how do you rate these floorstanders? this is my demo list...

[psonic]

tinhere, I have read about Swan before and that 550 is jaw drop sweet looking, I am going to look into auditioning that with the link you provided. The online reviews for Swan are excellent, although I agree with RGA and others in saying this is meaningless. My thinking is If a person bought a speaker why would he not be happy with it? Unless mechanical failure, it would be unlikely to see bad reviews. But just for kicks, if theres a local pair, I would love to hear them...or even Axiom M60's for the matter

phillyguy, that is the store where I auditioned them side by side! small world out here on the www! I plan on taking my amp in there this week to hear them both at length. I stopped by Tweeter this weekend and I don't care for the Mirage line, not sure of the model, was around $800, but I didn't get 45 seconds in and couldn't tolorate the box resonances. Even my fiance started shaking her head! Not sure what type of music you played on them, but next time try something with some bass, you'll likely see what I mean. I rank this speaker down close to the Paradigm Monitor, the worst I've listened to in this bunch, though the Mirage has a better top end. I have been to Overtures also, that's where I heard the MMG's big brother. I am impressed, but they won't work in my current setup because they'd have to be about a foot off the wall and right on the side walls also (there's a cutout where my widescreen is, about 2' deep, only place I have for the speakers in my condo), so I am scratching them off my list. Be nice to buy in Delaware and pay no sales tax though! How much did they offer the C5 for? I thought $650 at WWS was under retail...

some others I heard this weekend-

Vienna Acoustics Bach ($1500) http://overture-audio.com/product_li...tics/bach.html -on clearance at $1000 (probably had for even less) as Tweeter is closing them out. They were a joy to listen to, with detailed warm sound and holographic imaging and big stage; sounding much like the pricier audiofile Sonus Faber Concerto (which I am very fond of) with a bit more low extension.These are sand fillable. The kicker here is they were this good on a top Yamaha receiver, which is a real credit to their flexibility, IMO. I could have had them move the Vienna to another room where there were amps, but time was running low so I am going in with my integrated amp for a second listen, which I believe will bring them up to another level. If they blow me away like I think they might, and I can cut them down a bit on price this, and the condition of the floor model is very good, then this thing may be happily over.

Boston VR2 ($729) - Not bad, in fact good, just wasn't moved as much as with the Kef or C5. And don't like the cabinet as much either.

Martin Logan ($1800) not sure of model - beautiful looking speaker, but I was telling the salesman the same thing RGA mentioned (Friday, before I read his post) about bloated bass from the woofer that isn't well-integrated with the sweet, open highs and mids I heard. Just stands out like a sore thumb, IMO. What a shame. I had him stop the audition 2 songs in...

Mirage Floorstander not sure of model ($800?) - see first paragraph

RGA, there is only 1 Audio Note dealer within a 1hr drive so hopefully he has some for audition, heck if only for reference purposes!

[markw]

Let’s get down to some of your contradictary statements, shall we? Let’s start with your responses to one of my posts.

“The point of many boxed speakers is not to sound like a panel...that would imply that panels are accurate which of course aren't. The typical verbiage of openness and air is used due to visual cues because their is openness and air around the speaker. And the reverse argument is the sound is hollow, shallow and without support. Boxed instruments have a box...piano, cello, guitar violin sound rich and warm the way they're supposed to through good boxed speakers.”

The instruments should sound boxy themselves. Are you saying that they need boxes to be reproduced correctly? By that logic, horns should be reproduced by horns, Organs by transmission lines speakers, et all. What would you recommend for an accordian? Funny, most of my "hearing impared" musician friends (mostly choral and orchestral) are very well impressed with the 1’6’s. But, what do they know...

”I'm also puzzled by your last statement...Planars sell? They're poor sellers compared to boxed designs...Magnepan is basically the only planar that has managed to stay alive in a big way and they're a damn small speaker maker compared to others in their price range.”

Magnapan seems to be doing all right, at least as far as they are concerned. I don’t see then leaping to overextend their production capabilities to meet an increased demand. They obviously seem to be doing all right, at least by their expectations. Are you saying that Sony is a better manufactutrer because they make more and sell more?

The word is “quality” with enough profit to maintain it. Not mere quantity. That’s what Radio Shack is for. Or you still pissed of that your “Audio Note- biggest manufacturer” post at AA got laughed out of the running? Was his observation that they put quality over quantity lost on you? …or are they the only manufacturer that abide by that philosophy?

”BTW, I'm not attacking planars and Stats...I've heard many and some depending on the price would get top marks from me...but my requirement is that they play all music well for the given genre. The Aerius i at 3k Cdn had some supurb attributes but fell down the list outside of soft music”’

Yeah, right. You’re not attacking planars and stats. …just telling anyone that they shouldnlt even waste their time trying them. Must be nice to not have to live within budgetary constraints.

Now, let’s look at your responses to Geoffcin, shall we?

”Firstly many seem to want to defend their preference as fact. I own X speaker therefore it is best and they'll do precisely what you do whic is to provide anectdotal evidence that my musician friends think my speaker sounds like a guitar piano etc...then turn around and probably slam the speaker that was used in the recording process to get the piano to sound like a piano in the foirst place...and that speaker ladies and gentleman has a very good chanvce of being something many of us would not choose at the price point the B&W M801 or N801. A lot of speakers boxed or not can sound terrific - even those using metal tweeters which is not my favorite.”

Well ,I guess it’s all right when you defend your choices by pointing to all the reviewers that own them. After all, they know more about what music sounds like than musicians, right?

”Your comment about what many boxed speakers attempt to do is valid and has been my complaint for a long time...box resonances. Very expensive very heavy very well damped boxes can get rid of it...anything less and the result is a boxier sound. The reason many reviewers at Stereophile, Hi FI choice, Enjoythemusic.com, and dealers in business 30 years actually OWN Audio Note speakers in their homes not just giving good reviews, I suspect is because of the fact that they do exactly the opposite of typical boxed designs where they DON'T try to damp the box or use any damping materials including the dreaded ferro-fluid on the tweeters. The Box itself is involved in the sound and resonances are not kept in the box but released right away. Further the AN's don't have a piston or long throw type driver because the speaker is wider than it is deep."

Yet, in your post to me, you're defending their boxiness as integral to reproducing wooden insturments correctly. Which is it? I gues that only Audio Note gets it correct, right? No, you're not defending your personal choices here, are you? I'm sure they are under $1000/pair, right? If not, then it's a moot point, but what do you care.

”I can't speak to Magnepan but the AN E speaker starts at ~$2700.00US(List) and goes up to a 30k plus version. The Martin Logan Oddysey and N801 with all the great looks and neato technology don't sound as good...some speakers may have more bass depth, some will play louder, some will have technical superiority in certain areas...but as a cohesive unit from top to bottom they're the best speakers I've heard musically. I want to hear the $800.00US Zero Twos simply because they're compared with Quad...I can't think of any other boxed speaker that has been so often compared to electrostatic speakers...the difference is the Audio Note's I've heard actually have balls when it comes to playing a pop/dance or rock albums.”

Well, even though you say you “can’t speak to Magnapan”, you certainly seem to have no problem dismissing it from everyone elses consideration, eh?

”Sound aside there are other limiting factors when assembling a system. Space(size of room and positioning), money for amplification, some people want SETs or other low powered pure class A amps and therefore need sensitive easy to drive speakers, system cost...it costs way more to get high powered amps to sound as good as low powered high quality amps.”

Again, you make it seem that your personal choices are immune from these considerations. If so, then perhaps you might be on to something. But methiks not. Sounds like another case of someone trying to justify their own purchases.

”I like elctro stats and I would probably like the BIGGER planars. If ML had fixed a few issues up they would be right near the top of my list. This is not unlike why I preferred the Sennheiser HD600 over the Stax Lambda pro...the HD600 provides 90% of the detail in the midband but is a 4fold improvement in the bass and dynamics department...I'll sacrifice 10% in one area for a 400% improvement at the extremes and in dynamics especially if it costs less - a lot less - to get it”

From your earlier responses to Geoffcin, It’s pretty obvious you’ve never heard planars in their proper environment. But here you go dismissing then and comparing speakers to headphones again.

Give it up RGA, you’re the biggest offender of your own complaints about owners going all out to defend their purchases.



__________________

[RGA]

The word is “quality” with enough profit to maintain it. Not mere quantity. That’s what Radio Shack is for. Or you still pissed of that your “Audio Note- biggest manufacturer” post at AA got laughed out of the running? Was his observation that they put quality over quantity lost on you? …or are they the only manufacturer that abide by that philosophy?

Well firstly this is a downright lie. My post was not in the running for anything now was it. My post was about a review I read about the Audio note CD2 where the reviewer stated, not me, that Audio Note was the second largest British Manufacturer after B&W. My post was to get that cleared up and went along the lines of "can that really be the case because I had never really heard of Audio Note. Further I asked about what the reviewer could have meant by 2nd largest. It is clear they are not second largest in sales, so presumably the reviewer was meaning this in terms of product offerings in terms of choice. Audio Note's previous web-site claimed to be the largest distributer of high end in Britain...but that only means they sell in more countries than anyone else which doesn't mean biggest in sales. That was the point of my post...biggest can mean a lot...

And no i'm not saying Magnepan is bad because they're not huge - I heard planars in the mid 1990s that looked very similar to the Magnepan's but because I didn't write the name down back then i can't be sure it was Magnepan or if it was someone else's speakers. That is why my comments on Planars are not specific. I listen and evaluate with the best gear available in high end shops that know how to set-up gear - If I comment on a product that I heard at Futureshop or other dreadful place then I state that to be fair.

I am certainly NOT saying for people to not try Magnepan...My attitude is to try as many different types of designs as is possible. For what it's worth I would take the risk on the MMG than buying the 602S3 or Paradigm or other dynamically inept slim line design metal tweetered ring a ding a ding dong tweeter. However I have also read reviews of the MMG that does note the limitations and if one is a rock music lover then I am pretty sure that speaker is going to be completely outclassed by said 602S3 which is a startling good boxed speaker as an all-rounder. The 1.6 and up apparently are a total other ball-game.

As for speaker types sounding better with certain music well interestingly enough my Wharfedale's use horn speakers and do in fact present horn instruments very differently than other speakers - I won't say better but the Trumpet and Sax are more pronounced.

There is nothing at all wrong with using headphones as an example because headphones don't suffer from room acoustics. You cannot accurately gauge soundstage and imiging but you can detail resolving abiltiy treble bass and mids. Though I should have noted that the HD 600 is different in that it is an open air design.

Planars are comparable to stats which is where I have heard a greater number. My comments about Audio note were to illustrate that there are boxed speakers that don't sounded boxy except where the BOX sound is Necessary. When I listened to the Jesse Cook Guitar on my speakers I can hear the guitar box resonance, on the Paradigm Monitor the guitar box is gone and all you hear is the pluck of the string...call it decay...same on piano which is vital.

Now if the Stats and Planars do that then I would be happy...the smaller ML's don't the bigger pricey one's do IMO.

[phillyguy]

psonic -

It is a small world! There was something about the Mirage that moved it behind the Energy and Kef but I couldn't figure out what it was. I think you have it. I actually preferred the smaller floorstander Mirage to the larger, likely because of less resonance? I wasb't crazy about the high end seemed to dispersed for my liking. I loved the VA's, but they were out of my price range. At Overtures, this is the deal I had: C-5's with center (can't remember which one) with 10.2 sub and take 2.2 rears for $1600. Didn't get a price at WWS. Check the Axiom board, I think there are 3 people that will let you come by to here the Axioms. I have been considering the Axiom M60's as well. Not crazy about going to a stranger's house to hear them though. What amp are you using? I have a Denon AVR 1082 (3802 clone). I would hate to unhook it and bring it anywhere. WWS has a speaker return for 100% store credit for up to 1 year to upgrade speakers, in case you don't know.

[TinHere]

tinhere, I have read about Swan before and that 550 is jaw drop sweet looking, I am going to look into auditioning that with the link you provided. The online reviews for Swan are excellent, although I agree with RGA and others in saying this is meaningless. My thinking is If a person bought a speaker why would he not be happy with it? Unless mechanical failure, it would be unlikely to see bad reviews. But just for kicks, if theres a local pair, I would love to hear them...or even Axiom M60's for the matter

psonic,

The 550's are Rocket's by Onix and can be bought at AV123.com. Swan's are made by a different company and sold through the audioinsider.com. AV123 used to distribute Diva's, but developed, manufacture, and distribute the Rocket line now. Many owners of the Diva's tried and kept the Rocket's when they were introduced. I used to have Diva's and now have Rocket's. IMHO the Rocket's sound better and are finished better. When AV123 developed the Rocket's it was done to offer a better value compared to the Diva's they were already familiar with. If they couldn't offer a better product in terms of build quality and sound AV123 would not be enjoying the success they are having. Swan's offer very good value especially when compared to b&m store's offerings at their price points, and IMO Rocket's have increased the difference in value.

Reviews are only good to the extrent that your tastes coincide with the person who wrote the review. The better reviews compare and contrast and help give you an idea about the sonic signature of a speaker. The business model of the successful online companies offer an excellent opportunity for the consumer to spend their money on a better speaker, and not on middleman profits. These companies are growing because they are delivering on their promises of product and customer service. The testimonials from satisified customers bear this out. Problems do arise and are discussed in the open on forums. If these problems weren't addressed to the satisfaction of the consumer these companies couldn't survive. They live or die by word of mouth on the forums. SVS, HSU, Axiom, Swans, ACI, OutlawAudio, Odyssey, Ascend, etc, would not remain in business unless they offered more than you could get locally. These companies aren't growing because they made a sale, but because they make a customer who can recommend them. The numbers of people buying almost exclusively from these online direct companies is growing among the audio community for good reason. The trick is researching which one will best satisfy your listening tastes. Keep in mind they aren't just selling to first time buyers, but people who have been into audio for years as well. Dismissing this option out of hand will limit what you can get for your money in today's new marketplace. The price of shipping will more than be compensated for in better value. The enthusiasm you read about these companies from end users isn't just a bunch of people rationalizing a mistake, but from people who feel they have gotten ahead on the value/performance curve.

Look for that audition or have an in home audition. It might, and often does change how you invest in your system. Most of the people were VERY skeptical when they decided to try this new business model. It would have been very easy for them give these products a bad review if that is how they felt. Company loyalty must be earned on every order with every customer.

Happy hunting.

[drlazybones]

Boston VR2 ($729) - Not bad, in fact good, just wasn't moved as much as with the Kef or C5. And don't like the cabinet as much either.


Dude, where did you find that! I'm there - I'm a Boston head, I'll admit it...

Last I checked, these were selling at Tweeter for about $425 a pop - that's more like $900 after tax. I could care less if the box isn't pretty, the SOUND is gorgeous...

[acqui]

Forgive me for sounding like the novice I am but what happened to the response to the poster's original question? As someone who enjoys music and also looking at movies in a good HT system, I am always in awe at those who claim to be "audiophiles" Case in point....I was in an audio store here in NYC yesterday listening to some of the very speakers the poster is inquiring about. I happened to have walked into another room they had set up for music and had a pair of Infinity Kappa 400 floorstanding towers playing, driven by an HK 7500 receiver. To my ears, I thought these speakers sounded beautifully compared some of the others the dealer was trying to "sell" me. He wasn't pushy but more condescending in his tone when explaining what "true audiophile" sound was. To my ears, I couldn't really tell a significant difference between some of the speakers costing 2-3 times as much as the Infinity (PSB and Paradigm's mid to top line) But yet the salesman kept insisting that what I was hearing and what true audiophile sound was were completely different. I don't think there is anything wrong with those who wish to spend multiple thousands of dollars on a pair of speakers but my ears have yet to find a significant enough difference in speakers costing $2-3k and speakers costing 3-4 times as much. In terms of looks and perhaps build quality, I can understand but my parents have Ohm Walshes and I have to admit, I have yet to hear speakers that are their equal in their price range or exceeding it. Personally I don't like speakers that sound "tinny" and I suppose the metallic tweeters are partially responsible for that? I am not sure but perhaps someone could clarify that. And if anyone has listened to the Ohm Walsh speakers, are there any other brands out there that are close in sound to these speakers? I'd like to perhaps get something similar sounding because the Walsh speakers are quite large. With regards to the original poster, I think the B &W speakers are quite good compared to some of the others you mentioned, though all of them have their own nuances but in the end, you should always audition them personally.

[psonic]

Guys, I finally got over to my nearest Dynaudio dealer to hear the Audience 62. After listening to the Vienna Bachs ($1050 display) and then last week the Totem Staff ($1200 display) and I was prepared to stretch a little on the $$ as the sound of the under $1K speakers all sounded mid-fi in comparison, IMO. For example the $995 Monitor audio silver floorstander (not sure of model, but 2 6" woofers) lost in every category to these except bass, but they were bloated and boomy. Well the Dynes offered the most bass of the 3 (I don't use a sub), and sounded just as wonderful everywhere else...in particular, female vocals from Natalie Merchant's Tigerlilly were rendered better than I have heard in this price range. The speakers just dissapear into a huge soundstage, and no bass bloat or boxiness to speak of. The only downside is the cabinet is not a veneer like the Vienna & Totem, I guess the money went to the drivers. The cabinet does however seem extremely well made and solid; the finish is the best non-wood I have seen.

Final thoughts on my auditions-
If anyone is shopping a floorstander in the $1k range and likes a natural, uncolored, audiophile sound, with good bass and a large involving soundstage..do yourself a favor and listen to Dynaudio Audience 62, Totem Staff and Vienna Acoustics Bach (on clearance at all Tweeter stores). These are a downright steal when you look at how good they sound compared to the pricey stuff, like Sonus Faber. I highly recommend all three, they all have different strenghts and few outright weaknesses and all have a sweet sound and silk tweeter. They moved me.

For $600 - $800 (and $800 is a stretch as your sooooo close to the others) I did like the Energy C5 & Kef Q5.

I'd like to thank you for all your feedback and advice. I bought a pair of Dynaudio Audience 60s from audiogon.com, realizing there is risk involved, but a great savings too. As part of the deal, he paid for shipping too! Here they are:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1082597411

My understanding is they sound very similar to the 62, so I doubt I will be dissapointed if they arrive intact. Though worst case, they are insured in the shipping.

[Jimmy C]

Dynaudio does make fine speakers. I'm not familiar with that exact model, but the Audience line is indeed swell :^)

I feel exactly as you do regarding how well the Viennas stack up to the Sonus Fabers - I felt the Hadyn was very similar sounding to the Concertos at half the price.

The Dyns seem to like a bit of breathing room, moreso than other like speakers, IMO. The bass is definitely generous, and seems to get a bit "fat" if too crowded. I'm sure you'll have fun playing around.

Enjoy your new toy!