Dynaudio or... Please comment on my options!

[NickWH]

You are right RGA, nothing in speaker design has changed in 20 years. Not the cabinet materials used, not the driver technology, not the crossover design. Certainly, there has been zero advancements in computer aided design and the manufacturing process. It's all just marketing hype in the hopes of getting your money. Those EVIL corporations!

RGA, are you on the Audio Note payroll? I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit tired of the Audio Note info-mercials that you constantly post. It's great that you like your speakers and I'm happy for you, but 99.9% of your posts mention Audio Note (and/or Sugden) and it's getting a bit old. We all like the equipment that we own (obviously, that's why we bought it), but you are taking this to the extreme.

If it were up to you, we'd all upgrade to Sugden integrateds and Audio Note speakers and there'd be no reason to post on this or that OTHER board anymore, because in your opinion we'd all have the PERFECT system. You are so diligent in your lengthy posts that it's as if you are getting personal satisfaction from recommending such products in the hopes of proliferating your 'poor' uncommercialized brands. Or, maybe it's just audio snobbery on your part.

Somebody please tell me I'm wrong? Go ahead, flame me, I don't care anymore...

[RGA]

You are right RGA, nothing in speaker design has changed in 20 years. Not the cabinet materials used, not the driver technology, not the crossover design. Certainly, there has been zero advancements in computer aided design and the manufacturing process. It's all just marketing hype in the hopes of getting your money. Those EVIL corporations!

RGA, are you on the Audio Note payroll? I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit tired of the Audio Note info-mercials that you constantly post. It's great that you like your speakers and I'm happy for you, but 99.9% of your posts mention Audio Note (and/or Sugden) and it's getting a bit old. We all like the equipment that we own (obviously, that's why we bought it), but you are taking this to the extreme.

If it were up to you, we'd all upgrade to Sugden integrateds and Audio Note speakers and there'd be no reason to post on this or that OTHER board anymore, because in your opinion we'd all have the PERFECT system. You are so diligent in your lengthy posts that it's as if you are getting personal satisfaction from recommending such products in the hopes of proliferating your 'poor' uncommercialized brands. Or, maybe it's just audio snobbery on your part.

Somebody please tell me I'm wrong? Go ahead, flame me, I don't care anymore...

You are correct that I do likely over expose a bias to these two companies. Part of the reason though is that most people have never heard them - and even more-so have never even HEARD of the companies. They are tough to find - not in every state or province - and when you don't advertise and the products are not in shiny packages then many will bypass them EVEN when they're in a local store.

My posts reflect the price point of the poster and recommend an audition not to buy something unheard. The AN K spe is now priced at $2250.00US and I'll recommend it to those in that price realm.

At sub 1k you'll see me mention B&W, Energy, PSB and possibly Klipsh, Wharfedale, Linn etc. Sub 1k amplifiers and I won't mention Sugden.

I think the issue is the following. Most of us including me start with relatively inexpensive systems and we ALL get to know the players: Paradigm, B&W, PSB, Energy, Klipsh, Jamo, JBL etc. Then we we have more money $2000.00 instead of $200.00 we ASSUME that the players at the higher price points are these exact same brands. I may be happy with my Honda Civic hatchback but if I were to spend 100k would I not look at Ferrari? They have a specific interest in building the best sports car (whether it is or not I suppose is still subjective). With speakers and audio there are just SO many choices.

A company like Reference 3a for a long time only made $6k and up speakers - few carried them. Samll magazines like UHF gave them, like Sugden a couple of reviews but alas most people could not afford them. Some of these companies like Audio Note and Reference 3a and probably the folks at Avante Guarde and Gershman Acoustics build their compnaies from a point of PASSION - since none of them will ever outsell a Paradigm or a B&W they MUST sell a superior product or one that is different and equal to be able to stay in business. Audio Note's owner was rich before he ever started the company - this is a hobby for him- he builds cost-no-object systems first and then works down. But the design is virtually identical and that is why there is a house sound. The B&W 302 I had does not sound like a N801 - no matter how B&W likes to talk about trickle down sound.

And unfortunately you have me cold in that I think Audio Note is the best - at least of what I have heard - because the best system I have heard was an all Audio Note system - and at around $50kcdn it sounded better than many I have heard at several times the price. I'm going to want to tout that.

Lastly I have heard the AN E Sec a 20kUS speaker - it has the same box design as their entry level $2500.00US model but with lesser cables/crossover and parts. But if the AN E is 80% the speaker that that the SEC version is then it would still be better than the N801 at $11,000.00US --- and that does not happen often and the N801 is an excellent speaker. When i heard them I was scratching my head - who the hell is Audio Note and how do they have more bass while maintaining a smoother midband and a more cohesive sound than the 3-way larger beautiful B&W N801?

And not everyone will be partial to this kind of sound - some will be die-hard Electrostat lovers and I understand why - they have a distinct sound period. You won't convince them to buy or in some cases even try ANY boxed speakers because they believe ALL boxed speakers have too much colour. They are equally as passionate as I with their choice. I know why I would not want an Electrostat but I also know why people love them...so I say listen to different DESIGNS.

Listening to a 604 and a Studio 100 and some other slim line design to me is listening to the same sound with slight alterations in the treble/bass etc -- listening to those against an electrostat will yield a far greater degree of DIFFERENCE in sound - or a Klipshhorn - or an Audio Note or an Avante Gaurde etc. Try and listen to stuff not stamped out of the assembly line-O-matic products.

[Mr Peabody]

I beg to differ with your statement that there have been no improvements in speaker manufacturing over the last 20 years. If that was true, all our drivers would still be mostly paper. I believe that speaker companies like any other company has to continually improve on their product or they would find themselves outdated and out of business.

It sounds like you hunted for a speaker to make Jessie's guitar sound the way you wanted it to rather than the way it was supposed to be. I have faith that all the expensive equipment you listened to could not all be wrong in the reproduction of the recording. Not that expensive equates to accurate, I just have a hard time believing that Sugden and Audio Note is the ultimate reference system. I do believe that you are thoroughly pleased with it and that's what counts in your book. You just paint with a wide brush of condemnation of other equipment.

Obviously, the Evidence will do best what Dynaudio does in comparison to an Audience or Contour series. I am convinced from my listening that at any price point Dynaudio will be more accurate to the recording and the equipment characteristics than any other speaker offered at that price point or even higher to a point. The majority of recordings made are poor quality and accurate is not always the most pleasing. Then again, unless we were there during the recording and had photographic memory, accurate is as subjective as anything else in audio. Any of us who have heard live music though should be able to tell when they hear something that comes close. For instance, many listeners want strings to be warm and lush, I was recently listening to a string quartet in a college auditorium and they didn't sound like that at all. The instruments sounded somewhat cold, more like the way my Krell is criticized for sounding. I know there are many variables in this example but on most classical recordings my Krell and Dyn's reproduce strings more like the live strings I have heard. If tubes or Sugden make them warm and lush, and if that's what you like, that's fine, it's colored, not accurate. I guess the bottomline, we both can agree on, it comes down to personal preference.

[RGA]

I beg to differ with your statement that there have been no improvements in speaker manufacturing over the last 20 years. If that was true, all our drivers would still be mostly paper. I believe that speaker companies like any other company has to continually improve on their product or they would find themselves outdated and out of business.

It sounds like you hunted for a speaker to make Jessie's guitar sound the way you wanted it to rather than the way it was supposed to be. I have faith that all the expensive equipment you listened to could not all be wrong in the reproduction of the recording. Not that expensive equates to accurate, I just have a hard time believing that Sugden and Audio Note is the ultimate reference system. I do believe that you are thoroughly pleased with it and that's what counts in your book. You just paint with a wide brush of condemnation of other equipment.

Obviously, the Evidence will do best what Dynaudio does in comparison to an Audience or Contour series. I am convinced from my listening that at any price point Dynaudio will be more accurate to the recording and the equipment characteristics than any other speaker offered at that price point or even higher to a point. The majority of recordings made are poor quality and accurate is not always the most pleasing. Then again, unless we were there during the recording and had photographic memory, accurate is as subjective as anything else in audio. Any of us who have heard live music though should be able to tell when they hear something that comes close. For instance, many listeners want strings to be warm and lush, I was recently listening to a string quartet in a college auditorium and they didn't sound like that at all. The instruments sounded somewhat cold, more like the way my Krell is criticized for sounding. I know there are many variables in this example but on most classical recordings my Krell and Dyn's reproduce strings more like the live strings I have heard. If tubes or Sugden make them warm and lush, and if that's what you like, that's fine, it's colored, not accurate. I guess the bottomline, we both can agree on, it comes down to personal preference.

Firstly I think it's a dangerous game when discussing accuracy - a very popular paper on accuracy was written by Peter Qvortrup and showed up in Positive Feedback over several issues...it is the best audible gauge for a listener to determine accuracy and probably a reason why the AN E is used by Hi-Fi Choice and Stereophile as a speaker to measure gear.

Sugden is not the best by any stretch --- it is the best that I could afford --- to me. I heard my Speakers with an Audio Note integrated that frankly wollops my Sugden but at the price it should.

Paper woofers are still made by the likes of VIFA and are used mainly because they are lighter and faster than any other material while raising the sensitivity.

As for new designs - disagree that they are better they are new for marketing reasons better? Not so. Different yes.

As for what sounds better to me is of course the reason but it also sounds like an instrument. The Slim lines design speakers lack body and dynamic realism. I'm well aware of the Dynaudio Sound - I like their gear - but I didn't end up with it for a reason.

I would not say Dynaudio will be more accurate to everything else unless you've heard everything else. The Contour and Audience line IMO sounds very good - neither for me is what I would choose.

[psonic]

S. Jensen - I happily own the Audience 60's, they do not suffer from exaggerated bass, more the tower version of the 50. The 62 may be worth a listen, it sounds very similar to the 52 and you can take the cash you save toward a power amp. The 4ohm dynes will push the h/k very hard, the sound will be more rigid, compressed, and sometimes strained at higher volumes compared to a power amp. It may also be bright and lacking in bass. The power amp run off your pre-outs would let you see some of the potential of those marvelous speakers. Yes, the other poster was right...you will be OK, the h/k will run them, but to a much lesser level than an amp. A used amp or a dealer in-home demo would allow you to test inexpensively. Not to knock the h/k, it just wasn't designed to sound it's best under a load like the dynaudio. I'd say dynaudio + amp is very good solution for you...