Bookshelf Speakers for under $500

[kexodusc]

I think another point I can't stress enough is that just because a 50,000 + sq.ft store sells a speaker doesn't mean it's bad, and not as good as a "high-end boutique's" comparably priced speaker.

Granted, I can't really think of any great BestBuy/FutureShop speakers right now...they sell some decent Velodyne subs...but still. We live in an age where it's cool to be "anti-mainstream". Exotic is better etc. That's unfortunate.

[RGA]

Totem is now sold in A&B Sound.

I am going to use Soundhounds as an example and I really don't want to get into a big arguement over this because not all dealers are lying thieves. Firstly, in the Vancouver, Vancoucer Island area there are four Major high end dealers. 3 of which started out as partners at Sounhounds in Victoria. They split and each runs their own high end store. Hi -fi Center and Soundhounds both carried Totem. Hi-Fi Center dropped them.

Soundhounds still carries their name and are still listed as a dealer but they sold all of 6 speakers from the companies entire catalog in all of 2003. They do not compete with other speakers in the store and it's that simple. Yes they're small and yes they have a terrific gee wiz factor. "Wow look how impressive they sound for such small speakers." But I don't get it frankly. They don't play very loud before they severely sound thin and constrained. you can talk all you want about this driver or that and from who and where and the tweeter is smooth etc but $850.00 fort eh Totem Mite versus the B&W 602S3 and this is simply a joke right. The 602 may be a bit fat sounding but I'll take that over nasal and thin without any soprt of mictrodynamics to speaker of.

I rememeber years ago that I liked the B&W CDM 2SE over the much ballyhooed Model One at nearly double the price. I said then wow what impressive bass for such a small speaker - that is a lot different than wow what impressive bass period.

Totem is a good sounding style product but it's still just a style product IMO. The Rainmaker is not bad and the Mani Two is quite good but the money???? Sorry but it's too much for the sonics on offer.

Soundhounds claims to have dropped them because they don;t sound as good. Or Totem got fed up of not being able to sell against the competition. A&B Sound has none except Bose and low priced Energy and Mission. I can't see too many people buying a Totem Arro over the Energy C-9 and they go for about the same price. I know which I would take. If you don't listen to trance or rock or above 90db maybe the Arro is ok.

They may do a lot better in the U.S.

[kexodusc]

Hmm, yeah, Totem is priced above the competition, at least products that offer equivalent sound, and they do market their looks. They're almost non-existant in Georgia and Maine (last 2 states I lived in).
Personally, I've always felt the small speaker gimmick might have back-fired for them. People would look at the speakers and lump them with Bose or other small speakers and not give them a chance.
Psychology is funny.
Good drivers doesn't necessarily mean a good speaker. A driver is generally not even 5% of a speaker's cost.

[RGA]

The thing is everyone markets the drivers it seems = B&W with Nautilus tube tapering etc. Peter keeps telling his designer friends at B&W that if they want their speakers to sound as good as his is to forget that and build a quality cabinets. But then they would not sell because of the way they look.

I will say that not everyone places the Sonics above all else...I mean speakers can be viewed as a part of a person's furnishings so I understand the B&W 803 kind of look and the Totems etc. They can be fit in beside a person's wall unit or something and then pulled out into the room when you want to listen. They are sleek like a sports car, trim like we want our women, I guess, and then after they re-work all the tech no-babble to make this a superior technical advancement that you can't possibly live without. And then add in a Yellow driver and make it bullit proof (I guess for the folks buying speakers in the Middle East???) and you're set.


Of course the drivers are cheap - They like to sell you lots of them and for each one you have to make corrections and more corrections to fix the problems created. IMO simpler sounds better almost all the time - if your set-up makes errors and then needs correction circuitry or a correective device the umm why not get the one that doesn't make the screw-ups in the first place?

[kexodusc]

The thing is everyone markets the drivers it seems = B&W with Nautilus tube tapering etc.

Yes, this is unfortunate, but that's really all that differentiates a speaker to most people.

Peter keeps telling his designer friends at B&W that if they want their speakers to sound as good as his is to forget that and build a quality cabinets. But then they would not sell because of the way they look.

Your friend Peter is wise. Too many "slightly inadequate" cabinets in commercial designs. I think the problem is the extra refinement would only yield minor improvements and move them out of a competitive price range to most. Funny thing is, a good cabinet built strong and sturdy, even tall, narrow, and pretty, in a speaker such as the AN J or Paradigm Studio 100's would cost probably 1/4 to 1/8 the price of the drivers in the speaker (at least, see my other reply to one of your posts about the cost of MDF). I think Audio Note would have you believe building a fundamentally superior cabinet is difficult and some form of trickery. It's not. And IMO, just like Totem is guilty of small, narrow fancy designs, AN is guilty of odd, fat-shaped gimmicky designs. Except they don't try to use a 4 inch woofer across the entire spectrum.
And there's probably 1/4398 the amount of time and research that goes into cabinet design as in driver design. Now, the crossovers...that is the most critical part of a speaker IMO. Once you determine a cost for a design, you buy your drivers and box materials accordingly. The crossover is key here. A bad crossover ruins everything, or often forces a designer to spend way too much on a tweeter in order to work with a cheap woofer. I'm sketpical of any commercial design with nice, round crossover values of 2 KHz (ahem, Paradigm). What are the odds of that? Software programs will often determine the value to the nearest 10, or even to the last frequency if you're so picky.

I will say that not everyone places the Sonics above all else...I mean speakers can be viewed as a part of a person's furnishings so I understand the B&W 803 kind of look and the Totems etc.

True. Bose proved that years ago. I wouldn't quite lump Totem anywhere near them though (but I've only heard a few models). I basically figured Totem to charge a couple hundred premium for arguably fancier looks. If you didn't like the look, you'd never buy them though. Except they're new home theater speakers, and maybe the Rainmaker, I was quite impressed with that one awhile back.

Of course the drivers are cheap - They like to sell you lots of them and for each one you have to make corrections and more corrections to fix the problems created.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Drivers shouldn't have much problem when you buy them, it's only when you start substituting drivers into non-customized designs. And today, many speaker vendors will sell tolerance matched drivers in pairs to the public at no, or very little extra charge anyay. I think some manufacturers sell them pre-boxed in pairs as such too. I still think labor and distribution are the single largest costs in most commercial designs below $1000. Unless they're assembled in a line or by machines.

IMO simpler sounds better almost all the time - if your set-up makes errors and then needs correction circuitry or a correective device then umm why not get the one that doesn't make the screw-ups in the first place?

Yes, simple = good.
Eventually I want to start building a transmission line speaker...mostly for the challenge, but for the extra work, time, and frustration involved, the good ol' 2-way is hard to beat. You can tinker to your hearts content to get that last bit of performance out of a design, but if your time is worth anything, why not build an MTM or a 2-way or even 3-way with better drivers...spend the money on quality components instead of tedious labor. Unless you absolutely love the T-line sound (which I do).

[RGA]

Then you might like PMC Transmission Lines - Audio Note's AZ are transmission lines though they call it something else.

Labour is the biggest cost. SOundhounds is sending their repair person to Britain so that he can learn the computer system and how they match the speakers. Then Soundhounds can make the speakers K and J to the same standards. Terry said people keep coming in and they want the speaker but understandably at the "deal" price of last years models. So they will build them - they willnot crate them so you would take em in a blanket or somehting as it costs $50.00 just to crate the freaking things. These kinds of external costs are always thrown back into the retail price of the speaker - you have the manufacturer the distributer and the retailer each taking their 25%(and that's after talking them down) - so there is a 100% marke-up at least from the time you actually pay for them. It's simply cheaper than paying a Brit to make them. They estimate that the J would sell for about $3300.00Cdn which is a far cry from $4900.00.

You of course can build it yourself but that is true of any speaker - and people have a tendancy not to charge themselves labour or gas, insurance, wear and tear going to get the ply wood, nor do they count the tools they bought for the job - soldering irons heating etc. If I charge $20.00 to myself suddenly it isn't so much of a good deal because it does take more than an hour to put it together.

Crossover is big aspect - but you need the appropriate drivers to compliment the driver and the right wood.

The J/L and the J/Spe use the same crossover and the same drivers, the cabinet and wiring are different - the former is more of an equivelant to MDF and it simply doesn't sound as good...still good but IMO definitely worth paying the extra for. More noticeable in the E but the E uses more of it.

The Kit E is the equivelant of the AN E/D which retailed for $2700.00US and Soundhounds was selling last years models for $2,000.00CDN. They sold out very fast. I am surprised in one way that AN is Soundhound's biggest selling line given the price relative to the others.

And no I'm not associating Totem with Bose - I personally think you can get just as good sound from speakers at half the price of Totem most of the time is all - I feel you are paying double for the looks. But you are still getting a quality loudspeaker in your home. Bose gives neither looks(and I mean more finish as art like Totem) nor sound and you can pay even MORE for it than Totem. I mean Bose has those cubes here for ~$3000.00 you could by RCA Cubes at Wal-mart and get the same sound and same small looks for $229.00 with mid/woofer module they call a sub and even include amp/dvd player (well maybe $269.00 for the one with the Built in DVD player.

Totem is a real speaker more or less - but i'm not sure I can realistically say that the one should pay more for the Totem mite over the B&W 602S3 or Energy C5 or even the C3 - I like it a bit louder and more room filling than to get your friends to go "Wow cool look at how much bass you get from such a small box"

[matt39]

Hi fahertyps,

Just thought I'd suggest a possible alternative to the Monitor Audio B2. If you have a PSB dealer in your area you might want to audition the new Image B25. It's in your price range at $450 and is also front ported. While I haven't yet heard this model, I auditioned it's predecessor the Image 2B extensively and they were very good speakers so the new model could be worth a listen. The Monitor is an excellent choice but the PSB could at least give you something to compare. One thing I was wondering, do you like your Mini Monitors? Seems to me they would compete directly with what you're considering. Good luck.

[kexodusc]

Then you might like PMC Transmission Lines - Audio Note's AZ are transmission lines though they call it something else.

I didn't know AN made a t-line.

I'm really curious about the claims you're making about the wood vs. MDF here and elsewhere. Does AN talk about this specifically in any of their literature suggesting why this would "improve" the speaker's sound? The only literature I've ever seen suggesting wood could outperform MDF sonically is if the cabinet is made out of 1 piece of wood, chiseled and hollowed to design. A solid 1 piece cabinet. And I'm not saying MDF outperforms a good wood, the choice on which to use is usually influenced by looks vs. the ease to work with, not sound.

This is a very old argument in the DIY community though, without bringing that all up again, I would use cables as an analogy. Those that believe wood is better will stand by that claim to the death. Either way, most agree if the difference even is there, it is probably the single smallest contributor to sound in the complete system (assuming all other aspects remain constant).