Bookshelf Speaker Recommendation

[ctctc]

... Have you heard any Klipsch?

Yesterday, on my three-hour one-hour lunch break, I went to another local shop and auditioned the Dali lektor 3, the Cambridge audio SL70, and the KEF iQ10. All were played using a Cary CDP 1, a Cary SLP 98P/98L, and an operetta AP 510 in a 4000 square-foot room with 15 foot high bare walls! The proprietor was pleasant and I had a good time in spite of the dozen or so people that kept walking between me and the speakers!

The Dali Lektor 3 had overpowering highs, the mids sounded as if they were being held in a box somewhere, had a strong base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. The soundstage was not well defined but included most of the vocals, drums, and occasional guitar and keyboards. Much of the sound was clearly coming from the speakers. While the clarity was strong, overall this was a poor showing.

The KEF iQ10 had quiet highs, good mids, strong base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. It's soundstage was not any better than the Dali's. The clarity was somewhat muddled, again this was a poor showing.

The Cambridge Audio SL70 had good highs, strong mids, a good base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. These had the most well-defined soundstage of the three, however there were too many things going on in the room for me to concentrate more clearly. The clarity was good, and this one might be worth listening to again under better conditions.

I don't know the quality of the Cary and Operetta equipment, but I'm going to take a leap and state that this was a terrible listening environment. I could be wrong but I would attribute the boomy noise entirely to the room. I would not purchase anything based on this audition. Based upon this listening experience I would stick with theJoLida FX10 and vintage Marantz speakers!

With Tekton's return policy, I think you should order a pair and call it a day.

As you recommended, I spoke with Eric. I found him to be approachable, knowledgeable, and likable and as such I would like to patronize his "Made in USA" store! Unless I'm mistaken his stated return policy is a 15% restocking fee, which he qualified by saying that he could work with me. However I don't want to abuse that, as a small shop, returns probably hurt him. So with a little bit more experience under my belt in auditioning speakers, I intend to give his 8.1t product a try.

[Geoffcin]

Not to confuse you, but you need not settle for "Standmounts" with a $1k budget. I've owned the slightly larger brother of these;



http://www.axiomaudio.com/m60.html and it was an outstanding speaker in it's class. Very well designed and remarkable performance.
I would not hesitate to recommend them.

[poppachubby]

Hey ctctc, you auditioned those three speakers in a gigantic, bare room. This is why they all sounded boomy.

[ctctc]

Not to confuse you, but you need not settle for "Standmounts" with a $1k budget. I've owned the slightly larger brother of these...

Thanks for the Input, i'll keep my eye out for the axiom audio. The Cambridge Audio SL70 speakers were floorstanders too. It seems that the recession has devastated the inventory of the two local shops that I have visited. My hi-fi guy has no new speakers to show, except his own $2,700 brand, and the pickens at this other shop I went to yesterday were slim.

[frenchmon]

Yesterday, on my three-hour one-hour lunch break, I went to another local shop and auditioned the Dali lektor 3, the Cambridge audio SL70, and the KEF iQ10. All were played using a Cary CDP 1, a Cary SLP 98P/98L, and an operetta AP 510 in a 4000 square-foot room with 15 foot high bare walls! The proprietor was pleasant and I had a good time in spite of the dozen or so people that kept walking between me and the speakers!

The Dali Lektor 3 had overpowering highs, the mids sounded as if they were being held in a box somewhere, had a strong base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. The soundstage was not well defined but included most of the vocals, drums, and occasional guitar and keyboards. Much of the sound was clearly coming from the speakers. While the clarity was strong, overall this was a poor showing.

The KEF iQ10 had quiet highs, good mids, strong base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. It's soundstage was not any better than the Dali's. The clarity was somewhat muddled, again this was a poor showing.

The Cambridge Audio SL70 had good highs, strong mids, a good base, but there was a lot of boomy noise. These had the most well-defined soundstage of the three, however there were too many things going on in the room for me to concentrate more clearly. The clarity was good, and this one might be worth listening to again under better conditions.

I don't know the quality of the Cary and Operetta equipment, but I'm going to take a leap and state that this was a terrible listening environment. I could be wrong but I would attribute the boomy noise entirely to the room. I would not purchase anything based on this audition. Based upon this listening experience I would stick with theJoLida FX10 and vintage Marantz speakers!



As you recommended, I spoke with Eric. I found him to be approachable, knowledgeable, and likable and as such I would like to patronize his "Made in USA" store! Unless I'm mistaken his stated return policy is a 15% restocking fee, which he qualified by saying that he could work with me. However I don't want to abuse that, as a small shop, returns probably hurt him. So with a little bit more experience under my belt in auditioning speakers, I intend to give his 8.1t product a try.

Yesterday morning I was at Magnolia in Bestbuy to take a listen to Pro-Ject TT they had set up....thing sounded terrible and I mentioned to one of the sales guys that it sounded terrible. He came over and started messing with the tracking and mentioned that he did not know what the heck he was doing.

My best guess is that the gear needs to be listened to in your home rather than a store when it is possible...

[ctctc]

Today I went to another local shop to audition speakers into different listening rooms.

In the first room [approximately 16' x 22' x 10' high with carpeting, acoustical ceiling tile, fabric on some walls, and lots of speakers] we use a Rotel RA-1520 integrated amplifier at 60 W to listen to the following speakers: B&W CM5; phase Tech 1.5; B&W 805; and Thiel SCS4.

The B&W CM5 had good highs and strong mids which were both clear, and decent bass that was somewhat undefined. The soundstage was only partially developed as some of the instruments seemed to be clearly coming from the speakers. Perhaps the positioning of the speakers in the room had something to do with this. I was not too keen on these.

The phase Tech 1.5 had strong highs, good mids, and strong base and all came through clearly. The soundstage was somewhat more developed than the B&W's. I thought these sounded good.

The B&W 805 had outstanding highs, spectacular mids, and luscious bass all in a clean and concise soundstage. They sounded way too good for me, and after he told me the price I understood.

The Thiel SCS4 had flat highs, strong mids, and flat lows although all came through crystal-clear. I couldn't seem to get past the flat sound to concentrate on the soundstage. These seem to be better used for multi-channel surround system.

We then changed rooms [approximately 14' x 20' x 10' high with carpeting, acoustical ceiling tile, fabric on some walls, and lots of speakers] and used a Rotel RC-1550+ and RB-1552 200 W amplifier to listen to the following speakers: phase Tech 1.5; and Thiel CS1.6.

The phase Tech 1.5 had moderate highs, good mids, a strong base, but were terribly boomy and much less well-defined. The soundstage maintained its image that I heard in the first room. They did not sound as good under these conditions.

The Thiel CS1.6 had moderate highs, strong mids, a strong base, and incredible presence, but were also terribly boomy and not well-defined. The soundstage was huge and had great depth. In spite of the boomy sound I would like to take these into the first room next time for a listen.

I asked the salesman where he thought the boomy sound of these two speakers came from, the room or the different amplifier. He wasn't certain but thought that this amplifier had stronger lows than the amp in the first room.

By the way, I feel my budget bursting a little.

[poppachubby]

Sounds like a good time.

I am buying a mint pair of Mission 707 w/ original stands for $100 locally. They had the price set at $140. Mission have a very specific sound, particularily the 707. These were a very popular model back in the day and still maintain a cult status amongst Mission fans.

The 707 is certainly not a perfect speaker, sonically speaking. However, I think they would blow away many speakers that line the shelves of big box stores.

I forget if you're open to used or not, but there's a ton of value in a minty pair of used speakers. I'm making space as we speak, and tommorrow they'll be here.

Good luck!

[blackraven]

I have never heard a Thiel speaker described as boomy. Most people complain that they lack bass. The rooms must not be set up properly. You described a Thiel speaker perfectly except for the bass.

[poppachubby]

ctctc, here's a great way to check out the Mission sound. For 60 bucks, this is a highly regarded speaker...

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/ele/1793251945.html

Here's some info on the Freedom Series...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission...om_loudspeaker

[blackraven]

Pops it looks like a great buy there. You should really enjoy them. Mission use to make great sounding speakers. Will they be used in your reference system?

[poppachubby]

Pops it looks like a great buy there. You should really enjoy them. Mission use to make great sounding speakers. Will they be used in your reference system?

You know it. I'm really excited. They are like new. Check out the 770 FR available in Chi-town for the poster. $60 is a good deal if they';re in good shape.

I'll be posting after some lilstening tommorrow raven.

[blackraven]

They will sound awesome with that tube gear. I'm looking forward to your review.

[ctctc]

I forget if you're open to used or not, but there's a ton of value in a minty pair of used speakers...

As I am listening to more speakers I am finding that the ones that I prefer are more expensive than my stated budget. It has now occurred to me to consider buying used. My biggest concern when buying used is not knowing if there is a significant problem with the equipment that will make itself apparent only after money has changed hands. For example, I had a Marshall hybrid amp whose volume would drop to zero after about 20 minutes of playing. I'd be hard-pressed to discover that in a demo session.

[poppachubby]

I understand your concerns, they are shared by new and experienced alike.

A good rule of thumb for this hobby, is not to buy new unless you are 100% certain the item matches your tastes. The stage you are in, and myself also, involves alot of discovery and unfortunately, buying and selling. The more new items you buy, the more money you will lose. Used is great, many times you can get back exactly what you spent. Just a thought.

The comparison of a speaker v Marshall is not a good one. There is less complexity with the speaker, and less things that can be wrong. The most important would be that the speakers both work, and can output sound. NEVER assume. From there the woofer/tweeter condition would be important. Try and look along the seams or joints of the box, does it look tampered or like it's been opened? The input port should be inspected also.

I am going to buy used speakers today. The seller lives in an affluent neighbourhood, and is a 50-something businessman. 90% of the time, this info can be telling vs. buying from a university student for example. Not always, but another piece to the puzzle.

Bottom line, if you're not confident, don't do it. I think by using this site and some good common sense, used could be a great idea for you.

Have a look at Audiogon. Compare the going used prices vs the new street price. This will give you an understanding to the savings that are possible.

BTW, you should buy those Missions "just for the heck" of it. $60 for a fun pair of speakers,

[Geoffcin]

I have never heard a Thiel speaker described as boomy. Most people complain that they lack bass. The rooms must not be set up properly. You described a Thiel speaker perfectly except for the bass.

I think you nail this on the head. Very few speakers in the Thiel 1.6 class are going to be "boomy" in any case. A slight bass "hump" in the 80Hz-100Hz region maybe, but when you get to speakers this good rarely do you get "boomy" Gotta be the room. How many speakers were in there anyway?

[frenchmon]

Sounds like a good time.

I am buying a mint pair of Mission 707 w/ original stands for $100 locally. They had the price set at $140. Mission have a very specific sound, particularily the 707. These were a very popular model back in the day and still maintain a cult status amongst Mission fans.

The 707 is certainly not a perfect speaker, sonically speaking. However, I think they would blow away many speakers that line the shelves of big box stores.

I forget if you're open to used or not, but there's a ton of value in a minty pair of used speakers. I'm making space as we speak, and tommorrow they'll be here.

Good luck!

Congrats PoppaC

[hank46]

I am considering purchasing new speakers for my two channel audio system, and due to the layout of the room I would like to first consider bookshelf type speakers on a stand. The amp that I am considering requires speakers to have an efficiency of 89 or better. I would like to begin my search in the $1000 range.

Can anyone recommend speakers that might meet these requirements?

I tried a pair of old B&W DM600 , however they were not very loud [efficient], were lacking in presence compared to my old Marantz speakers, and had no sub lows that I could hear.

i own a pair of B&W DM12'S. I use them for music only, and they provide me with loads of bass. of course placement with bookshelf speakers are very important. dispite the age of the B&W DM12 i find it hard to stop playing my music. i would rather own a good pair of 2 ways, then a cheaper pair of 3 ways......

[poppachubby]

i own a pair of B&W DM12'S. I use them for music only, and they provide me with loads of bass. of course placement with bookshelf speakers are very important. dispite the age of the B&W DM12 i find it hard to stop playing my music. i would rather own a good pair of 2 ways, then a cheaper pair of 3 ways......

I was considering the DM 22 myself, but got a better deal on Mission 707. Who cares about age!?! If they sound great, that's all that matters.

BTW Hank, welcome to AR! You sound like a knowledgeable guy, please stick around and give us your $00.2

[ctctc]

...A slight bass "hump" in the 80Hz-100Hz region maybe, but when you get to speakers this good rarely do you get "boomy" Gotta be the room. How many speakers were in there anyway?

I would guesstimate about 10 pair. I now understand that the placement of the speaker in the room could sound "boomy". How could I hi-fi shop allow their speakers to be presented in this way?

[ctctc]

A good rule of thumb for this hobby, is not to buy new unless you are 100% certain the item matches your tastes...Bottom line, if you're not confident, don't do it. I think by using this site and some good common sense, used could be a great idea for you.

Loud and clear!

BTW, you should buy those Missions "just for the heck" of it. $60 for a fun pair of speakers,

yes, I will try to audition them this week.

[ctctc]

I went to yet another local shop to re-audition the Thiel 1.6 and to listen to B&W CM 9.

We started out using a Rotel RA-1520 integrated amp.

The Thiel CS1.6 had moderate somewhat reserved highs, strong detailed mids, and good lows with a well-defined soundstage and good presence. I was not thrilled with the presentation but it was okay.

The B&W CM 9 had good representation over all spectrums and was more dynamic than the Thiels. The soundstage was not as well-defined but the speakers had a good presence. I was not thrilled with the presentation.

We then changed the amp to a Ayre Ax-7e integrated. This made a huge difference in both speakers. It is of course beyond my budget.

The Thiel CS1.6 were strong at all frequency levels, had great detail in the high range, smooth midrange, and even lows. It had a well-defined soundstage and good presence. I like to this presentation very much and preferred them over the B&W.

The B&W CM 9 were strong at all frequency levels, had good detail in the high range, were very dynamic, however the low end seemed to overpower the other frequencies. There was a strong soundstage and presence. This was a good presentation.

We then the auditioned the Thiel CS2.4 which sounded about 20% better than the 1.6s in all aspects. However this is far beyond my budget.

Interestingly enough this salesman impressed me as being the most experienced and knowledgeable of the three that I have met, and he advised that I should only consider purchasing a solid-state amplifier. He further stated that tube amplifiers tend to be noisier, and are inconsistent in their performance: they are either in a state of breaking-in and sounding better; or breaking-down and sounding worse. Furthermore he could not recommend a good tube amplifier for less than $5,000.

[poppachubby]

Interestingly enough this salesman impressed me as being the most experienced and knowledgeable of the three that I have met, and he advised that I should only consider purchasing a solid-state amplifier. He further stated that tube amplifiers tend to be noisier, and are inconsistent in their performance: they are either in a state of breaking-in and sounding better; or breaking-down and sounding worse. Furthermore he could not recommend a good tube amplifier for less than $5,000.

This is funny. He is either a complete idiot, or a complete liar. You pick.

[markw]

While I tend to recommend solid-state for speakers that require any amount of power, the salesmans reasons are totally off-the-wall.

Is he the one that's been your local guru all along?

[RGA]

Interestingly enough this salesman impressed me as being the most experienced and knowledgeable of the three that I have met, and he advised that I should only consider purchasing a solid-state amplifier. He further stated that tube amplifiers tend to be noisier, and are inconsistent in their performance: they are either in a state of breaking-in and sounding better; or breaking-down and sounding worse. Furthermore he could not recommend a good tube amplifier for less than $5,000.

Your salesman is a hack and I would shop elsewhere. People are running 50 year old ST 70 tube amps and have only replaced the tubes.

Amps whether they are tube or SS will experience problems. Tube amps generally need tube replacements and are relatively inexpensive to fix which can't be said for SS if their board goes. It comes down to the reliability of the makers. One dealer stopped carrying Marantz because they had huge reliability issues. Cambridge Audio and Rega, some NAD and Rotel had periods of horrible reliability and all sell SS.

Virtually every top high end loudspeaker maker at CES brought tube amps to run their speakers. Tube amps probably make up less than .01% of all the amps out there and yet probably accounted for 80%+ of the amplifiers used at CES.

I think you can do better somewhere else and with something better than Thiel.

[atomicAdam]

Interestingly enough this salesman impressed me as being the most experienced and knowledgeable of the three that I have met, and he advised that I should only consider purchasing a solid-state amplifier. He further stated that tube amplifiers tend to be noisier, and are inconsistent in their performance: they are either in a state of breaking-in and sounding better; or breaking-down and sounding worse. Furthermore he could not recommend a good tube amplifier for less than $5,000.

I'm gonna have to jump on this band wagon and with a $0.02 shot say that sounds like BS to me.