Are Bose 301 Speakers the best in there price range?

[njspeer]

Uhm, sorry, but "no go" on this.

I think you'll find more beer drinkers here than wine sippers. The cable debate starts up all the time. There are plenty of down to Earth people on this site. They don't go by what magazines tell them. They go listen. In fact, it's the magazines and commercials that have the masses believing that Bose is the best. Bose are just OK. They are the foothills to the Rockies of hi-fi. But not the top of the mountain by any means.
When you buy a speaker, the money you spend goes several places. Some to advertisements, some to the companie's profit, some to research, and some to actually building the speaker. Bose spends more than anyone on research and advertisement. And they have the highest profit margins than almost anyone. That leaves very little left over to actually build them.
I don't want to bash Bose. They make an OK speaker. But far from the best at their price point.

I'm encouraged to know there are more beer drinkers than wine sippers here. IMO there's nothing worse than a wine and cheese party. However, my point was not directed at wine sippers but rather wine tasters. There's a difference. A wine taster thinks he can detect all sorts of microscopic differences in wines with his taste buds, and then uses this delusion to bash lay-people wines, and justifies paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a bottle of wine. Wine tasters also, coincidentally, all like the same wines, and of course they aren't the wines that ordinary people like. And they are the same type of people who buy solid Ag cables, paint the edges or the CDs green, buy $20,000 DACs and claim Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Bose speakers are the best; I'm sure they're not, but they do sound pretty good for their price point. If they didn't Bose would go out of business. And when someone claims they are a bad deal at any price they're just an audiophile trying to fit in.

[Mike Anderson]

IMO there's nothing worse than a wine and cheese party.

Yeah, I can't stand wine and cheese. You're right -- there truly is nothing worse: Having your head sawed off with a rusty shank; plucking your eyes out with a dull spoon; having nails jammed into your eardrums. All of these things are far less painful than have to consume wine and cheese.

Clearly, people who do so are just looking for an excuse to spend money and act like effete liberal snobs.

[JohnMichael]

Yeah, I can't stand wine and cheese. You're right -- there truly is nothing worse: Having your head sawed off with a rusty shank; plucking your eyes out with a dull spoon; having nails jammed into your eardrums. All of these things are far less painful than have to consume wine and cheese.

Clearly, people who do so are just looking for an excuse to spend money and act like effete liberal snobs.

I resemble that remark. A case of definition of character.

[Bernd]

I'm encouraged to know there are more beer drinkers than wine sippers here. IMO there's nothing worse than a wine and cheese party. However, my point was not directed at wine sippers but rather wine tasters. There's a difference. A wine taster thinks he can detect all sorts of microscopic differences in wines with his taste buds, and then uses this delusion to bash lay-people wines, and justifies paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a bottle of wine. Wine tasters also, coincidentally, all like the same wines, and of course they aren't the wines that ordinary people like. And they are the same type of people who buy solid Ag cables, paint the edges or the CDs green, buy $20,000 DACs and claim Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Bose speakers are the best; I'm sure they're not, but they do sound pretty good for their price point. If they didn't Bose would go out of business. And when someone claims they are a bad deal at any price they're just an audiophile trying to fit in.

I like good wine,beer, music, good food and sex, so what does that make me? No answer requiered.
In your musings you are talking in a negative way about audiophiles. Once you listen to a great set up you would understand what it's all about. I run three systems in my home. All from different areas of development and with a different price tag (budget to high end), and all play music for my enjoyment and all sound good to me.
Just because something sells the most does not make it the best.
It's all about the music.

Peace

Bernd

[markw]

IJust because something sells the most does not make it the best.

Unless, of course, you're a shareholder in the company. Sell dem Big Macs with Cheese. ...do you wanna supersize that, sir?

[topspeed]

I'm encouraged to know there are more beer drinkers than wine sippers here. IMO there's nothing worse than a wine and cheese party. However, my point was not directed at wine sippers but rather wine tasters. There's a difference. A wine taster thinks he can detect all sorts of microscopic differences in wines with his taste buds, and then uses this delusion to bash lay-people wines, and justifies paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a bottle of wine. Wine tasters also, coincidentally, all like the same wines, and of course they aren't the wines that ordinary people like. And they are the same type of people who buy solid Ag cables, paint the edges or the CDs green, buy $20,000 DACs and claim Bose speakers are a bad deal at any price. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Bose speakers are the best; I'm sure they're not, but they do sound pretty good for their price point. If they didn't Bose would go out of business. And when someone claims they are a bad deal at any price they're just an audiophile trying to fit in.

For a NooB, you sure are making a lot of bold accusations here. Just so I'm clear, lemme see if I get this straight:

1) If you don't like Bose, you are a lemming simply following the other audiophiles off the cliff. It has nothing to do with their measured fr containing more peaks and valleys than the Appalachians or build quality ranking right up there with that suit you bought at the 99 Cent Store.

2) All audiophiles are ego driven lunatics interested more in the name than the sound quality.

3) Wine drinkers are drunk audiophiles. I.E. egomaniacal snobs trying to suppress the heathens and unwashed.

I'm not so bold to pidgeonhole the masses with useless labels, although I know what you are...

[canuckle]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Bose speakers are the best; I'm sure they're not, but they do sound pretty good for their price point. If they didn't Bose would go out of business. And when someone claims they are a bad deal at any price they're just an audiophile trying to fit in.

There's so many things wrong there. The whole point of all these flame attacks on Bose is that they are *not* a good deal at their price point. Their price point is 5 times higher than comparable speakers from other manufacturers. They are built out of cheap crap materials and paper cones. $14 goes into components and $100 into marketting. The marketting is why Bose doesn't go out of business, not the components. People will buy garbage if you can convince them it's treasure.

You keep jumping back to the defensive position that your ancient 901's for $275 are a good deal. But you might want to note that this thread is not about you or your garage sale purchases. Someone asked others' opinions on a pair of new 301s as the best speakers available for the money. They are not. They're not the best speakers for half the money. That's what the thread is about and people should be free to pass on that advice to someone who's considering a truly terrible purchase. Enjoy your 901s. Don't try to slag off people who appreciate a higher standard of quality and want to let someone know that they can also have good sound for less money.

[njspeer]

There's so many things wrong there. The whole point of all these flame attacks on Bose is that they are *not* a good deal at their price point. Their price point is 5 times higher than comparable speakers from other manufacturers. They are built out of cheap crap materials and paper cones. $14 goes into components and $100 into marketting. The marketting is why Bose doesn't go out of business, not the components. People will buy garbage if you can convince them it's treasure.

I'm afraid you underestimate the intelligence of the consumer. Hype as a business strategy will only get you so far. I've already admitted that (at MSRP) Bose speakers probably aren't the best deal out there, but that should be no surprise. All big name companies charge a premium. Nevertheless, you can't just hype your way to success without delivering a quality product. That business model just doesn't work. I'm sorry to go against the grain of established audiophile dogma, but what you're saying just isn't true. The truth is that Bose bashing is simply a way for audiophiles to stand out from the masses (period). If audiophiles were really ONLY concerned about value (as you claim) then they would go off on companies that sell things like this:

http://www.amusicdirect.com/products...?sku=ABEDDBEAM

or this

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...at-7-2005.html

or

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina28.htm

or

http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm


Yep. I could go one, but I think I've made my point for now.

[GMichael]

I'm afraid you underestimate the intelligence of the consumer. Hype as a business strategy will only get you so far. I've already admitted that (at MSRP) Bose speakers probably aren't the best deal out there, but that should be no surprise. All big name companies charge a premium. Nevertheless, you can't just hype your way to success without delivering a quality product. That business model just doesn't work. I'm sorry to go against the grain of established audiophile dogma, but what you're saying just isn't true. The truth is that Bose bashing is simply a way for audiophiles to stand out from the masses (period). If audiophiles were really ONLY concerned about value (as you claim) then they would go off on companies that sell things like this:

http://www.amusicdirect.com/products...?sku=ABEDDBEAM

or this

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...at-7-2005.html

or

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina28.htm

or

http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm


Yep. I could go one, but I think I've made my point for now.

I don't think that you will ever understand the truth. Good luck in life.

[njspeer]

I don't think that you will ever understand the truth. Good luck in life.

Maybe, but you'll still never catch me paying $2000 for a wooden knob. LOL!

BTW, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I put on Bob Dylan's "Don't Think Twice," crunk up the volume on the ol' Sansui, and my vintage 901s sound good - really good.

[GMichael]

Maybe, but you'll still never catch me paying $2000 for a wooden knob. LOL!

BTW, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I put on Bob Dylan's "Don't Think Twice," crunk up the volume on the ol' Sansui, and my vintage 901s sound good - really good.

Repeat after me. There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home.

[canuckle]

The truth is that Bose bashing is simply a way for audiophiles to stand out from the masses (period). If audiophiles were really ONLY concerned about value (as you claim) then they would go off on companies that sell things like this: (blah blah) Yep. I could go one, but I think I've made my point for now.

Firstly, I don't know of any audiophiles concerned with value really. They care about sound. Good sound. Something you don't have. Something people can have for a lot cheaper than Bose can give them for a ton more money.

I'd be happy to make fun of any of those products you list. Fortunately, people haven't been fooled into thinking that they're any good so there's little point. And the fact they exist doesn't mean Bose is quality so mentioning them is rather pointless. And the fact that Bose has existed for a long time is also not a sign that they're quality. If you want an example of how marketting can work as a long-term business strategy, have a look at Bose... they're the quintessential example.

Nice of you to group everybody into one group and tell us how they think though, thanks. Also good of you to ignore everyone's comments about black and white truths. No answers for the fact that they're plastic boxes with paper cones and low-grade wiring? No answers for Bose's mysterious absence of publishing any statistics on any of their products anywhere ever? Frequency response graphs published by third parties that show anything but flat frequency response, any idea how that is just in audiophile's imaginations? No comments on the mess that is Bose stereo imaging? Maybe until you can explain how all that crap wrapped up in a box makes good sound you want to bow out of the discussion. Oh no wait, I already know your answer... "that's just what audiophiles say!" Excellent, constructive, brilliant, good job!

[njspeer]

Firstly, I don't know of any audiophiles concerned with value really. They care about sound. Good sound. Something you don't have. Something people can have for a lot cheaper than Bose can give them for a ton more money.

Is it me, or do these sentences contradict each other? Anyway, they definitely contradict what you said in you're other post. See below.

[from prior post]The whole point of all these flame attacks on Bose is that they are *not* a good deal at their price point.

I guess we can just make it up as we go along.

Nice of you to group everybody into one group and tell us how they think though, thanks.

Hey, it's called anthropology. But wait. Didn't we just group everybody into one group in our last post? Let's find out. See below.

[from prior post]People will buy garbage if you can convince them it's treasure.

He he. Like I said: we can just make it up as we go along.

[Woochifer]

I'm afraid you underestimate the intelligence of the consumer. Hype as a business strategy will only get you so far. I've already admitted that (at MSRP) Bose speakers probably aren't the best deal out there, but that should be no surprise. All big name companies charge a premium.

But, Bose charges the biggest premium among the "big name" audio companies for the performance that they deliver. That's what people consistently call Bose out on.

A Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system will cost anywhere from $1,600 to $4,000. In contrast, Sony's DVD Dream systems cost $400 to $1,500 (except for their $2,000 wireless system). Yamaha's Cinemastation integrated systems cost $450 to $650. So, tell me where's the premium that these guys are charging if the Bose systems routinely cost 3x, 4x, or up to 10x more? Or are you trying to forward the argument that Sony and Yamaha aren't "big name companies"?

Nevertheless, you can't just hype your way to success without delivering a quality product. That business model just doesn't work. I'm sorry to go against the grain of established audiophile dogma, but what you're saying just isn't true.

Nothing to do with going against established audiophile dogma. Your posts are offering up plenty of unsubstantiated claims and strawman arguments that have little basis in reality. Not all audiophiles and hobbyists subscribe to the lunatic fringe pseudoscience that you've taken it upon yourself to ascribe to everybody who simply takes Bose to task for the lax sound quality that they're offering up at a specific price point. I mean, what is "established audiophile dogma" anyway? How does pointing out superior sound for the same price constitute a dogmatic approach?

Like I said earlier, compared to a TV speaker, a Bose Lifestyle system will sound pretty damn good. But, if you line it up against comparably priced competition, the performance deficiencies are all too easy to listen for and measure.

The truth is that Bose bashing is simply a way for audiophiles to stand out from the masses (period).

The truth is that many people on this board have owned Bose products before (usually purchased as their first audio system), so their disdain comes through experience. Who better to criticize Bose than one of their former customers? The truth is that I've never met anyone who at one time or another owned a Bose system, and then for their next audio system, purchased another Bose system.

Earlier you talked about underestmating the intelligence of the consumer, yet here you are claiming that people's opinions about a product are formed only because they want to "stand out from the masses." Obviously, it hasn't occurred to you that people bash Bose because they've done their due diligence and comparisons (something that you likely haven't done), and come to their own conclusions about the product quality and value (or lack thereof) that Bose represents.

If audiophiles were really ONLY concerned about value (as you claim) then they would go off on companies that sell things like this:

......

Yep. I could go one, but I think I've made my point for now.

Another strawman argument, since not all audiophiles purchase the kinds of products that you link to. This board has had plenty of debates over the years regarding the validity of expensive and questionably effective tweaks, so your labeling exercise once again does not hold up. When it comes to Bose, it's very much a question of value/performance for the money, and whether their design approaches (such as the direct/reflecting drivers and bandpass bass module) produce worse sound quality than more widely accepted approaches.

Trying to muddy the waters with presumptions about how audiophiles like to spend their money has nothing to do with why people criticize Bose. I know that I've never colored my CDs with green markers, or bought a "dual beam clarifier", or used ceramic cable lifters, etc. I've based my opinions on actual listenings and comparisons. And on that basis, Bose comes up consistently short. Obviously, a lot of others have come to similar conclusions after doing their listenings.

[GMichael]

But, Bose charges the biggest premium among the "big name" audio companies for the performance that they deliver. That's what people consistently call Bose out on.

A Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system will cost anywhere from $1,600 to $4,000. In contrast, Sony's DVD Dream systems cost $400 to $1,500 (except for their $2,000 wireless system). Yamaha's Cinemastation integrated systems cost $450 to $650. So, tell me where's the premium that these guys are charging if the Bose systems routinely cost 3x, 4x, or up to 10x more? Or are you trying to forward the argument that Sony and Yamaha aren't "big name companies"?



Nothing to do with going against established audiophile dogma. Your posts are offering up plenty of unsubstantiated claims and strawman arguments that have little basis in reality. Not all audiophiles and hobbyists subscribe to the lunatic fringe pseudoscience that you've taken it upon yourself to ascribe to everybody who simply takes Bose to task for the lax sound quality that they're offering up at a specific price point. I mean, what is "established audiophile dogma" anyway? How does pointing out superior sound for the same price constitute a dogmatic approach?

Like I said earlier, compared to a TV speaker, a Bose Lifestyle system will sound pretty damn good. But, if you line it up against comparably priced competition, the performance deficiencies are all too easy to listen for and measure.



The truth is that many people on this board have owned Bose products before (usually purchased as their first audio system), so their disdain comes through experience. Who better to criticize Bose than one of their former customers? The truth is that I've never met anyone who at one time or another owned a Bose system, and then for their next audio system, purchased another Bose system.

Earlier you talked about underestmating the intelligence of the consumer, yet here you are claiming that people's opinions about a product are formed only because they want to "stand out from the masses." Obviously, it hasn't occurred to you that people bash Bose because they've done their due diligence and comparisons (something that you likely haven't done), and come to their own conclusions about the product quality and value (or lack thereof) that Bose represents.



Another strawman argument, since not all audiophiles purchase the kinds of products that you link to. This board has had plenty of debates over the years regarding the validity of expensive and questionably effective tweaks, so your labeling exercise once again does not hold up. When it comes to Bose, it's very much a question of value/performance for the money, and whether their design approaches (such as the direct/reflecting drivers and bandpass bass module) produce worse sound quality than more widely accepted approaches.

Trying to muddy the waters with presumptions about how audiophiles like to spend their money has nothing to do with why people criticize Bose. I know that I've never colored my CDs with green markers, or bought a "dual beam clarifier", or used ceramic cable lifters, etc. I've based my opinions on actual listenings and comparisons. And on that basis, Bose comes up consistently short. Obviously, a lot of others have come to similar conclusions after doing their listenings.

This all makes perfect sense. So I predict that he will not understand any of it. He will twist it all up so that it will have a new meaning. Here's what he will read, "Bose is great and everyone here just says that it isn't because we are a bunch of sheep following each other around sniffing each other's butts." We all just spend thousands on wooden knobs and sonic snott.
Forget the facts. They don't mean a thing to him.

[L.J.]

Well this has been a fun one to read.......it's been awhile

[GMichael]

Well this has been a fun one to read.......it's been awhile

Almost like the good ol' days huh? Can you pass me the popcorn?

[Resident Loser]

...when Polk's were considered an "insider" speaker...spoken of with reverence and in hushed tones in darkened hallways...but...out comes the advertising and mass-market sales from BB and CC and whoever...get my drift...so in some respect our Bose fan is correct...the more sales nearly anything gets seems inversely proportional to the opinion of the audiopile community...

Are Bose products overpriced?

Yes...someone has to pay for all the advertising...think along the lines of "free" tee-vee...every jar of tomato sauce or 6-pack of beer could be much cheaper if they weren't advertised so heavily...

Do many of their products fail (Lifestyle sytems, etc.) at any sort of integration with standard RCA-terminated gear?

Yes...but they are marketed and sold to folks who want quick and clean installation/enjoyment...they achieve the corporate goal in spades...

I personally have a problem with closed-end systems AND the operating parameters of their bass modules AND non-Bose single summing subs in general.

Are they the best?

By someone's definition they are...name recognition is priceless...

The 301s are a decent speaker...but...they do have the sonic signature of the Bose Direct/Reflecting speakers...which is not the same as any direct radiator. Can't be...their design and intent are quite far apart in practice. Comparison of the two is the proverbial "apples/oranges" IMO. If you own 901s as fronts, the 301s make perfect rears...the 301s as fronts, approximate the sound of the 901s, but with a lesser degree of success of the "stereo everywhere" presentation...

As an aside, 901s can be used as a part of an HT setup only if the AV reciever has a true "tape mon" ckt or if one plans to use outboard power amps...the 901 EQ requires either one for the speakers to operate properly...Bose can supply compatibility info on request.

IMNSHO, those used to the direct-radiator types of loudspeakers, will never be happy with the Bose sound or presentation and quite converesly, once you identify with the qualities of a properly set-up set of 901s and listen into them, nearly everything else fails by comparison...feel free to make all the insulting remarks you might care to...DQ-10s were in the running, but there was a sonic asymmetry (which I later found out was subsequently rectified with the mirror-image mod) that disturbed me....About 20yrs. ago I heard an electrostatic that compared somewhat favorably, but I detected a distinct disconnect, if you will, between the dynamic woofer and the 'stat panels...plus they required too much room and too much $$$.

Out of curiosity, how many manufacturers would sell you the latest version of an item for the same price that you paid 20yrs ago. When my 301-IIs fell victim to foam-rot. that was the offer from Bose when I inquired about replacement parts...seems like pretty attentive customer support to me. As I recall, Skeptic had a similar offer re: his 901s...

My 901-IIs (MSRP $525/pr) are now over 30yrs. old...that says something...I haven't grown weary of them and they still do what they're supposed to...quite well I might add. Bass response is second-to-none in my highly anecdotal opinion. I rarely admit to owning them...take a wild guess as to why that might be...

Would I buy them again?

Well, mine were the last acoustic-suspension design before they went to the ported acoustic matrix...I understand the newer vintages aren't quite up-to-snuff in some regards and listening in a showroom leaves lots to be desired...I really would have to bring them home to a suitable environment for a fair evaluation...My response would be a definite I dunno'...problem is, I've not heard anything else in recent memory that I found acceptable...and yes, I do listen, I'm not deaf and, being a musician, I know what live sounds like...but then again recordings, more often than not, rarely give the same sonic cues that one gets in a live presentation, so that might be a moot point.

Are they for everyone? No...can't think of anything that satisfies everyone...but that's why they make vanilla and chocolate.

jimHJJ(...which is why I hardly make specific recommendations and suggest folks listen for themselves...)

[JeffKnob]

This argument sounds like our last presidential election. There was tons of proof that Bush (Bose) was horrible but because of propoganda (marketing), people were molded to think he was the best there ever was.