but it's still just a tiny 2 way for $250. The 901 was going for $1850 and is a royal pain in the arse to position.

So yes there may be an exception - there may be a Scaena or Perfect 8 Technologies speaker owner out there who decides - nope the Acoustimass sounds better. But the point of generalizing is that it is a "general" rule.

For instance I will mentions SS high feedback amps sound a certain way and invariably someone will mention Sugden or Pass Labs. But how many SS makers are out there that don't design amps in the same way and that are affordable? To me it's pretty safe to generalize when it's 90%+ part of the time.

The only audiophile poster I have met in support of the 901 was Soundmind/skeptic and even then only the first original model - and only after he basically rebuilt the entire thing and only with a special crossover presumably that he designed and only with additional drivers.

And I defend Bose more than most - the 901 is fine in a club where you want to spread the music around a large room - it works like a charm - much better than the sound in the pub when they were using Klipsch horn loudspeaker with a narrow focus. The 901 sounded better not just to cover the room either - it was less shouty and hard sounding - you could converse with the Bose in the background not intruding your conversation. In a home the Klipsch speakers sound better however in the listening chair (Ref 3).

[E-Stat]

"brand-whore"

Hey, great term! I happen to observe them.

[markw]

I didn't think I was attacking them; however, yes that is the difference. Aesthetic buyers versus the "brand-whore" to a not very good brand (in terms of sound quality). The sound quality opinion may be opinionated but not snobby. Interestingly, it is the reason one often pays MORE for BOSE and tells everyone it's the best - they are actually the ones who fit the definition of "snob" as they are buying the brand to "have it over" everyone else.

Well now, I can't think of too many audio manufacturers that can get as much "decent" sound from as little real estate as their devices do and, when you consider their "lifestyle" systems, have as good a human interface. Some of those things cost money, ya know. For people who seek these qualities, I can see where they might see them as the best they could have purchased FOR THEIR NEEDS.

Now, as for lording it over others, I can't say that I've seen any Bose owners doing that. Have you? Do you even associate with Bose owners? I think not.I do, however, see them telling others how much they like their purchase.. And, ya know what? Others go out and buy them based on what they've seen and heard at a friend's house. That's called word of mouth.

I do see where a lot of their one-piece units are in the homes of older people who don't see the need for a big system. They seem to be their biggest market, at least from my experience. Good luck trying to talk them into a complicated system. Their infomercials aim for the heart of this market and hit the bulls-eye.

And, if print advertising in upscale magazines keeps their name recognition high, so much the better. That's the name of the game.

Say what you will, they can take one small box, place it in the room, plug in, and fill the room with pleasant sounding music. Maybe not the highest in fidelity, but certainly far from unlistenable, and easy simple to operate. Can Audio Note make that claim?

And, if print advertising in upscale magazines keeps their name recognition high, so much the better. That's the name of the game.

I do, however, see you flaunting your Audio Notes all over the place so I'd be careful about calling others "brand-whores". For them, their little system is as good as your beloved monkey coffins but, from your continuing posts here, you just can't give them credit for knowing what they want and like .

But, I await Audio Note's entry into the lifestyle audio jewelery systems that so far seem to be the sole domain of Bose and B & O.

So, quit trying to make THEM out as snobs. You should look into the mirror.

[JohnMichael]

And so will I..

I'll say what I want to whomever I want. Paticularly to snobs like you when you get full of yourselves and need an enema. I'll be here to insert it.

And, no JM. I'm not switching sides.

TTFN

Wow that is rude and offensive in so many ways.

[markw]

Wow that is rude and offensive in so many ways.

It was truly meant in good humor. I'm sorry you didn't see it that way.

[JohnMichael]

It was truly meant in good humor. I'm sorry you didn't see it that way.

I was not even participating in the thread. Wow and you thought it was humorous.

[Florian]

Only a total fraking moron would call what I said snobbery - only bnrainless retards could possibly not be able to determine that some objects in existence in the world of retail sales do in fact represent a "higher" or "lower" level of quality. A Bentley is a better car than Ford Fiesta - and that is an objective fact and only a fraking idiot with a brain the size of a pea would argue against that point

You are were i was 6 years ago. Dont try this one, you cant win. By the way, the older i get the more i like reading your posts. Keep it up