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Thread: Experiment, Extreme toe-in

  1. #1
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Experiment, Extreme toe-in

    Here is an interesting article about extreme toe-in. Of course I had to try it. Does anyone else use extreme toe-in? As I listen longer I will share my opinions.

    Extreme Toe-In | The High Fidelity Report



    Dial In Your Speakers … Dial Out Your Room

    What I’m about to suggest I have tried on a couple of occasions and have had mixed results overall, but have had fantastic results with 2-way dynamic monitors. Your mileage may vary, but it is worth an experiment as it may obviate the need for a lot of acoustic products on your walls (the absorptive-kind, which I mostly abhor).


    The Problem:

    As with most dynamic speakers and some other types, as well, the dispersion pattern (or polar pattern) of the loudspeaker tends to throw quite a bit of audible information at the walls that are nearest to them. This has mostly to do with the fact that, as the wavelengths of the frequencies that the speaker is reproducing get longer, they tend to wrap-around the body of the speaker and widen their dispersion. That all-important “first reflection” point can cause interference with the main (incident) wave of the audio signal as they mix together and confuse your ear/brain. The typical medication for this problem is a sound-absorbing panel placed along the side wall where that first-reflection is located.

    The article continues in the link.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  2. #2
    Suspended
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    It seems to me that too much toe in could introduce more issues as frequencies meet in the middle from firing at each other. But how we hear and sound travels defies logic at times.

    I would think your Studios would have less room effect than most and actually sound worse with too much toe in. The wave guides like Revel uses helps with room effects as ell.

    You certainly can't under estimate the effects of room acoustics though. If anyone experiments I think they will be amazed.

  3. #3
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Experiment, Extreme toe-in-002-med.jpgLooks strange but sounds good.

    As was stated in the article 2 way monitors work best in this configuration. So I pulled out my two way monitors. The increase in detail is very nice. Listening to Joshua Bell and his violin I am now hearing all the detail of the strings and their tone. So far an improvement. Imaging is better and more layered.

    They are further away than they were but I may separate the speakers even closer to the side walls. Of course I have furniture that will prevent me from moving the speakers too far apart.

    The sound is different but I think it is better.
    Last edited by JohnMichael; 07-26-2015 at 07:24 AM.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  4. #4
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Incredible from what I have been hearing. Toe-in those stand mount two way monitors and hear them for the first try. Hey Slippers toe-in those speakers you own for a treat.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  5. #5
    Forum Regular Jack in Wilmington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    Incredible from what I have been hearing. Toe-in those stand mount two way monitors and hear them for the first try. Hey Slippers toe-in those speakers you own for a treat.
    I can get the tweeters of my Usher X-719's the required 9 ft. apart and I sit 8-1/2 to 9 ft. from the speakers, but I can't get them 4-1/2 ft. from the front wall. My room is only 11 ft. from front to back.
    2 Channel System
    Dynaudio Contour 1.8 Mk II
    Pass Labs X150.5 (Amp)
    Cary SLP-03 (Preamp)
    Music Hall MMF 5.1 (TT)
    Goldring 1012GX (Cart.)
    Pro-ject SE II (Phono Box)
    Rotel RCD-1072 (CD Player)
    Bryston BDA-1 ( DAC )
    Sennheiser HD-600 (Headphones)
    Musical Fidelity Xcan V3 (Headphone Amp) _

    HT System
    Usher X-719 (Mains)
    Usher X-616 (Center)
    Usher S-520 (Surrounds)
    Rel T2 (Subwoofer)
    Anthem MCA20 (Amp)
    Yamaha RX-A830 (Receiver)
    Panasonic TH-46PZ85U (Plasma TV)
    Denon DBT-1713UD (BluRay/SACD)

  6. #6
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	002 med.jpg 
Views:	257 
Size:	129.0 KB 
ID:	9894Looks strange but sounds good.

    As was stated in the article 2 way monitors work best in this configuration. So I pulled out my two way monitors. The increase in detail is very nice. Listening to Joshua Bell and his violin I am now hearing all the detail of the strings and their tone. So far an improvement. Imaging is better and more layered.

    They are further away than they were but I may separate the speakers even closer to the side walls. Of course I have furniture that will prevent me from moving the speakers too far apart.

    The sound is different but I think it is better.
    So what does that do for your sound stage and depth? Seems like depth would be gone and sound stage small.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  7. #7
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    Incredible from what I have been hearing. Toe-in those stand mount two way monitors and hear them for the first try. Hey Slippers toe-in those speakers you own for a treat.
    I've tried it.....Cantons have a very large dispersion. They don't need toe in at all....when toed in, no sound stage and no depth....bass becomes over powering and distoted. I guess its not foe all speakers.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  8. #8
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Frenchmon it has been quite interesting for me. Using the OML1's in the past a moderate toe-in would congest the sound and place the vocalist more to the rear of the soundstage. The extreme toe-in that I am loving now has no of the ill effects I had previously experienced. Soundstage is still the same width and depth if the recording captures the depth.

    My experience with extreme toe-in has really removed the contributions of the room. Focus is so much better with all types of music. Listening to Joshua Bell I now hear the vibration of his violin strings on an SACD of his. I think reflections were masking that detail before. String quartets are more present when in the past the combined playing made it difficult to follow one instrument.

    Of course my room was a good one to experiment with this amount of toe-in. I had no acoustical treatment and it is small enough to have some early reflections. Now I am hearing the speakers and not speakers + room. My two way stand mount monitors are what he said would work best in this kind of situation and for me I am not going back.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  9. #9
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Frenchmon I know some speakers are meant to be listened to on axis and others due to how they are voiced sound better off axis. My speakers dispersion now crosses before my listening chair so in effect I am listening off axis. Sorry it did not work for you but it is singing beautifully for me.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  10. #10
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    JM...and I'm happy for you! Its great to have new experiences with outr gear without actually having to buy new stuff. Yeah, Cantons where never designed for toe in. Pointed straight a head is the best way to listen to them.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  11. #11
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    I have to say the extreme toe-in has been the greatest tweak to my system at no expense or any expense. In years past I had a live end/dead end room with the speakers in the dead end. The dead end of the room was ugly with foam panels. I think this is better overall and looks better without the room treatments.

    I have struggled to make speakers sound good in my room. I was always changing position and toe-in along with swapping speakers. Of course now the OML1's are kicking ass in my room and I am sorry I bought the other speakers I did. I did not need new speakers just extreme toe-in.

    Godsmack "Live and Inspired" is rocking the room right now.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
    Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/cd SID mat, Marantz SA 8001
    Int. Amp Krell S-300i
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  12. #12
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Not only are they still toed-in and I have had no interest in tweaking the position. I am one of those that if one position sounds good lets try to make it better. Somehow I nailed it the first time. It has been amazing to have the room out of the way. Clarity is amazing.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
    Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/cd SID mat, Marantz SA 8001
    Int. Amp Krell S-300i
    Speaker
    Monitor Audio RS6
    Cables
    AQ SPKR and AQ XLR and IC

  13. #13
    Forum Regular Jack in Wilmington's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=JohnMichael;405285]Not only are they still toed

    You know we have a pool going as to when you will change speakers. It's up to $300. Ha Ha
    Feanor and JohnMichael like this.
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    Musical Fidelity Xcan V3 (Headphone Amp) _

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  14. #14
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Jack in Wilmington;405286]
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    Not only are they still toed

    You know we have a pool going as to when you will change speakers. It's up to $300. Ha Ha

    I might take a little of that action myself. Of course now I know I was fighting my ears and the room. No more Aspartame and my hearing is consistent. No more room effects and the speakers are sounding great.

    I do not think this toe-in would work for the JBL's due to their dispersion pattern and my final thought on the MA RS6's is that they are too aggressive. The Focal 806V's might get dragged out at some point but I have no interest right now. I am too busy enjoying the music at this time. Oh my could I actually be content with my system?
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
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  15. #15
    Forum Regular Jack in Wilmington's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=JohnMichael;405287]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington View Post


    I might take a little of that action myself. Of course now I know I was fighting my ears and the room. No more Aspartame and my hearing is consistent. No more room effects and the speakers are sounding great.

    I do not think this toe-in would work for the JBL's due to their dispersion pattern and my final thought on the MA RS6's is that they are too aggressive. The Focal 806V's might get dragged out at some point but I have no interest right now. I am too busy enjoying the music at this time. Oh my could I actually be content with my system?
    The odds in Vegas are 12 to 1 against.
    2 Channel System
    Dynaudio Contour 1.8 Mk II
    Pass Labs X150.5 (Amp)
    Cary SLP-03 (Preamp)
    Music Hall MMF 5.1 (TT)
    Goldring 1012GX (Cart.)
    Pro-ject SE II (Phono Box)
    Rotel RCD-1072 (CD Player)
    Bryston BDA-1 ( DAC )
    Sennheiser HD-600 (Headphones)
    Musical Fidelity Xcan V3 (Headphone Amp) _

    HT System
    Usher X-719 (Mains)
    Usher X-616 (Center)
    Usher S-520 (Surrounds)
    Rel T2 (Subwoofer)
    Anthem MCA20 (Amp)
    Yamaha RX-A830 (Receiver)
    Panasonic TH-46PZ85U (Plasma TV)
    Denon DBT-1713UD (BluRay/SACD)

  16. #16
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    JM...thats excellent news!
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  17. #17
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post
    JM...thats excellent news!
    Thanks! I am on the road to Kansas so I am mising my dog and stereo.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
    Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/cd SID mat, Marantz SA 8001
    Int. Amp Krell S-300i
    Speaker
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    Cables
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  18. #18
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post
    So what does that do for your sound stage and depth? Seems like depth would be gone and sound stage small.

    As I continue to listen I have noticed a few effects. Stage width is still wide but there may be a reduction in depth. On the other hand the sound is more dynamic and lively. What I may lose in depth, recording dependent, I gain in musicality. A slight loss of some stereo attributes for a big increase in music. Vocals integrate better with the musicians and both are more solid instead of that slightly wispy trait. Instead of ghost images it is now more flesh and blood.

    I think I am joining the camp where the music matters more than image depth and separation among musicians. I certainly still have width with the vocalists and musicians in their place on stage. There is still depth but not creating a really large hall in a small room. Classical still has good depth of soundstage but it is not what draws me to the music. Hearing the vibrations of the violin's strings and other textures and colors of the orchestra now that the room is not contributing are amazing.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
    Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/cd SID mat, Marantz SA 8001
    Int. Amp Krell S-300i
    Speaker
    Monitor Audio RS6
    Cables
    AQ SPKR and AQ XLR and IC

  19. #19
    Suspended
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    I just realized that the way I set my JM Labs up in the family room corner cabinets, they are pretty well toed in.

    I have always been amazed at the huge 3 dimensional sound they have in that room and when you stand in the one foot square perfect spot, you are IN the music.

    I don't usually sit in the sweet spot for this 3rd system so I have not played with moving them around. This system is mor for just music in the house and outside.
    JohnMichael likes this.

  20. #20
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    I still am enjoying extreme toe-in but not as much as I did with the Krell.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
    Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/cd SID mat, Marantz SA 8001
    Int. Amp Krell S-300i
    Speaker
    Monitor Audio RS6
    Cables
    AQ SPKR and AQ XLR and IC

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