Experiment, Extreme toe-in

[JohnMichael]

Here is an interesting article about extreme toe-in. Of course I had to try it. Does anyone else use extreme toe-in? As I listen longer I will share my opinions.

Extreme Toe-In | The High Fidelity Report



Dial In Your Speakers … Dial Out Your Room

What I’m about to suggest I have tried on a couple of occasions and have had mixed results overall, but have had fantastic results with 2-way dynamic monitors. Your mileage may vary, but it is worth an experiment as it may obviate the need for a lot of acoustic products on your walls (the absorptive-kind, which I mostly abhor).


The Problem:

As with most dynamic speakers and some other types, as well, the dispersion pattern (or polar pattern) of the loudspeaker tends to throw quite a bit of audible information at the walls that are nearest to them. This has mostly to do with the fact that, as the wavelengths of the frequencies that the speaker is reproducing get longer, they tend to wrap-around the body of the speaker and widen their dispersion. That all-important “first reflection” point can cause interference with the main (incident) wave of the audio signal as they mix together and confuse your ear/brain. The typical medication for this problem is a sound-absorbing panel placed along the side wall where that first-reflection is located.

The article continues in the link.

[Mr Peabody]

It seems to me that too much toe in could introduce more issues as frequencies meet in the middle from firing at each other. But how we hear and sound travels defies logic at times.

I would think your Studios would have less room effect than most and actually sound worse with too much toe in. The wave guides like Revel uses helps with room effects as ell.

You certainly can't under estimate the effects of room acoustics though. If anyone experiments I think they will be amazed.

[JohnMichael]

Looks strange but sounds good.

As was stated in the article 2 way monitors work best in this configuration. So I pulled out my two way monitors. The increase in detail is very nice. Listening to Joshua Bell and his violin I am now hearing all the detail of the strings and their tone. So far an improvement. Imaging is better and more layered.

They are further away than they were but I may separate the speakers even closer to the side walls. Of course I have furniture that will prevent me from moving the speakers too far apart.

The sound is different but I think it is better.

[JohnMichael]

Incredible from what I have been hearing. Toe-in those stand mount two way monitors and hear them for the first try. Hey Slippers toe-in those speakers you own for a treat.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Incredible from what I have been hearing. Toe-in those stand mount two way monitors and hear them for the first try. Hey Slippers toe-in those speakers you own for a treat.

I can get the tweeters of my Usher X-719's the required 9 ft. apart and I sit 8-1/2 to 9 ft. from the speakers, but I can't get them 4-1/2 ft. from the front wall. My room is only 11 ft. from front to back.

[frenchmon]

Incredible from what I have been hearing. Toe-in those stand mount two way monitors and hear them for the first try. Hey Slippers toe-in those speakers you own for a treat.

I've tried it.....Cantons have a very large dispersion. They don't need toe in at all....when toed in, no sound stage and no depth....bass becomes over powering and distoted. I guess its not foe all speakers.

[JohnMichael]

Frenchmon I know some speakers are meant to be listened to on axis and others due to how they are voiced sound better off axis. My speakers dispersion now crosses before my listening chair so in effect I am listening off axis. Sorry it did not work for you but it is singing beautifully for me.

[frenchmon]

Looks strange but sounds good.

As was stated in the article 2 way monitors work best in this configuration. So I pulled out my two way monitors. The increase in detail is very nice. Listening to Joshua Bell and his violin I am now hearing all the detail of the strings and their tone. So far an improvement. Imaging is better and more layered.

They are further away than they were but I may separate the speakers even closer to the side walls. Of course I have furniture that will prevent me from moving the speakers too far apart.

The sound is different but I think it is better.

So what does that do for your sound stage and depth? Seems like depth would be gone and sound stage small.

[JohnMichael]

Frenchmon it has been quite interesting for me. Using the OML1's in the past a moderate toe-in would congest the sound and place the vocalist more to the rear of the soundstage. The extreme toe-in that I am loving now has no of the ill effects I had previously experienced. Soundstage is still the same width and depth if the recording captures the depth.

My experience with extreme toe-in has really removed the contributions of the room. Focus is so much better with all types of music. Listening to Joshua Bell I now hear the vibration of his violin strings on an SACD of his. I think reflections were masking that detail before. String quartets are more present when in the past the combined playing made it difficult to follow one instrument.

Of course my room was a good one to experiment with this amount of toe-in. I had no acoustical treatment and it is small enough to have some early reflections. Now I am hearing the speakers and not speakers + room. My two way stand mount monitors are what he said would work best in this kind of situation and for me I am not going back.

[JohnMichael]

So what does that do for your sound stage and depth? Seems like depth would be gone and sound stage small.

As I continue to listen I have noticed a few effects. Stage width is still wide but there may be a reduction in depth. On the other hand the sound is more dynamic and lively. What I may lose in depth, recording dependent, I gain in musicality. A slight loss of some stereo attributes for a big increase in music. Vocals integrate better with the musicians and both are more solid instead of that slightly wispy trait. Instead of ghost images it is now more flesh and blood.

I think I am joining the camp where the music matters more than image depth and separation among musicians. I certainly still have width with the vocalists and musicians in their place on stage. There is still depth but not creating a really large hall in a small room. Classical still has good depth of soundstage but it is not what draws me to the music. Hearing the vibrations of the violin's strings and other textures and colors of the orchestra now that the room is not contributing are amazing.

[Hyfi]

I just realized that the way I set my JM Labs up in the family room corner cabinets, they are pretty well toed in.

I have always been amazed at the huge 3 dimensional sound they have in that room and when you stand in the one foot square perfect spot, you are IN the music.

I don't usually sit in the sweet spot for this 3rd system so I have not played with moving them around. This system is mor for just music in the house and outside.

[JohnMichael]

I still am enjoying extreme toe-in but not as much as I did with the Krell.