Best Subwoofer for $500 or less

[Woochifer]

All good questions...You can download a few design options by clicking "project ideas" on the woofer page at the PE website, or you can just copy the Titanic MKIII cabinet dimensions and build it yourself. If you're really keen, you could hit the PE forum and ask for some advice...there's lots of people who ask this same question for other woofers, and people would be glad to help you choose dimensions.

I would think for your room the 12" would be more than enough, but for the price, fun factor, and extra performance, you could go all the way with the 15"...the difference is about 10 dB max volume output, double the power, and the ability to go below 20 Hz vs. about 22 Hz in room. The 15" goes below 20 Hz and is tight and accurate. Check the DIY forums, I think Sealed did a review on the 15" a few months back here.

Now you've piqued my interest in the PE Titanic kits. I'm curious more about how they would compare to the Adire Rava. When I started shopping around for a sealed sub in the under-$500 price range three years ago, my options at that time were pretty much limited to the Rava and the PE kit. I went with the Rava because it cost less than the 12" Titanic kit, and it came fully assembled with a veneered oak cabinet. Now, the number of sealed options in the under-$600 price range has increased a lot with models introduced in the last two years from B&W, Atlantic, Acoustic Visions, Rocket, and Martin Logan.

I can understand the appeal of the Titanic kit because it allows you to tailor the cabinet and/or port dimensions to whatever performance parameters you're looking for. But, looking at it point by point with the Rava, I'm curious as to the advantage of the Titanic.

Basically, the Titanic has a more powerful 500 watt amp that comes with a one channel parametric EQ, while the Rava uses a higher capacity driver. (Adire's website claims a higher swept volume, longer driver excursion, and higher SPL for the Shiva driver over the Titanic driver)

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/...eFrameText.htm

Basically, the Shiva driver and the plate amp used in the Rava would cost about $300 just for the parts. For the extra $100, the Rava throws in a veneered cabinet and assembly. I know that the plate amp that comes with the Titanic kit costs about $120 more than the amp that's in the Rava, but the cost difference between the Rava and the 12" Titanic kit is about $136.

I guess my question is what more does the Titanic kit offer over the Rava? The Rava is essentially a glorified DIY project culled together from well regarded parts and built to a Q alignment (0.67) that's slightly biased towards longer frequency extension but not too far off from the Butterworth alignment (.707) that is statistically closest to a flat response.

The Parts Express site doesn't say too much about the Titanic kit's tonal characteristics. Since it's a sealed box, I would be curious about its Q alignment. The ACI sealed subs are built to a Q alignment of 0.6, which is extends the frequency range and is commonly regarded as a more "musical" alignment. I also read somewhere that B&W's sealed subs have a Q alignment closer to 0.8, which is surprising because that tends to shorten the frequency extension and create a slight boost in the midbass.

I see a lot of recommendations for the Titanic kits, and I've been curious as to what it offers over the Rava despite a higher price and the need to assemble it.

[kexodusc]

Wooch, my plane's about to land so I have to make this quick, but real quickly I've noticed the stats in the link you provide seem to refer to much older Titanic MKII driver...the xmax of the new 12" MK III is a whopping 1.87 cm (or 2-way 3.74 cm), much longer than the Shiva driver, and PE claims a max SPL of over 110 dB's vs the Rava's 105 dB's.
The Titanic moves more air, has lower response, more power, and higher SPL...Parametric EQ (is it one channel?) and it comes in ugly black.
What more could you want?
More tomorrow hopefully.

[kexodusc]

Wooch, I've also confirmed that the Q alignment of the Titanic MKIII kits is 0.707...you could argue the real impact this produces, alot of subs seem to be going for higher Q's these days, the Q itself is meaningless, though, you have to take the parameters of the driver into consideration. My guess it was just an easy place for Vance Dickason to start.

The 12" driver produces a swept volume at 1.67 L by my calcs, though the Dayton driver measures only the effective radius of the driver, not sure if the Rava specs use the larger radius figure to boost the reported specs or not.

The 12" Dayton is the more efficient driver (not by much), but coupled with the larger amp I think you'd maintain see a bit less distortion at higher SPL...how much real world advantage this translates into is beyond me though, probably not much. It might actually be more of a benefit at lower SPL? I'm not really a sub guy, spend most of my time on crossovers and speaker cabinets.

Alot of would people argue you need the better (bigger) amp to take full advantage of the excursion both of these drivers...though I'm not sure utilizing full excursion capability is always necessary.

I've never heard the Rava personally, though I've heard of it often enough. It could be the better performing sub of the two, or even just a more affordable alternative that captures most of the performance at a better value...I know my parents 12" MKIII kit is noticeably lower, and leaner than my PW-2200 was in my room, but alot cheaper...I have high expectations for the 15" kit (almost double the surface area of the 12" and sweeping over 3 L, here I come)...

Thoughts?

[mjon99]

Kex,
Let us know what you think of the 15" when you finish it.

[Woochifer]

Wooch, I've also confirmed that the Q alignment of the Titanic MKIII kits is 0.707...you could argue the real impact this produces, alot of subs seem to be going for higher Q's these days, the Q itself is meaningless, though, you have to take the parameters of the driver into consideration. My guess it was just an easy place for Vance Dickason to start.

The 12" driver produces a swept volume at 1.67 L by my calcs, though the Dayton driver measures only the effective radius of the driver, not sure if the Rava specs use the larger radius figure to boost the reported specs or not.

The 12" Dayton is the more efficient driver (not by much), but coupled with the larger amp I think you'd maintain see a bit less distortion at higher SPL...how much real world advantage this translates into is beyond me though, probably not much. It might actually be more of a benefit at lower SPL? I'm not really a sub guy, spend most of my time on crossovers and speaker cabinets.

Alot of would people argue you need the better (bigger) amp to take full advantage of the excursion both of these drivers...though I'm not sure utilizing full excursion capability is always necessary.

I've never heard the Rava personally, though I've heard of it often enough. It could be the better performing sub of the two, or even just a more affordable alternative that captures most of the performance at a better value...I know my parents 12" MKIII kit is noticeably lower, and leaner than my PW-2200 was in my room, but alot cheaper...I have high expectations for the 15" kit (almost double the surface area of the 12" and sweeping over 3 L, here I come)...

Thoughts?

Very interesting indeed! Sounds like the MKIII driver's a nice step up over the Shiva, which would then justify its higher price. With the new driver specs, that answers my question about the differences between the two. The driver and amp used in that Titanic kit would alone cost about $440, while the Rava costs $400 fully assembled. I would expect and hope that a $540 kit can outperform the Rava, otherwise what's the point?

The Rava uses that Q=0.67 alignment and they modified the amp with both a rumble filter and an EQ circuit that's supposed to flatten out the response (I believe that the 250 watt amp used by Adire is a pretty generic design that just about every DIY sub supplier sells some version of). Choosing the Rava three years ago was a pretty easy choice, because it was pretty much the only option that matched what I was looking for (at that time, I did not consider DIY an option because I'd never owned a sub before and didn't want my first foray to incur more complications than there already were). Now, with more comparable choices out there, this is a great time for people looking for an affordable sealed sub option.

As far as your kit goes, have fun with it and let us know how it goes! But, just to muck things a bit more for your bout of upgradeitis, you should get a look at Adire's 15" Tumult driver. That thing has a linear excursion of 3.4 cm one way and Adire claims a swept volume of over 5 liters! Acoustic Visions is the only company I'm aware of that currently builds finished subs around the Tumult driver, and they start at $1,500 (the driver itself costs $500). See how long you can resist!

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/...eFrameText.htm

[kexodusc]

Wooch, what are you doing to me? Don't temp me!!!

I've got a 20 X 24 room that is nicely filled with decent bass by the PW-2200 I have now. I believe the Rava and 12" Titanic would be significant improvements, the 15" Titanic is overkill.
That Tumult monstrosity would likely get me in trouble with the neighbors. (that's my way of saying it's about 2.5 times too expensive).

You're right about sub options exploding...even commercial offerings (ported and sealed) have multiplied and become better and cheaper in the last few years. I'm not married to Dayton or the Titanics at all, if anyone's got a sub project idea under $600 or less they think is better I'd love to know. Unfortunately, I don't know how long I can hold out...I've got a buyer for the PW-2200 that'll cover most of the cost of this upgrade...must....resist...

[Woochifer]

Wooch, what are you doing to me? Don't temp me!!!

I've got a 20 X 24 room that is nicely filled with decent bass by the PW-2200 I have now. I believe the Rava and 12" Titanic would be significant improvements, the 15" Titanic is overkill.
That Tumult monstrosity would likely get me in trouble with the neighbors. (that's my way of saying it's about 2.5 times too expensive).

You're right about sub options exploding...even commercial offerings (ported and sealed) have multiplied and become better and cheaper in the last few years. I'm not married to Dayton or the Titanics at all, if anyone's got a sub project idea under $600 or less they think is better I'd love to know. Unfortunately, I don't know how long I can hold out...I've got a buyer for the PW-2200 that'll cover most of the cost of this upgrade...must....resist...

Yeah, what was I thinking! That Tumult is for wusses.

If you REALLY want to be a menace to your neighborhood, get a look at Adire's Parthenon driver. This is the driver that with a simple 24" diaphragm can power down to 20 Hz at reference levels with no box or baffle. No one I'm aware of has built a practical application for this monstrous motor, but it seems geared for serious bragging rights. Adire claims that this motor is powerful enough to achieve a 12" stroke with 450 liters swept volume while driving a 48" diaphragm. So, if you got a $3,000 DIY project coming up, this has got your name all over it!

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/...eFrameText.htm

[Jack]

Kexodusc, Wooch, etc. I'm looking at the Titanic 10" kit and have a question. The ONLY space in my living room for the sub is only 15"x15"x21", hence the 10" and not the 12" enclosure. My question...How will the tight spacing affect the sound of the sub, if at all? It will only be about 6" from the back wall, very close to touching the A/V rack and very close to a 6 inch "quasi" wall on the other side. The front will, of course, face the sitting area. As you can probably tell from my question, I have no experience with sub placement, etc. I searched on this site and could not find the answer, and since you were on the topic, I decided against starting a new thread. Any and all info would be greatly appreciated. BTW, this will be my first attempt atany type of DIY, but the reports about the quality and ease of construction of the Titanic kits has me interested. Thanks in advance for any help you may offer....Jack

[kexodusc]

Yeah, what was I thinking! That Tumult is for wusses.

If you REALLY want to be a menace to your neighborhood, get a look at Adire's Parthenon driver. This is the driver that with a simple 24" diaphragm can power down to 20 Hz at reference levels with no box or baffle. No one I'm aware of has built a practical application for this monstrous motor, but it seems geared for serious bragging rights. Adire claims that this motor is powerful enough to achieve a 12" stroke with 450 liters swept volume while driving a 48" diaphragm. So, if you got a $3,000 DIY project coming up, this has got your name all over it!

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/...eFrameText.htm

Okay, I'm selling me right kidney on ebay now...any takers...it's in near mint shape, has some minor wear and tear, but is far better condition than my liver. Never driven hard, from a non-smoking home...selling to finance home theater upgrade.

Maybe some day, Wooch, this looks more like something Sir Terrence would use for center channel or something...I have a nut bar Uncle that has a 31" Fostex driver in his subwoofer that cost more than any speakers I've ever owned. Just when I get feeling good about my system, I pay him a visit and get served a slice of humble pie.

There must be a point where a subwoofer becomes overkill in a given room...I don't know where that is, but I'm pretty I'll be close enough.