Dynaudio or... Please comment on my options!

[S. Jensen]

Hello folks,

I have been searching for new speakers for quite a while now. I have narrowed down my search pretty much to a few speakers. First of all, let me give you some basic information:

My stereo is a Harman Kardon AVR 5500 (the international version of AVR 520) and a Harman Kardon DVD 25. So far my speakers have been the bookshelf Tannoy Revolution 1 - they have done a good job for its size and price - but it is time for me to move on and up. I wold like a floorstander this time.

My living room is about 6.5 meters long and 3.8 meters wide - with a little 2*2 meter extension in the end of the room. The height of the room is 2.85 meters and I have a wooden floor. (We will possible get a carpet/rug to place in front of the speakers very soon)

Music first! The speakers' primary function is stereo for music purpose. But the plan is to move the Tannoys and use them as surround speakers. So surround is important to, but stereo is the main purpose. I listen to pretty much all kinds of music. I like details, accuracy and a well controlled deep bass.

I am getting quite keen on Dynaudio Audience 72 or 82. My price limit is about USD 2000.

I would like to hear some comments on these speakers for my system, please. Will my receiver be able to drive the speakers well enough? (I know an upgrade of the receiver would help, but right now I don't have the money for that). What are the pros and cons? I might give Dali Evidence 870 a listen - they have a pair on sale where I live, so they match my price range.

I have listened to, and excluded these speakers:
System Audio 1750
B&W DM604 S3
... among others... I had a whole list...

Well, that's it for now! I would really like to hear some comments and experiences on the Audience 72 and 82 and the Dali Evidence 870 as well!

Kind regards and happy hifi to all of you!

S. Jensen

[NickWH]

I was driving Dynaudio Audience 42's with an HK AVR 220. A year later I upgraded to a Plinius integrated amplifier. My suspicions were correct: I was missing out..on detail, imaging, bass weight, dynamics, you name it. My suggestion is, unless you feel like investing more money into amplification in the very near future, seek out 6 - 8 ohm speakers with higher sensivity. There are very few A/V receivers out there that will do Dynaudio speakers justice (like maybe B&K). You have a nice home theater setup, it would be a shame to start from scratch due to a speaker upgrade (like I did!). Have you looked at Jamo, KEF, Monitor Audio, Mission, etc.?

[RGA]

To follow up on the last poster your budget might get you an entry level Standmount Audio Note speaker. High sensitivity, easy to drive and a lot of bass at good volume and maybe the best bass and dynamics you'll hear from any standmount at any price. Works well with low powered tubes and the speakers are upgradeable later.

Try and find a dealer to audition...Dynaudio is good mind you they were in the running - but they need a lot more power which costs even more money and then it still wasn't as good to me.

As for very impressive deep bass you'll need a sub(preferably two) - that is true whether you have a standmount or the Dyn 82 http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

[ppopp]

Have a look at PMC speakers. As well as ProAc if they don't have to floorstanders. PMC sound is very rich with great bass extension and imaging to die for.. ProAc monitor speakers are amazingly musical with masses of detail, particularly in the upper frequencies. Both are designed with music in mind for their singing purposes, although neither will less than excite you with movies (depending on the quality of the sound in the production of course).

[nusiclover]

seems you really like your bass....
if this is the case then dynaudio 82's are hard to beat for the price.
however, as a dyn owner i can tell you that the 72 and 82 are not really audiophile speakers. they have overpowering bass and this affects the overall presentation.
if you are looking for a killer stanmount speaker that delivers bass down to 25hz and truely is an audiophile speaker with great imaging and excellent dynamics, id recommend von schweikert vr-2. these retail for $2495, but boy are they worth it. the treble will remind you more of the dynaudio contour series then the audience.

[S. Jensen]

Thank you very much for the replies so far.

I knew my amplifier could be a problem with the Dynaudios. I am sure that a more powerful amplifier could improve the sound quality, but I am very excited about a test session with the Dynaudios and a receiver like mine or something similar. I have spoken with three Dynaudio dealers in Denmark. They all assured me that the HK AVR 5500 (US AVR 520) could to the trick with the Dynaudios. Well, that might be some typical sales person talk, I am still skeptic, but at least one of them has quite a good reputation for his honesty and dedication to audio.

I have read all the reviews on the 72 and 82 on this site. Over all people are very happy with them. Again, I can see that the amplification the reviewers use beats mine - except for a few. One guy, "Paul from Berkeley, Ca, USA" is extremely pleased with his Audience 82 and he uses an Arcam A-85 amplifier. I am sure my HK matches that one. I think this should be the right link to the review:

http://www.audioreview.com/Main,Spea...x.aspx#reviews

Now, I might give my self false hopes and expectations, but I guess there is no other way out than to bring along my receiver and give the 72s and 82 a good listen.

NickWH: I have read a review in a Danish forum with a guy who drives the 42 with a Marantz SR 4300 and is quite pleased with the result. Perhaps he is in for a pleasant surprise if he upgrades his amp.

I have decided on floorstanders this time. It has helped me to limit the selection.

I know of very few stores that sell Audio Note and Von Schweikert, but I might look into that. I mostly know of Audio Note from RGA, and I take that as a very good recommendation. I once heard some Von Schweikert, and as far as I recall they did a very good gob - but they were also a bit pricy.

I have looked into some other brands also. I guess Klipsch could be interesting, but I must say the craftsmanship and finish does not impress me very much. I am sure they sound quite good, but off hand they don't look so good. See, there is another parameter...

Jamo D 590 might be an option. They are on sale over here for USD 1000 a pair, but in my opinion they are not as good as the Dyns. But perhaps I should look more into them. I have also auditioned some Monitor Audio Silver. Sounded quite good, but the looks did not fall into my taste.

Nusiclover: You are partly right about my emphasis on bass. I miss some bass in my Tannoys right now, so I am a little focused on that. A sub is the last thing I will buy, so that is a part of the reason why I am very keen on the 82 - several reviewers appreciate the bass of the 82 so much, that they don't care much for a sub. For instance this review:
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equi...42w_sub30a.htm

Once again, I appreciate your input! Keep it coming, please. I will keep you updated on my experiences and final decision.

Kind regards and happy hifi!

S. Jensen

[manek]

The jamo D590 are very good once they break in......dont pass that one up yet. It may be just the kind of speaker you like. They to are 4 ohms.

Quad 22L would also suit you well. Give it a listen. 6ohms nominal load

Ofcourse my favourite Cadence Diva would be just ideal for your amp, 8 ohm load.

[NickWH]

Nusiclover, you really crack me up. About a month ago you had such a hard-on for all things Dynaudio, you had to have them no matter what. Now they are "not audiophile speakers." Now Von Schweikert is the speaker to beat? In a few of weeks I'm sure their will be a new flavor of the week. You are all over the place, I can see you hitting the upgrade treadmill hard.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and to express them here, however, I would like to remind S. Jenson that these posts must be taken with a grain of salt. All things audio are way to subjective to go on opinions alone. You know what they say about opinions...

Listen for yourself and good luck with your purchase.

[topspeed]

Nusiclover, you really crack me up. About a month ago you had such a hard-on for all things Dynaudio, you had to have them no matter what. Now they are "not audiophile speakers." Now Von Schweikert is the speaker to beat? In a few of weeks I'm sure their will be a new flavor of the week. You are all over the place, I can see you hitting the upgrade treadmill hard.

I don't think Nusic is slamming Dynaudio at all. As a 52se owner, he in fact has more insight than most as to the Dane's sound. I think he was simply stating that these particular models aren't as balanced as the Contour line and might not be the sound the poster was looking for. He has stated that he is really enjoying the MF/Dane combo now (especially with the mirrors out of the way ). I liken the difference between the Audience vs. Contour comparison to the B&W 600 vs. 700 lines whereas the 700 are more balanced and cohesive than the 600's. Neither are bad, but there is a difference. If the poster is bass happy, there are few speakers in this price range that will have the kind of accuracy and energy in the 20's like the VR2.

[Soundbro]

I have gone through painstaking personal research on finding a speaker that did it for me and did it for my budget, and I keep coming back to the Paradigm Reference line. Speakers are highly personal in nature, but if there's a better value out there, I haven't seen it yet. Take a set home and demo them.

[RGA]

Mr. SoundBro

I had the opportunity to listen to Paradigm versus several others of similar cost. I could have had the Studio 100 for instance but chose the Audio Note for slightly less money. I don't particularly think the Paradigms are any better than anything else in their price points and IMO certainly no giant killer nor are they high end speakers to me. Then again they're(Studio Line) not really any worse than those in their price range so naturally some will like them better.

[RGA]

I know of very few stores that sell Audio Note and Von Schweikert, but I might look into that. I mostly know of Audio Note from RGA, and I take that as a very good recommendation. I once heard some Von Schweikert, and as far as I recall they did a very good gob - but they were also a bit pricy.

S. Jensen

VS and Audio Note are small companies compared to many of the others and as such they will be tougher to find. Audio Note requires a dealer that carries them to carry the complete audio chain. Not carry the top models but the delaer has to have a room with a complete Audio Note set-up -- a turntable, amp, cd player and speakers and cables. Many small dealers simply cannot afford to carry Audio Note which means only a larger or deep pocketed store can carry them since even their entry stuff is pretty pricey.

You have to go with what is in your area - I liked the 52Se as value moreso than the contour line - interestingly the only Dynaudio Dealer went under here - so if you were in my market then Dynaudio would be the tough one to find ---so it depends on markets. Soundhounds in Victoria British Columbia is the biggest Rega turntable dealer in all of North America - they carry a huge range of gear which helps me listen to a variety of stuff against each other. That said there is no Von Schweikert here - at least not yet.

In the end you can only listen to what's available...if VS and Audio note are available then check them out - if not and Dynaudio is the king of the hill in your area then the choice is a good one. You can't listen to everything. The 52 was and is very solid speaker that should be good to live with long term.

[Mr Peabody]

Not to put your receiver down but HK isn't even in the same league with Arcam's anything. Arcam should be something you look to upgrade to. Not all watts are created equal.

You have come to a couple observations that we agree on, first Dyn's sound much better than B&W and Klipsch are very poorly crafted. I have found Dynaudio to be the best dollar to performance ratio out there. I have Dyn Contours across the front and A52's for surround. I also have a second system which has an Adcom pre/power amp driving some A62's. I haven't had the opportunity to play with HK in a long time but if they are like the receivers of old which were fairly high current and discrete output sections, I'd say you will be fine running Dyn's. Obviously, you will gain better sound with a better amp. From what you have said about your listening habits I believe Dyn's are the speaker for you. They are very neutral, detailed and have the best bass response of any speakers I have heard. What I mean by neutral is that they aren't one of these speakers people can say they sound good on rock but not classical or vise versa, Dyn's sound good on everything I have played through them. Also by neutral, they do not color or add to your signal. If someone found them to be too bass heavy it had to be the equipment driving them. My 62's sound very different when I hook them up to my Krell than when driven by the Adcom. You may say that's to be expected. Yes, but if the Dyn's had a signature of their own, which they don't, that characteristic would show to some extent in any system they are in. For instance, if they had a bass hump, that would be noticed no matter what amp drove them. I have had several amps hooked to the 62's and they have done a good job of revealing the characteristics of each amp.

Please let me know what you thought when you do your listening test. I know you want floorstanders but you should give a listen to the A52se, it's a killer for the money. But it may be difficult to match to a center speaker.

[S. Jensen]

Thanks for the new inputs - I would like to comment on some of them.

NickWH: Thanks, I will try to take any input into consideration, but also remember, that good taste in sound is very different from person to person. Something you easily can forget when people make very "factual" statements on speakers and sound.

I have done a little research on the Von Schweikert VR2, and they are a bit too expensive for me. So is Vienna Accoustics Beethoven, I am afraid. A dealer contacted me and gave me a good offer and invited me to a listening session. Tempting, but I am afraid it is out of my league financially. It seems that Paradigm has left the Danish market - so that option is out as well.
Another dealer has suggested me to look into the Tannoy Eyris series. I know very little of the Eyris series, but as with many other speakers I have heard very different opinions on them. I have read some poor reviews of it, but they might be wrong. Who knows. As RGA concludes, then I have to face that it will be impossible for me to listen to all speakers available. Something new will always come up and the markets are different in every country.

Again I would like to comment on the bass emphasis. Do not get me wrong. I am very much interested in a speaker that is able to perform some low, powerful and tight bass, but I am not at all into Cerwin Vega etc. I would like the main speakers to perform some good bass when needed. For instance when watching a DVD movie or when listening to some rock or some classical music like Wagner.

Mr Peabody: Thank you for your thoughts on the Dynaudios. I am happy about your rating of Dynaudio and that you think my amp will do the trick with them. Your description of Dynaudio in general is very similar to my impression of the brand. I am well aware of Arcam being superior to my Harman Kardon AVR 5500. Only I thought it was the characteristics of the sound, not the actual power of the two receivers/amps that was the main difference. Arcam would certainly be an upgrade - and a beautiful one - but there are also more powerful receivers in that market. But that is another topic for discussion.

Now for the listening session with my own receiver, which ultimatively will help me make the final decission: Some extra work came up, so I am not sure I will have the time to test the the Audience 72 and 82 this week. I also need to book some time in advance when bringing along my own receiver to the dealer. I hope to get that opportunity very soon.

That's it for now, I will keep you updated!

Happy HiFi and best regards

S. Jensen

[3db]

They are in the price range your looking at

[S. Jensen]

Hello 3db

Thank you for the input. PSB seems to be a nice company that makes good speakers. I looked into it. There is a Norwegian distributor, but no Danish one. I am afraid that leaves PSB out for me.

Best regards!

S. Jensen

[nusiclover]

Nusiclover, you really crack me up. About a month ago you had such a hard-on for all things Dynaudio, you had to have them no matter what. Now they are "not audiophile speakers." Now Von Schweikert is the speaker to beat? In a few of weeks I'm sure their will be a new flavor of the week. You are all over the place, I can see you hitting the upgrade treadmill hard.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and to express them here, however, I would like to remind S. Jenson that these posts must be taken with a grain of salt. All things audio are way to subjective to go on opinions alone. You know what they say about opinions...

Listen for yourself and good luck with your purchase.

chuckles are free nick - glad i can offer up.
about my statements, dynaudio 82 are regarded by What! HiFi as "not audiophile" (i can provide issue # at request)...i agree that they have lots of bass that sometimes shadows over the mids and highs.
about Dynaudio, i think they make a good product- especially if you like dynamic sounding analitical sharp precise speakers with good fast bass (as far as bass precision id say they are hard to beat). I must say that if i were starting over id go with VR and i may do that in the future (this is because i found VR to be more rich in sound - musical rather than analytical), but for now i am very pleasaed with my danish investment. Furthermore, i am not swaying Jensen away from Dynaudio, merely adding some thoughts/reviews. This is for informational purposes only and not intended to persuay. Following with this however, i would like to say that Jensen, thread starter, has asked for Dynaudio or...? I believe that Jensen was looking into other options and feedback. I also said "82 are hard to beat for bass lovers". I think this is a rather good point. As far as my liking a different speaker every now and then, well, whats wrong with that? I dont always get vanilla ice cream, sometimes i do like a different flavor. Cheers.

[Mr Peabody]

I guess that would depend on what ones meaning of audiophile is. My friends have been to the Dynaudio factory and the fact is they are nothing less than top notch. Dynaudio builds their speakers entirely in house, hand made. They wind their own coils, build their own drivers, cabinets and every part of the speaker. I don't think too many of your "audiophile" speakers can say that. In fact, many use Dynaudio drivers, like Sonus Fabor and Wilson did use some. Dyn's are closely monitored for quality and held to a tight tolerance. In my opinion Dynaudio is one of the most accurate speakers you can buy at any price point. If this isn't audiophile, I don't want audiophile.

As I stated in my earlier post, Dyn's are brutally honest and will reflect imbalances in your electronics, as well as in recordings. Some people can't handle the truth.

[NickWH]

dynaudio 82 are regarded by What! HiFi as "not audiophile" (i can provide issue # at request)

Well, if What! Hi-Fi wrote it, than it must be true....

[nusiclover]

oh goodness, sometimes people take things tooo serious (and i have noted this commonality especially present at this forum).
Here is what What! HiFi said:
Dynaudio 52: excellent speakers
Dynaudio 52se: definitely a special edition to the excellent 52
Dynaudio 82: not for someone looking for a truely audiophile speaker.

they like dynaudio, a lot, as do i, as do apparantly you. But, they made the comment specific to the A82. And i concede. That comment is that the 82 have a lot, and i mean a lot, of BASS. Perhaps too much so as to compare them to ALL of their other speakers. Perhaps all that BASS (i mean have you ever seen these monsters?) makes the A82 not a true audiophile speakers.

so, this may or may not be true, depending on your definition of "audiophile". Well, i think that What! HiFi, and myself, are using audiophile as a conglomorate for people who like to listen to music represented in a certain form. And that form does not have BASS that totally weighs more heavy than the mids and highs.

BTW, i dont think either Peabody or Nick have Audience 82. am i correct?

[nusiclover]

ironically, do your dynaudios have HUGE BASS?
i know that mine have very tight and articualte bass. i also know that the bass does not engulf the mids and highs but that all 3 are rendered in a very "audiophile" way. how do yours sound?

[Mr Peabody]

I am not shooting the messenger here. I just tend not to agree with the magazine. I thought it was fine to bring what the rag, I mean magazine said into the discussion. My Dyn's do in fact have the best bass response of any speaker I have heard but that is not to the detriment of the total frequency response. To say they are bass heavy implies they
color or are not neutral and that simply isn't true.

I don't understand really what is meant by "too serious". I have to admit, I may be, because I don't want to mislead anyone with anything I say. I tell it straight to the best of my knowledge and experience. My neck hair has been raised on these boards by personal attacks and mistruths. I do try to be respectful of you all. If I cross the line feel free to let me know. So much of audio is personal taste, no right or wrong. On the other hand there are certain truths and guidelines you can bank on and there is enough confusion already so I don't let mistruths get by. For example only, please don't get sidetracked, there is a certain faction on these boards who tell people there is no such thing as high current amplifiers. This is a mistruth I couldn't let go unchallenged. I also admit I don't know everything and have been corrected on subjects before. I appreciate those who provide references for there information, like websites. I do try humor at times as well, if you read my reply to the post "rubber or butal".

[nusiclover]

your speakers shouldnt b bass heavy at all. once again i am referring only to the audience 82 model. by "too serious" i was actuslly referring to my comment of not audiophile being misconstrued by what some magazine has said. maybe i shouldnt have sourced it, but i do think providing sources can be useful in supporting ones arguments. perhaps i misconstrued What!HiFis comments on the a82. still, howerver, i believe they provide a lot of bass in relationship for what the audience tweeter does for the highs.

[RGA]

As RGA concludes, then I have to face that it will be impossible for me to listen to all speakers available. Something new will always come up and the markets are different in every country.

S. Jensen

I would like to throw in two arguments - one from me and Audio Note's designer who in the mid 90s wrote an article for Positive Feedback magazine - who are quite tough on equipment.

Firstly - There are speakers out there like the Audio Note's, Spenders, Quad electrostatics that have been around for decades - basically tweaked up but the same general speakers. And classics which are still considered some of the best speakers ever made. The fact is nothing over the last 20 years is especially new except that today's CHEAP speakers are better than cheap speakers of old. There are MANY people who for example covet the Klipshhorn and believe thatthe B&W Matrix Series was and is better than the new more expensive Nautilus line.

I have more or less been listening to stuff since 1990 when I bought my Wharfedales - their last good speaker before they ran into financial trouble and produced some pretty average to terrible speakers in the Modus and Rubiance lines.

There is very little music below 40hz and a sub(preferably 2 if you want true stereo because bass is directional because Subs have a habit of going above 40hz - nce they do that I can ALWAYS tell you where it is in a room) will do a better job than ANY floorstanding speaker at ANY price producing the lowest bass at a HIGH volume level which, if set-up properly, will integrate unheard. The bonus is that high quality well set-up subwoofers with standmounts will cost you less than a big floorstander for the most part.

Don't listen to anyone who starts talking about a neutral speaker - if Dynaudio is Neutral and other speakers sound different - which they do - then that means all other speakers are not neutral...and D'uhh the Dynaudio Evidence at 70k sounds a helluva lot different right?

The 52 is not a perfect speaker - others have said it's much better than the comparable B&W's I would disagree. It may be better suited to their taste or the way they think music OUGHT to sound - there is no way to know which is accurate.

Enter the philosophy piece from Audio Note - who were not advertising their stuff it's simply a better way to audition gear - if you are on the search for accuracy. Forinstance with their way of listening you would know immediately that the Bose 901 is a total piece of crap - you may know that anyway BUT more people buy 901s than the competition so perhaps people get tricked by the extremely large soundstage.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/anp1.htm

By the way this is not to say Audio Note speakers are perfect either - It is still going to come down to preferences. The top end doesn't jump out at you neither does the bass.

I strongly recommed you listen to their gear because it is a bit of curveball into the mix - They are based on a 1940s box designs revamped by Snell and re-revamped by Audio Note. Math is the same today and if you get it right the first time and materials get better you can add on. I am sick and tired of seeing a company change tweeters every 4 years - what was the previous tweeter garbage? Obviously or why change it? (This does not apply to companies who are forced to meet a cost because they have no choice). But where Audio Note has a huge advantage is no marketing costs, little payroll, low overhead, R&D has been done and now it's a matter of tweaking.

Like the Sugden A21a integrated amp which has been selling in current form since 1989 and still thumping way more expensive amps and EVERYTHING I have ever heard in its own price range - you don't NEED to advertise you don't need features what you need is a great product and when the customer who has never heard of either brand goes in and listens to the old antiquated designs first scoffs --- and then after listening to the mainstream supposedly superior designs scratches his/her head and will never go back - because the big conglomorate's sound sounds like a glorified telephone in comparison. They seem to lack dynamics, bass at volume, and lifelike sound.

Another poster on another forum once said - if they're a big name chances are their best avoided. I would hardly go to that extreme but I find it interesting that on an anecdotal level of my own experience that a no name - not great looking speaker like the AN K can totally and handedly outclass the N805 in ALL areas.

It also takes balls for a dealer who carries HUGE easy to sell names like Paradigm, ML and B&W etc to put them in a corner and present the unknown(well not to the ultra rich) Audio Note front and center(and for 2 years now so not just a flash).

You'll find some with more bass MAYBE- but LISTEN to the whole piece of music - if you're paying attention to treble, bass, soundstage, detail, then the speaker is overly drawing attention to itself -- sure on some recordings it might if they're inept --- but before I had these speakers I though a lot of recordings were truly terrible like Amanda Marshal's first album. I have heard it on 100k systems and it did sound horrible. Ahh not so in fact it is a very solid recording and it is ruined by inferior dreck.

Jesse Cook's acoustic guitar was so horrible through highly touted well reviewed conglomoprate speakers I had to shut it off I had a headache - many get the attack but not the decay of instruments and the latter is critical IMO - and most will NEVER ever hear a speaker that does it right - certainly not if big box chains with 6 inch multi woofers in a slim box with a metal tweeter is all you hear.

And all are welcome to disagree which many will of course. Some swear by Electrostas and Planars and they don't cut it for me - so it's all about TASTE.

[NickWH]

You are right RGA, nothing in speaker design has changed in 20 years. Not the cabinet materials used, not the driver technology, not the crossover design. Certainly, there has been zero advancements in computer aided design and the manufacturing process. It's all just marketing hype in the hopes of getting your money. Those EVIL corporations!

RGA, are you on the Audio Note payroll? I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit tired of the Audio Note info-mercials that you constantly post. It's great that you like your speakers and I'm happy for you, but 99.9% of your posts mention Audio Note (and/or Sugden) and it's getting a bit old. We all like the equipment that we own (obviously, that's why we bought it), but you are taking this to the extreme.

If it were up to you, we'd all upgrade to Sugden integrateds and Audio Note speakers and there'd be no reason to post on this or that OTHER board anymore, because in your opinion we'd all have the PERFECT system. You are so diligent in your lengthy posts that it's as if you are getting personal satisfaction from recommending such products in the hopes of proliferating your 'poor' uncommercialized brands. Or, maybe it's just audio snobbery on your part.

Somebody please tell me I'm wrong? Go ahead, flame me, I don't care anymore...