• 12-07-2003, 06:51 AM
    HighFlyer
    Axiom-Is the hype to be believed?
    Hi. I am a newbie to stereo and audio components (first post) but have read a lot in this site and am impressed with all the knowledge and helpful posts out there.

    I live up in Canada and have been searching for a speaker system to go with my Denon avr 1403 receiver. Some of the obvious choices I'm looking at (Canadian so better priced) Energy, Paradigm and Axiom.
    Can't believe the amazing reviews the Axiom brand gets in this site. Fundamentally should one not hear the speakers they purchase and not go on reviews (Axiom has no retailers or factory sound room). Are these reviews to be believed? Perhaps I am a little skeptical by nature...any comments out there?
    My room is only 11 x 17 with 8 foot ceilings. Looking for a 5.1 system and I would describe myself as a 50/50 music vs. HT listener.
    Thanks.
  • 12-07-2003, 08:05 AM
    Geoffcin
    Hi Flyer! (couldn't resist)

    Welcome to the AR boards. While your guaranteed to get a lot of different opinions here about speakers, or just about anything else for that matter, anyone who's heard Axioms will probably give them a thumbs up. I've only heard the little M2i's and was thoroughly impressed. Probably the only reason I didn't choose Axiom for my HT setup what the fact that I got such a great deal on my main CSW T500's, and wanted to stick with all Cambridge Soundworks speakers. The Axioms have a more forward sound than the CSW speakers too. CSW uses Silk domes, as opposed to titanium for the Axiom. Axioms are just a bit brighter and in your face, as opposed to more laid back for the CSW speakers.
  • 12-07-2003, 09:20 AM
    skeptic
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by HighFlyer
    Are these reviews to be believed? Perhaps I am a little skeptical by nature...any comments out there?

    I'm also "skeptic(al)" by nature. I think you SHOULD listen to speakers before buying them. You have to live with them for a long time unless you can afford to constantly trade. Usually that is an expensive strategy in the long run but some people do it. Often these kinds of sellers will allow you an in home trial period with various refund policies. You may have to pay for shipping one or both ways if you don't like your purchase. Perhaps these types of arrangements can be negotiated with some sellers. It's very risky to buy this type of equipment on the kinds of reviews you'd get at this site anyway. You don't even know if the reviewers are shills for the seller. Buyer beware!
  • 12-07-2003, 09:50 AM
    HighFlyer
    "Shills for the seller"...yes has me concerned as well. I also noticed that Axiom has an affiliate progam that you will receive 5% towards their products of the sales referrals attributed to you. In addition, a lot of the sites that review the Axiom systems have banners advertising the Axiom product...this site is no exception.

    I have enjoyed roadbiker review as an avid cyclist and certainly know that not all reviewers are "shills" but nonetheless at least with my bike purchases I could test the product myself.

    As a newbie I don't/can't really appreciate the terms "bright" and "muddy" yet as I have no reference base.
  • 12-07-2003, 11:31 AM
    agtpunx40
    return policy
    I've never heard the axioms myself, but they do have a return policy that says if you don't like them you can return them within thirty days. They have free shipping, but you'd have to pay return shipping to return them. Might be worth it.
  • 12-07-2003, 11:52 AM
    HighFlyer
    Thanks, I was aware of that. Return shipping could be big bucks. GB
  • 12-07-2003, 12:54 PM
    Pat D
    Almost everybody hypes their products a bit!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by HighFlyer
    Hi. I am a newbie to stereo and audio components (first post) but have read a lot in this site and am impressed with all the knowledge and helpful posts out there.

    I live up in Canada and have been searching for a speaker system to go with my Denon avr 1403 receiver. Some of the obvious choices I'm looking at (Canadian so better priced) Energy, Paradigm and Axiom.
    Can't believe the amazing reviews the Axiom brand gets in this site. Fundamentally should one not hear the speakers they purchase and not go on reviews (Axiom has no retailers or factory sound room). Are these reviews to be believed? Perhaps I am a little skeptical by nature...any comments out there?
    My room is only 11 x 17 with 8 foot ceilings. Looking for a 5.1 system and I would describe myself as a 50/50 music vs. HT listener.
    Thanks.

    The ads from Paradigm, Energy, PSB, and just about anyone else do it to. But that doesn't mean they don't make good speakers. I haven't heard an Axiom speaker for a good many years, but the ones I did hear way back then were pretty good as I recall.

    I'd look for moderately sensitive speakers (often somewhat incorrectly called efficient speakers) as your room is actually a good size and you have one of Denon's smaller receivers. The smaller Axiom speakers seem to be relatively insensitive--nothing unreasonable, mind you. They also generally measure pretty well. Check them out here:

    http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/speakermeasurements/

    You can return Axiom speakers if you don't like them--perhaps you should find out how much that costs. But of course you should listen to speakers before being finally committed, and listen to them at home. You're the one that has to live with them. But consider that there is some time and money spent in getting to and listening to speakers in a showroom, too. What sort of return policies do the local dealers have?
  • 12-07-2003, 01:12 PM
    Geoffcin
    >As a newbie I don't/can't really appreciate the terms "bright" and "muddy" yet as I have no reference base.<

    Bright would seen to have a more pronounced treble as opposed to midrange response. Bright is not always a bad thing. My maggies are considered "bright" by some audiophiles, and there's even an optional resistor to put into the crossover to tone down the tweeters responce. (although I would never use it) Unfortunately bright has gotten a bad name, as a lot of cheap gear is unseemly bright, and that what we would call "etched," or in the worse case "tinny."

    The Axioms are NOT like this, they are just brighter than my CSW speakers. (so are my maggies) I happen to LIKE bright speakers. (perhaps I should have bought the Axioms)?

    Muddy anyone can understand, and it's something you NEVER want in your speaker response. It's characterized by uncontrolled distorted bass. Usually only low end speakers have an overall muddy bass, although I've heard some very good speakers that got muddy when they were asked for more SPL than they were capably of. Actually, almost all woofers start to distort at an amazingly low SPL, rising up to 10%-30% distortion or more as you start to get near their limits.

    I think trying out the speakers in your home is WORTH the extra $$$ if you have to ship them back.
  • 12-07-2003, 02:47 PM
    RGA
    Make sure you listen to a speaker first...it may also be the case the speaker is so bad no store would want to carry them...why not consider that possibility.

    I like the reviews by Hi Fi Choice because they have aa panel of reviewers and listen blind level matched. So, there is no price, name brand and price bias. What Hi-fi also listens in a panel and they review directly against several of the competitors side by side...something most of us don't get to do as one dealer will carry 3 brands another dealer carries 3 nd another etc so we don't listen with the same gear in the same room...which is not really a fair method of listening and evaluating. And even the more subjective reviews with technical arguments don't ever get the measured result to match the subjective(which means the measured result is not telling you everything you need to know...but at least it fills the page and is another feel-good re-enforcer to your bias that you're buying the right speaker). It may sound atrocious but the graph says it's the right speaker so when in doubt ignore what you hear. And it works because a lot of abysmal speakers get sold over and over year in and year out.

    I have nothing against what Axiom is doing. They sell you the speaker knowing most people will never send it back no matter what. But they ensure you listen in your own home and will change the positioning to suit your needs and they probably sound ok maybe great maybe not. But it's better than selling in the Wall-O-speakers against competitors - after all competition is a bad thing becaue you might go home with a Polk and not an Axiom. Axiom assures you go home with their speaker...and they know once there it's highly unlikely you'll return them. And most people don't have other speakers in their home. So it will undoubtedly sound bette than comptitors in a store's bad room with wall-O-Speakers so you can say that your Axiom sounds better than anything and everything else. Smart business sense...Magnepan does the same as does nOhr and a whole bunch of others.

    No matter how well reviewed and what the leading measurements say...there is no gauarantee you'll like the speaker. I would lean to the B&W 303 in this price range...I have not heard everything but it gets well reviewed by the subjective reviewers and did the best in the BLIND listening panel. Though it is a bit of an older speaker and it may have been surpassed and I'm not overly enthusiastic about its brighter leaning tweeter. The Energy C3 is a few hundred Canadian more and is pretty good as well. I would try for a more natural sounding speaker that integrateds the overall sound smoothly by closely matching the drive units. That means a tweeter and a woofer that have a similar sonic signature. It's one thing for a paper woofer to create a flatter response and a metal tweeter to create a flatter response...it's another for them to provide an integrated sound or mesh together seamlessly. I have yet to hear METAL drivers sound natural and integrate properly with the other drivers. Your mileage may vary.
  • 12-07-2003, 03:16 PM
    skeptic
    Whether you listen to speakers in your own home or in a store here is some advice and traps you should be aware of.

    If two speakers play at different loudness, the louder of the two will usually seem to sound better on initial comparison. Audio stores have tricks for setting up speakers and choosing recordings to make the ones they want to sell sound better. Small changes in positioning or acoustics can make a big change in sound. Some dealers will tell you that certain speakers have to be broken in to sound good. This is very controversial. If you believe it, be certain you can bring back a pair that don't break in sounding like what you heard at the store. Speakers which present amplifiers with difficult electrical loads will be demonstrated with very high quality expensive amplifiers or receivers. The results with your equipment may be different. Don't get tricked into believing that wires will make a big difference. Even among serious advocates of special audiophile wires, they will frankly admit that the differences at best are subtle.

    My advice is to become very familiar with unamplified live music of the type you listen to most by attending as many live concerts as you can. Classical music is best, jazz is OK. Muscial genres such as rock or pop are always gimmicked at the studio and do not represent actual live sound. Get the best recordings of the type of live music you are familiar with and use that for critical listening to judge the attributes and shortcomings of different speakers. Speakers may sound initially impressive because of some special characteristic such as a punchy midrange, shrill high frequencies or exaggerated bass but experienced listeners know that this type of distortion become irritating with time. The equipment that gives the most satisfaction over an extended time usually is the most accurate models.
  • 12-07-2003, 03:51 PM
    HighFlyer
    Wow...great posts
    I'm starting to realize I've got way more learning to do. I think you are absolutely right about online retailers figuring you will not return their product and the fact that some don't even have a listening room has me very skeptical.
    Pat D. expressed some concern about my Denon avr 1403 which is a 5.1 ch receiver but at the low end of the spectrum. How will this effect my speaker choices. Most of the retailers I spoke to thought my receiver was more than adequate.
    RGA I checked out Hi-Fi Choice and thank you for the suggestion. They don't have many Canadian products listed so I am figuring I'll be paying more just to get it here in this country. As I am somewhat limited in my budget ($2,000-2,500 Canadian) I'd like to maximize my dollar value. I think your suggestion of the Energy C3's may be the right direction. Your comment about metal drivers, is that in response to Axiom?

    One point of interest is that Axiom has won several awards for their products.So I'm not sure their product would be considered of poor quality. Are their bogus reviewers ou there? I checked out audioaholics and they reviewed the M22ti favourably (apparently they are unbiased as well).

    Lots to research, thanks kindly to all for your time and efforts. GB
  • 12-07-2003, 04:32 PM
    TinHere
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by HighFlyer
    I'm starting to realize I've got way more learning to do. I think you are absolutely right about online retailers figuring you will not return their product and the fact that some don't even have a listening room has me very skeptical. GB

    Don't dismiss internet only companies too quick. Whatever speakers you buy you will be paying shipping one way or another. For the risk of the price to ship they give you an opportunity to hear their products in the only place that matters, your home with your gear. The successful online companies are able to deliver a better product for less money than their competition by virtue of the fact that they are not concerned with middle man mark-up. If you can get an online speaker system for $2000 that can compete with a system in a b&m retailer that costs $3500 [conservative est] and it costs $250 to ship which is the better buy? Add to that the fact that many people have reported positive experiences [ie they REALLY liked them compared to others they heard], and the gamble you take isn't as great as the rewards it can reap. This business model can only survive if they deliver better bang for the buck. Nowhere does bad news from disappointed consumers travel quicker than on the internet.

    Do your research and make your choices, but don't think that the people who report positively about online companies are looking for people to share their misery. It's quite the other way around. Happy hunting.
  • 12-07-2003, 06:16 PM
    Geoffcin
    <<Make sure you listen to a speaker first...it may also be the case the speaker is so bad no store would want to carry them...why not consider that possibility.>>

    WTF RGA!? Are you implying that Axioms are so poor as not to be worthy of inclusion into Best Buy?

    Axioms direct marketing strategy is a key part of their business plan. I don't think there's any sinister plan of "duping people" into buying inferior products with the hope they won't send them back. That is patently absurd.

    So far as reviews are concerned, it's obviously subjective, but speakers that suck DON'T win awards, or the reviewers would be out finding another job real fast. I can't believe that the awards I see on the Axiom site are just shills, that's another absurd statement.
  • 12-07-2003, 06:19 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skeptic
    Speakers may sound initially impressive because of some special characteristic such as a punchy midrange, shrill high frequencies or exaggerated bass but experienced listeners know that this type of distortion become irritating with time. The equipment that gives the most satisfaction over an extended time usually is the most accurate models.


    It had to happen sooner or later...but I actually agree with you here.
  • 12-07-2003, 06:45 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by HighFlyer
    I'
    One point of interest is that Axiom has won several awards for their products.So I'm not sure their product would be considered of poor quality. Are their bogus reviewers ou there? I checked out audioaholics and they reviewed the M22ti favourably (apparently they are unbiased as well).

    Lots to research, thanks kindly to all for your time and efforts. GB

    The Ford Focus won many awards too...read the 2004 Lemon aid used car guide about the car and about the value of awards.

    Sony puts out movies. Not long ago Sony was caught because there was a reviewer who was giving great reviews to new movies under the Sony conglomorate...someone did some checking and the film critic didn't exist...it was Sony marketing who invented the critic and the glorious reviews. Why would you presume that a magazine is any different. Who own Road and Track? Who owns Sound and Vision - or who FUNDS them?

    I am not a big fan of budget home theater systems because to me it's like an all-in one printer...soes it all and nothing well. I have a printer because I don't much care about the quality of photos, or speed or scanning. But no serious photographer would print a picture off the Lexmark 1150 and no serious business would want this as a printer, copier etc. But hey it was cheap does it all and saves space...I knew thi going in and it fits the bill and lives up to my expectations of it.

    Receivers are identical same thing in audio but most consumers don't know of their limitations. Which usually starts with the anaemic power supplies. But again denon for the money is probably decent but it simply isn't going to do everything...You knew that of course because there is the 5803.

    Hi Fi CHoice doesn't get a lot of Canadian or American gear...hmmm. Why not presume to make a few guesses as to why not.

    The Energy C3 for example got 3 stars in What Hi-Fi with the warning that the speaker will likely become fatiguing on longer listening. 3 out of 5 is not a bad rating by the way they are simply cautioning the buyer to make sure you get a longer listen because the sound can be a bit edgy and once that happens you are likely to stop listening to them and become dissatisfied. Look at the Canadian reviews of the Canadian speaker and they seem like the best speakers ever made for the money right...or was that the Canadian Axiom or the Canadian Paradigm...heck the same magazine says it about ALL of them...hmmmm.

    If the only thing I ever take out of University History courses is to not take media at face-value then my experience there is well worth it long run.

    I say it again, there are magazines and reviewers I like more than others Hi fi CHoice, UHF I tend to prefer...that still doesn't mean I agree with them any more than another reviewer...indeed, I disagree with both. For instance Hi Fi Choice gave the B&W CM2 5 stars and the CDM 1NT 4. I personally feel they should be flipped(and stars are dangerous rating guide). But, it's not like one is total crap and they blew it - just a difference of opinion. But it shows me that if I'm spending the money...that reviews are not a gaurantee.

    And if you read the reviews closer of even some of the well reviewed speakers you may come across the terms about the treble region as a bit "hot, emphasized, not quite refined, slightly excessive, forward etc" all mean that there is a very REAL chance the speaker is going to be an irritating mess.

    And MOST speakers with metal tweeters those are the typical adjectives associated.

    There is no guarantee a soft dome will be any better they can be bright too...all I'm saying is make sure YOU listen to them and make sure the treble response is not JUST giving you a pyrotechnics show for home theater. Lots of speakers are built with competion in mind...so like Skeptic said, some speakers exagerrate the frequency extremes to STAND out from the others...the speaker sounds "cool" but after a half hour they become irritating. Short term A/B tests will of course favour the exagerated speaker the brighter speaker the bassier sounding(even if exagerrated) than the more realistic speaker.

    And unfortunately MOST speaker makers have built speakers for home theater consumers where a lilt in the treble is desirable. The mega corporations change wht they say is important for measuring so their speakers look impressive on the graph. Just be careful and long listening with all recording including lesser recording is a good idea.

    A good speaker will make rock and classical sound good...otherwise it's a bad speaker.
  • 12-07-2003, 07:32 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    <<Make sure you listen to a speaker first...it may also be the case the speaker is so bad no store would want to carry them...why not consider that possibility.>>

    WTF RGA!? Are you implying that Axioms are so poor as not to be worthy of inclusion into Best Buy?

    Axioms direct marketing strategy is a key part of their business plan. I don't think there's any sinister plan of "duping people" into buying inferior products with the hope they won't send them back. That is patently absurd.

    So far as reviews are concerned, it's obviously subjective, but speakers that suck DON'T win awards, or the reviewers would be out finding another job real fast. I can't believe that the awards I see on the Axiom site are just shills, that's another absurd statement.

    First of all I never said the reviews were from Shills...shill reviews d exist though but that could apply to any speaker not just Axiom...I never said it to start with however.

    I also never said anything about the speaker itself. I am merely noting that ALL speakers get great reviews...whatever speaker you begin to have an interest in...let's pick one...anybody go do some research on the Energy C3, The B&W DM 303(European loudspeaker of the year), Polk LSI series, Boston Acoustics, Axiom, pretty much everyone.

    Then note the reviewer's name...any idiot who can spin a few words can be a reviewer...it's interesting no-one ever seems to want to check the reviewer's credentials to determine if their opinion is worth a damn.

    A movie may get 90% fresh(meaning good movie go see it) on the Rotten tomatoes site and 10% of the critics may hate it. The numbers mean zilch because maybe the 10% are people with similar tastes to you and the other 90% are hollywood nimrids - or vice versa.

    I have recently listened to the $799.00CDN Paradigm Monitor 5 v3. It's not a bad sounding speaker, it sounds unnatural and doesn't make me believe for a second that Jesse Cook is playing a real acoustic guitar like it sounds on my system because it is missing the entire presentation...from a relatively flat speaker no less. The treble response is much better than the previous year. All told by track 5, I had to leave the room because it was giving me a headache. You go look up the reviews of this speaker in the north American magazines and see the glorious remarks about it, the best-buy awards, the speaker of the year.

    You won't find a review from Hi-fi Choice, What Hi Fi or UHF though and you won't find a review from people who didn't buy it on sites like this one.

    Well I'm giving you my quick review of it right here right now. It's 1) well built 2) it has a definite rock penchant for a standmount and 3) it probably offers good value considering the competition 4) I would rather something different and less fatiguing. None of the magazines would say number 4...except the reviewers from the magazines that won't ever get shipped this speaker. Energy I give em credit sent their excellently reviewed speakers by mgazines who always give excellent reviews and they did pretty good. 3 and 4 stars. But not the typical best speakers ever in this price range...which will be said about the next speaker that they review next month.

    If you're going to go strictly by the reviews...I want to see a review by ONE of Hi FI Choice, UHF and What hi-fi if for no other reason to see another take on the speaker.
  • 12-07-2003, 09:07 PM
    psonic
    this shootout shows the axiom m22ti did very well against some speakers we are very familiar with like b&w, paradigm, etc...and they are not afraid to tell a speakers faults, for example they didn't like the b&w 602 very much...

    http://www.audioholics.com/productre...faceoff3_h.php
  • 12-07-2003, 11:31 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by psonic
    this shootout shows the axiom m22ti did very well against some speakers we are very familiar with like b&w, paradigm, etc...and they are not afraid to tell a speakers faults, for example they didn't like the b&w 602 very much...

    http://www.audioholics.com/productre...faceoff3_h.php

    Yes I have seen this site a few times presented and I always like to note the details. The B&W in question is a 10 year old speaker 3 models old. The original 601 was not a particularly great sounding speaker signidficantly improved upon in version 2 and 3.

    I'm amazed that site can produce such nonsense...and once again it's an opinion.

    I respect the views of the three magazines I mentioned earlier...does not mean I agree with them on every point. Do you agree with a particular film critic on every film you see?

    Note this "The scoring below is based on each speaker doing the duty it is designed for. The numbers are weighed heavily with respect to the individual cost of each unit, thus giving a rating equal to Performance x Price Factor/Value = Rating"

    That is ridiculously foolish.

    They say that the Axiom is better value over the B&W because it is $400 and they talk about the list price of a decade old speaker at $599.00 - hmm, but you don't have to pay $599.00 for that speaker you'd pay maybe $175.00 so ???? then what is the better value?

    Hogwash site. They are right about the old 602's bass response being a bit bloomy...but they required significant power to get going...something these clods likely know. The improvement in the current 602S3 may very well offer the most well balanced bass response of any standmount available in it's price range. A significant improvement...and the price for the new one is still $600US.

    None of this is to say one might like the Axiom better without anywhere near the bass depth but then you have to add a quality sub. In a normal medium/apartment the 602S3 offers more than enough bass on its own down to around 50hz with a wider front baffle.
  • 12-08-2003, 04:18 AM
    skeptic
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    It had to happen sooner or later...but I actually agree with you here.

    Normally I would congratulate you on finally getting something right but I am reminded that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
  • 12-08-2003, 07:25 AM
    Pat D
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Yes I have seen this site a few times presented and I always like to note the details. The B&W in question is a 10 year old speaker 3 models old. The original 601 was not a particularly great sounding speaker signidficantly improved upon in version 2 and 3.

    I'm amazed that site can produce such nonsense...and once again it's an opinion.

    I respect the views of the three magazines I mentioned earlier...does not mean I agree with them on every point. Do you agree with a particular film critic on every film you see?

    Note this "The scoring below is based on each speaker doing the duty it is designed for. The numbers are weighed heavily with respect to the individual cost of each unit, thus giving a rating equal to Performance x Price Factor/Value = Rating"

    That is ridiculously foolish.

    They say that the Axiom is better value over the B&W because it is $400 and they talk about the list price of a decade old speaker at $599.00 - hmm, but you don't have to pay $599.00 for that speaker you'd pay maybe $175.00 so ???? then what is the better value?

    Hogwash site. They are right about the old 602's bass response being a bit bloomy...but they required significant power to get going...something these clods likely know. The improvement in the current 602S3 may very well offer the most well balanced bass response of any standmount available in it's price range. A significant improvement...and the price for the new one is still $600US.

    None of this is to say one might like the Axiom better without anywhere near the bass depth but then you have to add a quality sub. In a normal medium/apartment the 602S3 offers more than enough bass on its own down to around 50hz with a wider front baffle.

    It would actually help if you read what Audioholics said about the B & W 602 S1:

    http://www.audioholics.com/productre...faceoff3_c.php

    They explicitly said it was an older model and the newer versions were better. Maybe it is useful sometimes to compare older speakers to newer models. Some manufacturers managed to get it right years ago, and build speakers that do stand up well today.

    One thing I've learned from your posts on speakers is that my tastes in speakers are apparently quite different from yours--as is the case with some reviewers, Art Dudley being one.

    You rail about Audioholics' rating system, which includes value for cost as a factor. Funny you don't complain when other site and mags do the same thing. This is one problem with reviews here at AR, too, because it certainly appears to me that most people rate on a cost/value basis. I don't know what to do about that, and separating the quality and value ratings doesn't seem to me to do it; but many of the narrative reviews seem helpful. But I agree, I would much rather have a "blind" rating, irrespective of cost, like they do at the National Research Council facilities in Ottawa, you know, those tests you so love to diss. :o

    Do we have any objective measurements of those Audio Note speakers, by the way, or have you just been taking Peter Qvortrup's word for it?
  • 12-08-2003, 07:58 AM
    Feanor
    Amateur reviews have limited value
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by HighFlyer
    ...Can't believe the amazing reviews the Axiom brand gets in this site. ..

    Amateur review such as the typical Audio Review review, (I'm not speaking of the forums where mainly people are extremely knowledgable), are mainly of value with repect to reliability and vendor support. The majority of review contributors don't have the experience to evaluate sound, especially in the context of different room environments or equipment combinations.

    Try reading several professional review and look for common themes. Pay particular attention to comments regarding suitability of the type of music you prefer and room placement.

    I will never again buy a speaker again without having heard it in my listening environment. If I can't have a free, no commitments loan from the vendor, then I must get a full return priviledge.
  • 12-08-2003, 08:52 AM
    3db
    Another solid review for Axiom
    I've auditioned some axiom speakers about 3 years ago while hunting for a sub. Although I wasn't impressed with their subs, I was impressed with there center channels and thei towers. I heard the MTi60s and 80s and I truly was impressed with their soundsatging capabiltiy and attention to details. I personally find them highly enjoyable and non tiring.

    I just wish the mags would review more of PSB lines .

    http://www.hometheatersound.com/equi...om_epic_60.htm
  • 12-08-2003, 11:20 AM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Pat D
    It would actually help if you read what Audioholics said about the B & W 602 S1:

    http://www.audioholics.com/productre...faceoff3_c.php

    They explicitly said it was an older model and the newer versions were better. Maybe it is useful sometimes to compare older speakers to newer models. Some manufacturers managed to get it right years ago, and build speakers that do stand up well today.

    One thing I've learned from your posts on speakers is that my tastes in speakers are apparently quite different from yours--as is the case with some reviewers, Art Dudley being one.

    You rail about Audioholics' rating system, which includes value for cost as a factor. Funny you don't complain when other mags do the same thing. This is one problem with reviews here at AR, too, because it certainly appears to me that most people rate on a cost/value basis. I don't know what to do about that, and separating the quality and value ratings doesn't seem to me to do it; but many of the narrative reviews seem helpful. But I agree, I would much rather have a "blind" rating, irrespective of cost, like they do at the National Research Council facilities in Ottawa, you know, those tests you so love to diss. :o

    Do we have any objective measurements of those Audio Note speakers, by the way, or have you just been taking Peter Qvortrup's word for it?

    Well first you know I don't value the measurements that don't tell you anything about sound...or gee the subjective review would correlate with the measurements...none of the subjective reviews of the De Capo correlate - consensus is generally a great lifelike high end speaker. Can't be said about some of the flatter responses? Measurement therefore are not accurate to what is "liked."

    Audioholics would make more sense if they were comparing similarly priced speakers...like What hi-fi. No problems with giving a speaker 5 stars or a 10/10 in a given price range. But they have a "perceived" performance/value rating that only a buyer can determine. The B&W bass response is a warmer presentation and is not nearly as punchy. Well if you like the less punchy then it's a better speaker for your needs. No matter what it's measurements are. You're an odd fellow since you rely SO heavily on graphs then tell people not to rely on them totally.

    The FACT of the matter is the ONLY way you can rely on a graph is if you sample about a 100 speakers find the ones you like "subjectively" and then get access to ALL of the graphs. If you chose ten from that 100 and they all measure roughly the same then you have an idea of what is best. The NRC tests posted at Harman are incomplete small and not useful for regular buyers. Tests are too small A/B and not the way a normal person sets up their speakers...it's all done by someone else...which is not the normal listening environment which makes it invalid...look up validity...it's not never will be period. Another advertising gimmick - it works people buy a lot of irritating dreck in the name of accuracy. At the listening position in your room is the ONLY thing that would count. And that graph would change in every room.

    A slight lilt in the treble is to me and many people FAR worse than almost any other anomolie. Mid Bass Hump for example is not overly irritating to me...especially if amplified rock is your bag.

    As for the Audio Note's why do you care? You can e-mail Hi Fi Choice for the measurements perhaps...of the An E/D - all their speakers have a similar sound http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=475 I'd be more interested in the fact that in a blind level matched room they sounded worthy of recommendation. That speaker can be bought new for $2000.00CDN. So that Value rating would rise no doubt. Though they do reference their measurements a little at least.

    I would suggest looking up the measurements of the very original Snell designs but the changes AN has made are fairly large in that the AN's are corner near wall placements where the Snells were not.

    Also all Audio Note amplifiers, DACS, etc are measured or tested through Audio Note speakers...so presumably you might get information about the speaker indirectly through the ancillary gear. Can't build a good amp with hopeless speakers - if you build part of that sound by ear.

    You can also ask about the AN E with your good buddoies at Stereophile since it was the speaker they used to test tube amplifiers with - presumably they would want a relatively accurate speaker or good speaker to do that no? http://www.stereophile.com/reference/357/index1.html

    And buyers are telling. Despite the looks they're doing pretty well. Despite no reviews of the AN K and the fact that I never heard of them...compared to the De Capo, N801, Studio series, ML and a host of others I have already mentioned on the old forum thread, side by side with some of them...it beat them all...the De Capo was closestdo it's smoother presentation but the soundstage had a character in depth that was always there on a all recording which while I like it - in the end i wanted a more straight shooter. (plus I preferred the treble response of the original version ... rolled off but not as hot.
  • 12-08-2003, 11:28 AM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    .compared to the De Capo, N801, Studio series, ML and a host of others I have already mentioned on the old forum thread, side by side with some of them...it beat them all...the De Capo was closestdo it's smoother presentation but the soundstage had a character in depth that was always there on a all recording which while I like it - in the end i wanted a more straight shooter. (plus I preferred the treble response of the original version ... rolled off but not as hot.

    Correction...N805 not N801. ML was Aerius i.
  • 12-08-2003, 11:29 AM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    Amateur review such as the typical Audio Review review, (I'm not speaking of the forums where mainly people are extremely knowledgable), are mainly of value with repect to reliability and vendor support. The majority of review contributors don't have the experience to evaluate sound, especially in the context of different room environments or equipment combinations.

    Try reading several professional review and look for common themes. Pay particular attention to comments regarding suitability of the type of music you prefer and room placement.

    I will never again buy a speaker again without having heard it in my listening environment. If I can't have a free, no commitments loan from the vendor, then I must get a full return priviledge.

    Feaner...you're correct. If a dealer won't allow you a full home audition then they have something to hide...a bad product in most cases.

    One thing I liked about Soundhounds, my dealer in Victoria, wa shte first time I went in there and was talking to them they offerred tl let me take home a whole system. By all means take 4 or 5 speaker cables home try em out for a few weeks...Speakers etc no problem. They actually prefer you do that because they don't like people coming back unhappy because the box is opened and they can't sell it as new anymore. Basically tha's a hassle. Far better to letyou try it out...if you're happy then you're less likely to return it...if you do who cares it was a demo model anyway.

    So when they don't want to let you try it at home, what am i to think? Is it crap? Maybe.