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I just ran a side by side comparison with 1 SEAS Thor Tower and 1 10" Infinity Perfect sub housed in a 1cu. ft. sealed enclosure (both rated @ 4 ohms but the sub has a 2dB @ 1 watt higher effiency rating) using a test tone generator from 10 to 50Hz.. Comparing both audible and vibrational effects between the two there is no discernable difference from 10 to about 40Hz range, above 40 and the Thor's are hands down louder than the sub. Note: Below 25-30Hz the audio output from both were inaudible unless I really turned up the volume.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emack27
I just ran a side by side comparison with 1 SEAS Thor Tower and 1 10" Infinity Perfect sub housed in a 1cu. ft. sealed enclosure (both rated @ 4 ohms but the sub has a 2dB @ 1 watt higher effiency rating) using a test tone generator from 10 to 50Hz.. Comparing both audible and vibrational effects between the two there is no discernable difference from 10 to about 40Hz range, above 40 and the Thor's are hands down louder than the sub. Note: Below 25-30Hz the audio output from both were inaudible unless I really turned up the volume.
car sub? what amp did you use? note that it's a 10inch driver housed in a small enclosure. There is no subsitute for cubic inches, and that's what your thor's have.
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Of course I'm not using a 12 or 15" sub here and since the sub is not ported then the sub should extend lower than a typical ported enclusure design.
This makes for some interesting research, and not that I seem to care but I know there are subs out there that have very good in-room low frequency response either using sealed or ported enclosures.
A typical ported desgn would have a good low frequency response at its tuned frequency. In this respect I do conceed but only slightly in that some subs will give a better lower frequency response than my 6'5's.
However, my 6.5's do have an advantage over using a sub in that there is a lack of coherency in bass at the crossover frequencies when using a sub.
Chow.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
car sub? what amp did you use? note that it's a 10inch driver housed in a small enclosure. There is no subsitute for cubic inches, and that's what your thor's have.
Yes a car sub.
The amp I used is listed below.
Using the subs specifications the optimal design enclosure for a sealed box is 1 cu. ft.
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Well emack, you can continue to claim that 6 1/2" woofers can compete equally with a decent sub if you wish. That's your opinion. You might want to note that everyone else who has responded has said that they disagree with your assessment. :confused5:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emack27
I just ran a side by side comparison with 1 SEAS Thor Tower and 1 10" Infinity Perfect sub housed in a 1cu. ft. sealed enclosure (both rated @ 4 ohms but the sub has a 2dB @ 1 watt higher effiency rating) using a test tone generator from 10 to 50Hz.. Comparing both audible and vibrational effects between the two there is no discernable difference from 10 to about 40Hz range, above 40 and the Thor's are hands down louder than the sub. Note: Below 25-30Hz the audio output from both were inaudible unless I really turned up the volume.
So what do you do for all the good stuff below 30? BTW,below 30 @ say 95-105db.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
Well emack, you can continue to claim that 6 1/2" woofers can compete equally with a decent sub if you wish. That's your opinion. You might want to note that everyone else who has responded has said that they disagree with your assessment. :confused5:
Well I guess hearing is believeing.
I'm fine with what everybody else thinks. But truely these Thor speakers are deffinitely the best I've ever heard even compared to systems with or without subs.
"It's all in the set-up"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shokhead
So what do you do for all the good stuff below 30? BTW,below 30 @ say 95-105db.
I guess i'll just have to live without frequencies below 25Hz. :frown5:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emack27
Well I guess hearing is believeing.
I'm fine with what everybody else thinks. But truely these Thor speakers are deffinitely the best I've ever heard even compared to systems with or without subs.
"It's all in the set-up"
Funny :-)
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All the set up in the universe is not going to move large amounts of air. Are there no other audiophiles near you? Are there no dealers near you with decent demonstration rooms? I'm very glad for you that you are happy with your system but you should do a comparison with a "good" subwoofer. Your low end response claims remind me of a friend who was certain her car would go 140mph because that's what the speedometer went to.:ihih:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
All the set up in the universe is not going to move large amounts of air. Are there no other audiophiles near you? Are there no dealers near you with decent demonstration rooms? I'm very glad for you that you are happy with your system but you should do a comparison with a "good" subwoofer. Your low end response claims remind me of a friend who was certain her car would go 140mph because that's what the speedometer went to.:ihih:
Did i ever show you my funny "air moving" photo?
-Flo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shokhead
You mean a fart?
Nope, i dont want to show the picture from you on the last BBQ meet. :ciappa:
I have a picture comparing the air moving ability of a 6 1/2 driver to my divas bass area. LOL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Nope, i dont want to show the picture from you on the last BBQ meet. :ciappa:
I have a picture comparing the air moving ability of a 6 1/2 driver to my divas bass area. LOL
hmm so you got your usher's... sucker:biggrin5:
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Originally Posted by audio amateur
hmm so you got your usher's... sucker:biggrin5:
Well, a KW into a bass panel is a nice controll.....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Well, a KW into a bass panel is a nice controll.....
Can't wait to audition..;)
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Ok then.
Let's do some calculations shall we?
The total surface area (or in other words how much air a particular driver can move) of a 12" diver is 113 sq. inches. The total surface area of (4) 6.5" drivers is 133 sq. inches.
So if your theory about a driver's ability to move air is dependent on it's size (surface area) then you have made my point.
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Thats why i move 3120 square inches of air, with less movement, more linearity and no box....:ciappa:
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Originally Posted by audio amateur
Can't wait to audition..;)
Youll love it here, well go to a good club, spin tunes on the Apogee Caliper, DIVA Reference and the small Maggies. I can show you some VMPS boxes etc...
:cornut:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Thats why i move 3120 square inches of air, with less movement, more linearity and no box....:ciappa:
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah...
Oh BTW what is the linear excersion limits on those?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emack27
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah...
Oh BTW what is the linear excersion limits on those?
Hehe, considering your character so far, you will expect a small number and then go on ranting about the effect is has to move air. Well, ill let you in on a secret. Excursion= non linearity and distoration. You can also controll these by servo controlling your bass, like its done on the Infinity IRS series, Genesis Advanced Technologies etc.... or you can create a membrane with a perfect flat surface, huge area, huge controll over area, almost no movement, ribbons that stay perfectly over their entire operating range or you can buy two 6 1/2 woofer and find the nearest audio forum to talk to guy who has heard most equipment, owned a lot and has access to some of the worlds best designs and try to argue with him with about pointless crap....... and the ability to move air and creating bass with two 6 1/2 woofers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
or you can buy two 6 1/2 woofer and find the nearest audio forum to talk to guy who has heard most equipment, owned a lot and has access to some of the worlds best designs and try to argue with him with about pointless crap....... and the ability to move air and creating bass with two 6 1/2 woofers
LOL. You're a funny guy.
BTW. It's (4) 6.5" drivers. MTM design.
Hey, unless you've heard a pair of Thor's then you really can't possibly tell me I'm full of @$%#.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emack27
LOL. You're a funny guy.
BTW. It's (4) 6.5" drivers. MTM design.
Hey, unless you've heard a pair of Thor's then you really can't possibly tell me I'm full of @$%#.
Considering that no one picked up on your speakers being MTM in design a lot of this could have stopped in the beginning had you said so. We all know there is a large difference between (1) 6.5" and (2) 6.5" per speaker. However, you still might want to check out "good" subwoofers. They can and do make a considerable difference in full range speakers including other MTM designs. As someone else mentioned, 100+db at 20hz requires a subwoofer.
This in no way negates my comments about box resonances and their effect. All boxes resonate and color the sound. Manufacturers like Wilson and Focal use heroic construction methods to keep cabinet resonance to a minimum. The only way to get rid of cabinet resonance is to get rid of the cabinet. I have heard a subwoofer with a cabinet made of poured concrete. Even it had resonance. Without going to exotic materials tubes make the least resonant enclosures. When Hsu research started they used concrete construction formers for their subwoofer enclosures. Those formers are still less resonant that just about anything else out there. The have the added benefit of being very reasonably priced although they are not particularly attractive. It is very easy to build a subwoofer in a construction former.
Instructions for building a ported tubular subwoofer.
1. Get Woofer
2. Use Theile Small calculations to determine enclosure volume and port dimensions.
3. Get a former large enough to mount the woofer on one end.
4. Cut the former to length for a calculated internal volume.
5. Mount Woofer on one end.
6. Stuff tube with damping material.
7. Add a cap with the port tube to the other end.
8. A fabric sock can be used as a cover.
Said subwoofer will be less resonant than most everything else.
This should be enough information for anyone who is interested.:cool:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emack27
I guess i'll just have to live without frequencies below 25Hz. :frown5:
Your missing all the fun.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
However, you still might want to check out "good" subwoofers. They can and do make a considerable difference in full range speakers including other MTM designs. As someone else mentioned, 100+db at 20hz requires a subwoofer.
:cool:
Well, yesterday I spent a considerable amount of time listening to my system with my Infinity Perfect sealed 10" sub hooked up and I noticed there were some bass notes that my Thor's either couldn't reproduce or couldn't reproduce as loud without the sub. So IMO a sub would be a worthy compliment to my system. Not that I really need a sub it's just that it would compliment the whole audio spectrum and I don't see why adding more speakers would hurt any system.
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