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  1. #1
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    Burning in... (a question from a novice)

    Hi-

    I just purchased a pair of B&W 805s and a Bryston B60 amp. I've read, here and elsewhere, that the B&Ws get significantly better (and warmer) once they've burned in.

    So, a few questions...

    Is there a "best" way to burn in speakers, or is it just a matter of playing them for a while?

    What are the changes I can expect to happen once my speakers have burned in?

    How long will it take for the speakers to burn in?

    Thanks much for your help,


    An appreciative novice

  2. #2
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    Congrats on your new toys!

    Quote Originally Posted by bletchley
    Hi-

    I just purchased a pair of B&W 805s and a Bryston B60 amp. I've read, here and elsewhere, that the B&Ws get significantly better (and warmer) once they've burned in.

    So, a few questions...

    Is there a "best" way to burn in speakers, or is it just a matter of playing them for a while?

    What are the changes I can expect to happen once my speakers have burned in?

    How long will it take for the speakers to burn in?

    Thanks much for your help,


    An appreciative novice
    As you need to burn in both the speaks and the amps, you might as well do both at the same time. Just grab a cd, preferably with a lot of transients for your amp to deal with (swing is good), push replay, and let it be for a few days. I believe B&W recommends 50 hrs for the driver properties to loosen up but I'd have to look at the manual to be sure. My experience has been that you're looking at closer to 100+ hours for them to really sing. At first, the speakers may sound a bit shrill with recessed mids and very a very thin overall presentation. While the tweeters settle down pretty quickly it takes the kevlar mid-woofer a good while to really settle in and fill in the lower octaves. This in itself will make the tweets appear less aggressive as they are balanced out by the mids and lows. Your amp in turn will be charging the caps and whatnot and the sound will go through a similar transformation as it should become warmer and not as thin sounding. Mind you, a lot of "burning-in" can be attributed to pyschoacoustics. It simply takes a while for your brain to recalibrate and become accustomed to the new sound you're throwing at it.

    Hope this helps.

  3. #3
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    Not sure if burning in the speakers does all that much, but in complying with standard audio policy, I did do a burn in. I didn't want my CD player to be running for 4 days straight so I got my receiver and dialed in a not in service FM station and played the pink noise at relatively low volumes for about 100 hours.

  4. #4
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    Burn in is important for all new audio equipment.
    amps and stuff usually sound too bright and mechanical. Burnng in warms things up a bit. Speakers are the same. Just play some music on them for hours and hours. The longer the better. Its good also if you go on vacation and just leave it on for a weeek or something. I know some amps have been reported to take 500hours to start sounding great. Have fun with your new toys.

  5. #5
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    It is extremely doubtful that so called burning in of audio equipment has any real effect. If it does, this would be a loud alarm to stay away from any products which the manufacturer says requires it. IMO, equipment should leave the factory ready to be used as intended. Once the product is out in the field in the customer's use, the manufacturer has no way to control what will happen to it. If mechanical fatigue or voice coil heating have any effect on performance, when and where do the changes stop. If the manufacturer feels that a burn in of his product is necessary, he should do it before it leaves that factory and the final tests should demonstrate that it performs within spec and is stable for future use. I think most so called burn in is just becoming accostomed to the sound of something new and different that what we are used to hearing.

  6. #6
    DIY Dude poneal's Avatar
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    I personally think this burn in rage is flat out garbage. IMO that most equipement has been turned on for a number of hours before being shipped. I consider it burned in when it doesn't smell like electronics burning anymore. This rubbish about burning in speakers and electronics has no scientific base as far as Im concerned and is similiar to snake oil for automechanics. Just my take on the whole thing. So, if you want to believe them, then I say that I have a bridge across the atlantic that I can sell you.

  7. #7
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    Does it matter if its garbage or not?
    it doesnt cost all that much money...and you have to use your speakers anyways in normal burn-ins. If you turn it on for music...then you are in effect burning them in as well. Some people find it helps some people it may not. Some people find biwire helps some people say it doesnt. If audio was so scientific, then people would be able to get it right. The problem is that it not. Its an art not a science.

  8. #8
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    I found the best way to burn in speakers is to use "pink noise." This can be found on test CD's. If you have a tuner even better; use FM noise. Play the CD on repeat for a few days, or the FM noise. Face the speakers together, about a foot apart, and invert phase on one of the speakers. Put red lead on the speaker wire to black binding post on speaker back, and place black lead on speaker wire to red binding post. Do not worry, this will not harm your amp. What this causes is the speakers to be out of phase. So as one woofer pushes the other pulls, and so forth.

    I personally do not really believe in "break in period" per se, but what can it hurt?
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    A lot of these burn-in recommendations date back to the days of vacuum tube components when warming up and burning in the tubes did result in audible changes to the sound. With a solid state amp, I've yet to see any compelling evidence that the sound substantially changes with age (except if switches and buttons begin shorting out). With speakers, I did compare my speakers out of the box with a pair of dealer samples, and the sound was audibly different (more compressed sounding, harsher higher, less punch in the bass). But, it took very little time for the differences to become inconsequential (I just put on a CD and let it play, went out to dinner, and when I came back they were set). IMO, this is a non-issue because it occurs with everyday usage, and there's no right or wrong way to do it (i.e. if you break in your speakers with a pink noise, it will not eventually sound any different than if you played 100 hours of classical music through them).

  10. #10
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    Don't kid yourself. For every sucker idea, there is a product to sell to some sucker who will buy it. There are products available to help you burn in anything from you amplifier, speakers to your wire. And the guy who sells it will try to convince you that there is no other right way to do it except to use his expensive gizmo.

  11. #11
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    Burn in thought....

    ...assuming burn in was a real issue and a given speaker went from "virgin tight " to the "sublime", why would we assume that the process would stop there?......might not that product become a loose piece of crap after a short period of time? The point is that most products are what they are going to be right out of the box, with a small variation over a period of time due to the rigors of age and use....they whole notion is absurd and if a manufacturer sells products based on this absurd notion, I would avoid their prouducts....

  12. #12
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    Well stated! However, here is a thought. Let us conclude that there in fact maybe "small variations" over a period of time. Now let us say that we purchased a few new products. Could there in fact then be a fairly noticiable difference - to the overall sound of ones system - when you add up all the small variations of all the products? Seems possible to me.

    Most, if not all, high-end manufaturers suggest a certain break in peroid for their components. These are the same manufacturers that make some of the best sounding and quality built products out there. I would rather own, say Mark Levinson gear, than Denon. I believe that not only does the Levinson gear sound better but it is built to a much higher standard and quality. Now is it worth the price difference, perhaps not, but that depends on your pocket book, and in may cases ones ego!
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  13. #13
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    Firstly...

    ...the term as it is currently used(or abused, to be more accurate) is a misnomer...

    "burn-in" is a process which measures the time required for the unit under test to fail...not improve!

    I would avoid any component that requires a break-in (appropriate term) period...hook it up, plug it in and go!!! If it's gonna' fail, make it do so within the first few days, as this will give you grounds for replacement(as opposed to repairs) if required...

    SS components reach operational stability in a very short time...tubes longer(unless left in a "stand-by mode)...things that require any period longer than that are probably in the process breaking down...speakers should be good to go right outta' the box.

    The myth of "burn-in" just goes along with all the other dubious "audiophile" claptrap. Besides, how would running your system on interstation noise, white noise, pink noise or any other non-musical source reveal any real flaws? Answer: it won't!

    As Debbi wrote...what happens after we have reached the plateau of "burn-in" nirvana...does it continue to improve? Reach stasis? Start to cr@p-out?

    Audie

  14. #14
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    Once again...you listen to music while you burn in...
    if its starts to sound better then good! if it starts to crap out then you got problems. Take out the warrenty. You have nothing to lose during a burn in. The term burn-in in Audio is not the time to take to fail. Its like shoes. you "break" them in. Do they actually break? nope. they actually feel more comfortable afterwards. One of the reasons why speakers sound better after a burn in is because of the foam or rubber surround that takes time to get flexible. Or so they say. We are not talking about the controversial speaker cable here which can end up costing thousands. We are talking about waiting for a sufficient time before you start really listening to things closely and give a rating.

    And anyways...if it works for you then great! if not...what can you lose? nothin much...

  15. #15
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    AND away we go-o-o-o-...

    "...The term burn-in in Audio is not the time to take to fail..."

    And you can put your boots in the oven, but that don't make 'em biscuits! Audiophiles have their own jargon, but when it comes to right down to it, the accepted definition used by designers and technicians for ab-so-lute-ly years and years is as follows:

    Burn-in: noun The continuous operation of a device as a test for defects or failure prior to putting it to use c. Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary...

    PERIOD!

    "... Its like shoes. you "break" them in. Do they actually break? nope. they actually feel more comfortable afterwards..."

    Well, yeah they do "break"...the leather fiber starts to break down due to flexing and the stitching starts to stretch and become less taut, the layers shift and they start to, lessee, what's that term...oh yeah, wear out...the first step(no pun intended)to the bin.

    "...if its starts to sound better then good!..."

    Sorry! The only thing breaking-in is your ears...you're getting into it and you are becoming familiar with the sound...no magic, no mystery, no secret handshakes...

    "...One of the reasons why speakers sound better after a burn in is because of the foam or rubber surround that takes time to get flexible. Or so they say..."

    Who say? The ones who re-define words because it makes them sound as if they know what they are talking about?...the techno-babble talkers? The ones who suggest sand bags and styrofoam cups?...Speaker surrounds ARE flexible, they have to be...but, like shoes, that flexibility eventually reaches its' limit and...

    "...We are not talking about the controversial speaker cable here which can end up costing thousands. We are talking about waiting for a sufficient time before you start really listening to things closely and give a rating..."

    Esoteric wiring itself is a load! You should start listening closely immediately, how else will your ears break-in?

    "...And anyways...if it works for you then great! if not...what can you lose? nothin much..."

    Agreed. Just don't take any of it as pre-ordained gospel.

    Audie
    Last edited by Audie Oghaisle; 04-20-2004 at 10:41 AM.

  16. #16
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    You can say whatever you want Audie...
    but if it works then do it.
    Nevermind definitions. They mean nothing in the real world.
    What really does matter if perception.
    The word "sorry" can be taken as sincere or sarcastic. Depends on perception.
    Nevermind the meaning in the websters dictionary.
    Do anything to achieve the right sound.
    Whether it be putting a penny on the headpiece of your tonearm or changing your tubes. It doesnt matter because its all subjective. An art not a science. BTW...to EVERYONE who thinks science is proving stuff...please dont misunderstand...science is a process of disproving.

    Are you going to analyse my post sentence by sentence again?

  17. #17
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    Well, lessee...

    "...Whether it be putting a penny on the headpiece of your tonearm or changing your tubes..."

    A penny on the tonearm isn't the magic of copper...it's adding tracking force to the stylus. Changing tubes is a matter of upkeep...new tubes can sound quite different than the old, quite simply because they are new and the older ones can degrade e.g become microphonic or gassy...

    "...It doesnt matter because its all subjective..."

    Those two items you've mentioned aren't subjective at all...quite the opposite...

    "...Nevermind definitions. They mean nothing in the real world..."

    Phew, you really believe that?

    "... An art not a science..."

    Music is art...hi-fi is hardware...no matter how you slice it, dice it or try to romanticize it...hardware is science...

    "...Are you going to analyse my post sentence by sentence again?..."

    Not if I can avoid it!

    Audie
    Last edited by Audie Oghaisle; 04-20-2004 at 12:14 PM.

  18. #18
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    I never implied the magic of copper
    Im just saying...do whatever it takes to achieve the right effect.
    I meant the effect is subjective. i might think it helps...you might not. And some people DO find a difference in a change of tubes. The penny example wasnt a good one I admit.
    The hardware you buy is to enhance one's musical preference. What type of hardware depends on personal taste. Sounds like Bturk.

    "Phew you really believe that?" is that a personal attack?

  19. #19
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    Again.....

    Assuming that the speaker does change for the better during the "burn in" Period, what leads us to assume the process would stop at the optimum point? It seems reasonable to assume that such a constantly changing "organism" would continue to transform itself in unpredictible ways....pehaps to the point where a good speaker became a bad sounding speaker...it doesnt make much sense and it seems dubious that manufacturers would want to create such an animal or warranty it.

  20. #20
    Forum Regular lumiere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debbi
    Assuming that the speaker does change for the burning" period, what leads us to assume the process would stop at the optimum point? It seems reasonable to assume that such a constantly changing "organism" would continue to transform itself in unpredictible ways....pehaps to the point where a good speaker became a bad sounding speaker...it doesnt make much sense and it seems dubious that manufacturers would want to create such an animal or warranty it.


    After I was born, I grew up for a while, and that stoped at some point (Not necessarily optimum ). Now I'm just getting older, like a pair of speakers. Everything changes. When you buy a new car, usually you wait 'til it has some miles before you take it on a long trip. Why would that be different with audio equipment?
    Last edited by lumiere; 04-20-2004 at 06:48 PM.

  21. #21
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    The machining of automobile engines while better than it used to be is in an entirely different league than the precision of manufacturing audio equipment. An automobile engine undergoes final machining while it is in use. And not only does the manufacturer accept this as a necessary evil, he gives advice to the owner on the way to get the best results. So the final seating of valves, machining of cylinder walls to match piston rings is done in use, not because they want to, but because they have to. The expense of running every engine for the equivalent of 10,000 or 20,000 miles is just too great unless your company happens to be named Rolls Royce. Furthermore, this is equipment that has an admittedly sometimes long but limited life expectancy after which it is to be discarded or rebuilt at considerable effort and expense. In other words, by its very nature, most of its important parts are expected to wear out.

    Not so for stereo equipment. It should in most cases (except for vacuum tubes) have an virtually unlimited life expectancy or at least one measured in many decades with little or no minor repair. For example, although some older loudspeakers need to have their ourter foam suspension replaced due to rot, many don't. Solid state audio amplifiers and preamplifiers also seem to have a limitless lifespan except for minor cleaning of switches and potentiometers.

    It is in the nature of most electronic equipment that it is intended to meet certain performance specifications consistant with a prototype and stay that way for its lifespan. In fact, at least one company McInotosh used to (and still may) give a lifetime guarantee that its amplifiers and preamplifiers would meet or exceed published specificatons or it would be repaired for free. KLH once boasted that all of its production loudspeaker would match the prototype withing one decibel across its entire range. You cannot have that if the performance is changing after it leaves the factory. If it does change, it is inherently unstable and beyond the control of the builder. At that point, what will happen to it is anybody's guess.

  22. #22
    RGA
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    Well do what I did and learn the hard way. Enter the next 10k run your town holds. Buy a Brand New set of shoes the night before - wear them in the run.

    Now despite the pain of blisters that YOU WILL get from doing this keep them and wear them around after your blisters heal up. Then in 6 months enter a 10K run and wear those same shoes - no blisters! Yes because they are broken in. If it has a moving part it has wear then there IS break in.

    Whether a speaker changes enough to audibly hear is something else. But anybody who wsays there is no MEASURED difference with break-in is a moron. It has been shown and proven that after a duration of play speakers change in measurement and will effect ALL speakers from ALL companies in the history of loudspeakers including Acoustic Research = period end of discussion. Now whether those changes are audible or even within the audible spectrum is another matter - but if it moves and there is any friction then there is change. Otherwise a speaker would never ever wear out - or an amp or a cable - and given time they all will - but now we're talking decades - not 30 hours. In fact it was a b&W that was measured and tested out of box and after several hours that saw a very slight cange to the frequency response. (CDM 1NT).

    If it sounds really bad out of the box I would worry. But few tests have been done that anyone can point to and the AES is hardly a reliable source if you want the human perspective. Engineers are a bit clueless on the field of human study which is why they tout test tools over credible science. I'm not sure if enginners are taught to have narrow visions without seeing the big picture or engineering as a profession attract people who are sub par wannabe scientists but they sure know math at a high level and how to calculate statistics - calculating and understanding and deciphering what is important and what is not important are different things.

    Burning in cannot be shown to work because it is an impossible test - a second pair is not the same pair - you need the same pair for said test - acoustic memory would then be too long - can't test it can't be done - and no pair is the same otherwise why would some be lemons and some not? Ahh because they are not the same.

    Since burning requires nothing other than playing the speaker/componant in the exact same manner as you would if you never heard of burning in - then I don't get the argument. Costs you nothing - play the system. Play it for a couple of weeks if it doesn't sound good then get something else.

    Common sense is the only thing this burning in fuss requires.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bletchley
    Hi-

    I just purchased a pair of B&W 805s and a Bryston B60 amp. I've read, here and elsewhere, that the B&Ws get significantly better (and warmer) once they've burned in.

    So, a few questions...

    Is there a "best" way to burn in speakers, or is it just a matter of playing them for a while?

    What are the changes I can expect to happen once my speakers have burned in?

    How long will it take for the speakers to burn in?

    Thanks much for your help,


    An appreciative novice
    There is no evidence to support that there is a need to burn in audio components, including speakers and especially SS amps. Just another audio myth, urban audio legend, voodoo, bs, so you don't get buyers remorse and gives you time to adjust to the fact that you spent a lot of money on audio components.

    Claiming that it makes a difference is empty without evidence to support it as this is indeed can be tested very well. But, if one wants to believe in the easter bunny, santa, psychics, I suppose they are allowed to do that.

    Just enjoy your new components from day one and stop worrying.
    mtrycrafts

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debbi
    Assuming that the speaker does change for the better during the "burn in" Period, what leads us to assume the process would stop at the optimum point? It seems reasonable to assume that such a constantly changing "organism" would continue to transform itself in unpredictible ways....pehaps to the point where a good speaker became a bad sounding speaker...it doesnt make much sense and it seems dubious that manufacturers would want to create such an animal or warranty it.
    You might look at some of the speaker manuals that are available from the manufacturer's web sites. Among those offering speakers that are supposed to sound better after break-in (according to the manuals) are B&W, Mirage, JBL, and Theil. The B&W manual for the Nautilus 801 gives some explanations on why break-in improves the sound.

    I guess the change that occurs in a speaker is a function of time and use, but I don't know if it progresses in a linear way. Maybe there is a plateau after the break-in.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92135011
    If audio was so scientific, then people would be able to get it right. The problem is that it not. Its an art not a science.

    WRONG. What do you think designed and built your audio? Art? LOL.
    NO, art created the music, science created the ability for you to enjoy it at home without human musicians playing for you.

    People, audiophiles don't get it right because they are too gullible and there is a marketeer to sell you on whatever you think you want. If you knew, htere would be less marketers out there, much less.
    mtrycrafts

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