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Axiom-Is the hype to be believed?
Hi. I am a newbie to stereo and audio components (first post) but have read a lot in this site and am impressed with all the knowledge and helpful posts out there.
I live up in Canada and have been searching for a speaker system to go with my Denon avr 1403 receiver. Some of the obvious choices I'm looking at (Canadian so better priced) Energy, Paradigm and Axiom.
Can't believe the amazing reviews the Axiom brand gets in this site. Fundamentally should one not hear the speakers they purchase and not go on reviews (Axiom has no retailers or factory sound room). Are these reviews to be believed? Perhaps I am a little skeptical by nature...any comments out there?
My room is only 11 x 17 with 8 foot ceilings. Looking for a 5.1 system and I would describe myself as a 50/50 music vs. HT listener.
Thanks.
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Hi Flyer! (couldn't resist)
Welcome to the AR boards. While your guaranteed to get a lot of different opinions here about speakers, or just about anything else for that matter, anyone who's heard Axioms will probably give them a thumbs up. I've only heard the little M2i's and was thoroughly impressed. Probably the only reason I didn't choose Axiom for my HT setup what the fact that I got such a great deal on my main CSW T500's, and wanted to stick with all Cambridge Soundworks speakers. The Axioms have a more forward sound than the CSW speakers too. CSW uses Silk domes, as opposed to titanium for the Axiom. Axioms are just a bit brighter and in your face, as opposed to more laid back for the CSW speakers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFlyer
Are these reviews to be believed? Perhaps I am a little skeptical by nature...any comments out there?
I'm also "skeptic(al)" by nature. I think you SHOULD listen to speakers before buying them. You have to live with them for a long time unless you can afford to constantly trade. Usually that is an expensive strategy in the long run but some people do it. Often these kinds of sellers will allow you an in home trial period with various refund policies. You may have to pay for shipping one or both ways if you don't like your purchase. Perhaps these types of arrangements can be negotiated with some sellers. It's very risky to buy this type of equipment on the kinds of reviews you'd get at this site anyway. You don't even know if the reviewers are shills for the seller. Buyer beware!
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"Shills for the seller"...yes has me concerned as well. I also noticed that Axiom has an affiliate progam that you will receive 5% towards their products of the sales referrals attributed to you. In addition, a lot of the sites that review the Axiom systems have banners advertising the Axiom product...this site is no exception.
I have enjoyed roadbiker review as an avid cyclist and certainly know that not all reviewers are "shills" but nonetheless at least with my bike purchases I could test the product myself.
As a newbie I don't/can't really appreciate the terms "bright" and "muddy" yet as I have no reference base.
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return policy
I've never heard the axioms myself, but they do have a return policy that says if you don't like them you can return them within thirty days. They have free shipping, but you'd have to pay return shipping to return them. Might be worth it.
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Thanks, I was aware of that. Return shipping could be big bucks. GB
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Almost everybody hypes their products a bit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFlyer
Hi. I am a newbie to stereo and audio components (first post) but have read a lot in this site and am impressed with all the knowledge and helpful posts out there.
I live up in Canada and have been searching for a speaker system to go with my Denon avr 1403 receiver. Some of the obvious choices I'm looking at (Canadian so better priced) Energy, Paradigm and Axiom.
Can't believe the amazing reviews the Axiom brand gets in this site. Fundamentally should one not hear the speakers they purchase and not go on reviews (Axiom has no retailers or factory sound room). Are these reviews to be believed? Perhaps I am a little skeptical by nature...any comments out there?
My room is only 11 x 17 with 8 foot ceilings. Looking for a 5.1 system and I would describe myself as a 50/50 music vs. HT listener.
Thanks.
The ads from Paradigm, Energy, PSB, and just about anyone else do it to. But that doesn't mean they don't make good speakers. I haven't heard an Axiom speaker for a good many years, but the ones I did hear way back then were pretty good as I recall.
I'd look for moderately sensitive speakers (often somewhat incorrectly called efficient speakers) as your room is actually a good size and you have one of Denon's smaller receivers. The smaller Axiom speakers seem to be relatively insensitive--nothing unreasonable, mind you. They also generally measure pretty well. Check them out here:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/speakermeasurements/
You can return Axiom speakers if you don't like them--perhaps you should find out how much that costs. But of course you should listen to speakers before being finally committed, and listen to them at home. You're the one that has to live with them. But consider that there is some time and money spent in getting to and listening to speakers in a showroom, too. What sort of return policies do the local dealers have?
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>As a newbie I don't/can't really appreciate the terms "bright" and "muddy" yet as I have no reference base.<
Bright would seen to have a more pronounced treble as opposed to midrange response. Bright is not always a bad thing. My maggies are considered "bright" by some audiophiles, and there's even an optional resistor to put into the crossover to tone down the tweeters responce. (although I would never use it) Unfortunately bright has gotten a bad name, as a lot of cheap gear is unseemly bright, and that what we would call "etched," or in the worse case "tinny."
The Axioms are NOT like this, they are just brighter than my CSW speakers. (so are my maggies) I happen to LIKE bright speakers. (perhaps I should have bought the Axioms)?
Muddy anyone can understand, and it's something you NEVER want in your speaker response. It's characterized by uncontrolled distorted bass. Usually only low end speakers have an overall muddy bass, although I've heard some very good speakers that got muddy when they were asked for more SPL than they were capably of. Actually, almost all woofers start to distort at an amazingly low SPL, rising up to 10%-30% distortion or more as you start to get near their limits.
I think trying out the speakers in your home is WORTH the extra $$$ if you have to ship them back.
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Make sure you listen to a speaker first...it may also be the case the speaker is so bad no store would want to carry them...why not consider that possibility.
I like the reviews by Hi Fi Choice because they have aa panel of reviewers and listen blind level matched. So, there is no price, name brand and price bias. What Hi-fi also listens in a panel and they review directly against several of the competitors side by side...something most of us don't get to do as one dealer will carry 3 brands another dealer carries 3 nd another etc so we don't listen with the same gear in the same room...which is not really a fair method of listening and evaluating. And even the more subjective reviews with technical arguments don't ever get the measured result to match the subjective(which means the measured result is not telling you everything you need to know...but at least it fills the page and is another feel-good re-enforcer to your bias that you're buying the right speaker). It may sound atrocious but the graph says it's the right speaker so when in doubt ignore what you hear. And it works because a lot of abysmal speakers get sold over and over year in and year out.
I have nothing against what Axiom is doing. They sell you the speaker knowing most people will never send it back no matter what. But they ensure you listen in your own home and will change the positioning to suit your needs and they probably sound ok maybe great maybe not. But it's better than selling in the Wall-O-speakers against competitors - after all competition is a bad thing becaue you might go home with a Polk and not an Axiom. Axiom assures you go home with their speaker...and they know once there it's highly unlikely you'll return them. And most people don't have other speakers in their home. So it will undoubtedly sound bette than comptitors in a store's bad room with wall-O-Speakers so you can say that your Axiom sounds better than anything and everything else. Smart business sense...Magnepan does the same as does nOhr and a whole bunch of others.
No matter how well reviewed and what the leading measurements say...there is no gauarantee you'll like the speaker. I would lean to the B&W 303 in this price range...I have not heard everything but it gets well reviewed by the subjective reviewers and did the best in the BLIND listening panel. Though it is a bit of an older speaker and it may have been surpassed and I'm not overly enthusiastic about its brighter leaning tweeter. The Energy C3 is a few hundred Canadian more and is pretty good as well. I would try for a more natural sounding speaker that integrateds the overall sound smoothly by closely matching the drive units. That means a tweeter and a woofer that have a similar sonic signature. It's one thing for a paper woofer to create a flatter response and a metal tweeter to create a flatter response...it's another for them to provide an integrated sound or mesh together seamlessly. I have yet to hear METAL drivers sound natural and integrate properly with the other drivers. Your mileage may vary.
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Whether you listen to speakers in your own home or in a store here is some advice and traps you should be aware of.
If two speakers play at different loudness, the louder of the two will usually seem to sound better on initial comparison. Audio stores have tricks for setting up speakers and choosing recordings to make the ones they want to sell sound better. Small changes in positioning or acoustics can make a big change in sound. Some dealers will tell you that certain speakers have to be broken in to sound good. This is very controversial. If you believe it, be certain you can bring back a pair that don't break in sounding like what you heard at the store. Speakers which present amplifiers with difficult electrical loads will be demonstrated with very high quality expensive amplifiers or receivers. The results with your equipment may be different. Don't get tricked into believing that wires will make a big difference. Even among serious advocates of special audiophile wires, they will frankly admit that the differences at best are subtle.
My advice is to become very familiar with unamplified live music of the type you listen to most by attending as many live concerts as you can. Classical music is best, jazz is OK. Muscial genres such as rock or pop are always gimmicked at the studio and do not represent actual live sound. Get the best recordings of the type of live music you are familiar with and use that for critical listening to judge the attributes and shortcomings of different speakers. Speakers may sound initially impressive because of some special characteristic such as a punchy midrange, shrill high frequencies or exaggerated bass but experienced listeners know that this type of distortion become irritating with time. The equipment that gives the most satisfaction over an extended time usually is the most accurate models.
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Wow...great posts
I'm starting to realize I've got way more learning to do. I think you are absolutely right about online retailers figuring you will not return their product and the fact that some don't even have a listening room has me very skeptical.
Pat D. expressed some concern about my Denon avr 1403 which is a 5.1 ch receiver but at the low end of the spectrum. How will this effect my speaker choices. Most of the retailers I spoke to thought my receiver was more than adequate.
RGA I checked out Hi-Fi Choice and thank you for the suggestion. They don't have many Canadian products listed so I am figuring I'll be paying more just to get it here in this country. As I am somewhat limited in my budget ($2,000-2,500 Canadian) I'd like to maximize my dollar value. I think your suggestion of the Energy C3's may be the right direction. Your comment about metal drivers, is that in response to Axiom?
One point of interest is that Axiom has won several awards for their products.So I'm not sure their product would be considered of poor quality. Are their bogus reviewers ou there? I checked out audioaholics and they reviewed the M22ti favourably (apparently they are unbiased as well).
Lots to research, thanks kindly to all for your time and efforts. GB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFlyer
I'm starting to realize I've got way more learning to do. I think you are absolutely right about online retailers figuring you will not return their product and the fact that some don't even have a listening room has me very skeptical. GB
Don't dismiss internet only companies too quick. Whatever speakers you buy you will be paying shipping one way or another. For the risk of the price to ship they give you an opportunity to hear their products in the only place that matters, your home with your gear. The successful online companies are able to deliver a better product for less money than their competition by virtue of the fact that they are not concerned with middle man mark-up. If you can get an online speaker system for $2000 that can compete with a system in a b&m retailer that costs $3500 [conservative est] and it costs $250 to ship which is the better buy? Add to that the fact that many people have reported positive experiences [ie they REALLY liked them compared to others they heard], and the gamble you take isn't as great as the rewards it can reap. This business model can only survive if they deliver better bang for the buck. Nowhere does bad news from disappointed consumers travel quicker than on the internet.
Do your research and make your choices, but don't think that the people who report positively about online companies are looking for people to share their misery. It's quite the other way around. Happy hunting.
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<<Make sure you listen to a speaker first...it may also be the case the speaker is so bad no store would want to carry them...why not consider that possibility.>>
WTF RGA!? Are you implying that Axioms are so poor as not to be worthy of inclusion into Best Buy?
Axioms direct marketing strategy is a key part of their business plan. I don't think there's any sinister plan of "duping people" into buying inferior products with the hope they won't send them back. That is patently absurd.
So far as reviews are concerned, it's obviously subjective, but speakers that suck DON'T win awards, or the reviewers would be out finding another job real fast. I can't believe that the awards I see on the Axiom site are just shills, that's another absurd statement.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
Speakers may sound initially impressive because of some special characteristic such as a punchy midrange, shrill high frequencies or exaggerated bass but experienced listeners know that this type of distortion become irritating with time. The equipment that gives the most satisfaction over an extended time usually is the most accurate models.
It had to happen sooner or later...but I actually agree with you here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFlyer
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One point of interest is that Axiom has won several awards for their products.So I'm not sure their product would be considered of poor quality. Are their bogus reviewers ou there? I checked out audioaholics and they reviewed the M22ti favourably (apparently they are unbiased as well).
Lots to research, thanks kindly to all for your time and efforts. GB
The Ford Focus won many awards too...read the 2004 Lemon aid used car guide about the car and about the value of awards.
Sony puts out movies. Not long ago Sony was caught because there was a reviewer who was giving great reviews to new movies under the Sony conglomorate...someone did some checking and the film critic didn't exist...it was Sony marketing who invented the critic and the glorious reviews. Why would you presume that a magazine is any different. Who own Road and Track? Who owns Sound and Vision - or who FUNDS them?
I am not a big fan of budget home theater systems because to me it's like an all-in one printer...soes it all and nothing well. I have a printer because I don't much care about the quality of photos, or speed or scanning. But no serious photographer would print a picture off the Lexmark 1150 and no serious business would want this as a printer, copier etc. But hey it was cheap does it all and saves space...I knew thi going in and it fits the bill and lives up to my expectations of it.
Receivers are identical same thing in audio but most consumers don't know of their limitations. Which usually starts with the anaemic power supplies. But again denon for the money is probably decent but it simply isn't going to do everything...You knew that of course because there is the 5803.
Hi Fi CHoice doesn't get a lot of Canadian or American gear...hmmm. Why not presume to make a few guesses as to why not.
The Energy C3 for example got 3 stars in What Hi-Fi with the warning that the speaker will likely become fatiguing on longer listening. 3 out of 5 is not a bad rating by the way they are simply cautioning the buyer to make sure you get a longer listen because the sound can be a bit edgy and once that happens you are likely to stop listening to them and become dissatisfied. Look at the Canadian reviews of the Canadian speaker and they seem like the best speakers ever made for the money right...or was that the Canadian Axiom or the Canadian Paradigm...heck the same magazine says it about ALL of them...hmmmm.
If the only thing I ever take out of University History courses is to not take media at face-value then my experience there is well worth it long run.
I say it again, there are magazines and reviewers I like more than others Hi fi CHoice, UHF I tend to prefer...that still doesn't mean I agree with them any more than another reviewer...indeed, I disagree with both. For instance Hi Fi Choice gave the B&W CM2 5 stars and the CDM 1NT 4. I personally feel they should be flipped(and stars are dangerous rating guide). But, it's not like one is total crap and they blew it - just a difference of opinion. But it shows me that if I'm spending the money...that reviews are not a gaurantee.
And if you read the reviews closer of even some of the well reviewed speakers you may come across the terms about the treble region as a bit "hot, emphasized, not quite refined, slightly excessive, forward etc" all mean that there is a very REAL chance the speaker is going to be an irritating mess.
And MOST speakers with metal tweeters those are the typical adjectives associated.
There is no guarantee a soft dome will be any better they can be bright too...all I'm saying is make sure YOU listen to them and make sure the treble response is not JUST giving you a pyrotechnics show for home theater. Lots of speakers are built with competion in mind...so like Skeptic said, some speakers exagerrate the frequency extremes to STAND out from the others...the speaker sounds "cool" but after a half hour they become irritating. Short term A/B tests will of course favour the exagerated speaker the brighter speaker the bassier sounding(even if exagerrated) than the more realistic speaker.
And unfortunately MOST speaker makers have built speakers for home theater consumers where a lilt in the treble is desirable. The mega corporations change wht they say is important for measuring so their speakers look impressive on the graph. Just be careful and long listening with all recording including lesser recording is a good idea.
A good speaker will make rock and classical sound good...otherwise it's a bad speaker.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
<<Make sure you listen to a speaker first...it may also be the case the speaker is so bad no store would want to carry them...why not consider that possibility.>>
WTF RGA!? Are you implying that Axioms are so poor as not to be worthy of inclusion into Best Buy?
Axioms direct marketing strategy is a key part of their business plan. I don't think there's any sinister plan of "duping people" into buying inferior products with the hope they won't send them back. That is patently absurd.
So far as reviews are concerned, it's obviously subjective, but speakers that suck DON'T win awards, or the reviewers would be out finding another job real fast. I can't believe that the awards I see on the Axiom site are just shills, that's another absurd statement.
First of all I never said the reviews were from Shills...shill reviews d exist though but that could apply to any speaker not just Axiom...I never said it to start with however.
I also never said anything about the speaker itself. I am merely noting that ALL speakers get great reviews...whatever speaker you begin to have an interest in...let's pick one...anybody go do some research on the Energy C3, The B&W DM 303(European loudspeaker of the year), Polk LSI series, Boston Acoustics, Axiom, pretty much everyone.
Then note the reviewer's name...any idiot who can spin a few words can be a reviewer...it's interesting no-one ever seems to want to check the reviewer's credentials to determine if their opinion is worth a damn.
A movie may get 90% fresh(meaning good movie go see it) on the Rotten tomatoes site and 10% of the critics may hate it. The numbers mean zilch because maybe the 10% are people with similar tastes to you and the other 90% are hollywood nimrids - or vice versa.
I have recently listened to the $799.00CDN Paradigm Monitor 5 v3. It's not a bad sounding speaker, it sounds unnatural and doesn't make me believe for a second that Jesse Cook is playing a real acoustic guitar like it sounds on my system because it is missing the entire presentation...from a relatively flat speaker no less. The treble response is much better than the previous year. All told by track 5, I had to leave the room because it was giving me a headache. You go look up the reviews of this speaker in the north American magazines and see the glorious remarks about it, the best-buy awards, the speaker of the year.
You won't find a review from Hi-fi Choice, What Hi Fi or UHF though and you won't find a review from people who didn't buy it on sites like this one.
Well I'm giving you my quick review of it right here right now. It's 1) well built 2) it has a definite rock penchant for a standmount and 3) it probably offers good value considering the competition 4) I would rather something different and less fatiguing. None of the magazines would say number 4...except the reviewers from the magazines that won't ever get shipped this speaker. Energy I give em credit sent their excellently reviewed speakers by mgazines who always give excellent reviews and they did pretty good. 3 and 4 stars. But not the typical best speakers ever in this price range...which will be said about the next speaker that they review next month.
If you're going to go strictly by the reviews...I want to see a review by ONE of Hi FI Choice, UHF and What hi-fi if for no other reason to see another take on the speaker.
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this shootout shows the axiom m22ti did very well against some speakers we are very familiar with like b&w, paradigm, etc...and they are not afraid to tell a speakers faults, for example they didn't like the b&w 602 very much...
http://www.audioholics.com/productre...faceoff3_h.php
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psonic
this shootout shows the axiom m22ti did very well against some speakers we are very familiar with like b&w, paradigm, etc...and they are not afraid to tell a speakers faults, for example they didn't like the b&w 602 very much...
http://www.audioholics.com/productre...faceoff3_h.php
Yes I have seen this site a few times presented and I always like to note the details. The B&W in question is a 10 year old speaker 3 models old. The original 601 was not a particularly great sounding speaker signidficantly improved upon in version 2 and 3.
I'm amazed that site can produce such nonsense...and once again it's an opinion.
I respect the views of the three magazines I mentioned earlier...does not mean I agree with them on every point. Do you agree with a particular film critic on every film you see?
Note this "The scoring below is based on each speaker doing the duty it is designed for. The numbers are weighed heavily with respect to the individual cost of each unit, thus giving a rating equal to Performance x Price Factor/Value = Rating"
That is ridiculously foolish.
They say that the Axiom is better value over the B&W because it is $400 and they talk about the list price of a decade old speaker at $599.00 - hmm, but you don't have to pay $599.00 for that speaker you'd pay maybe $175.00 so ???? then what is the better value?
Hogwash site. They are right about the old 602's bass response being a bit bloomy...but they required significant power to get going...something these clods likely know. The improvement in the current 602S3 may very well offer the most well balanced bass response of any standmount available in it's price range. A significant improvement...and the price for the new one is still $600US.
None of this is to say one might like the Axiom better without anywhere near the bass depth but then you have to add a quality sub. In a normal medium/apartment the 602S3 offers more than enough bass on its own down to around 50hz with a wider front baffle.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
It had to happen sooner or later...but I actually agree with you here.
Normally I would congratulate you on finally getting something right but I am reminded that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Yes I have seen this site a few times presented and I always like to note the details. The B&W in question is a 10 year old speaker 3 models old. The original 601 was not a particularly great sounding speaker signidficantly improved upon in version 2 and 3.
I'm amazed that site can produce such nonsense...and once again it's an opinion.
I respect the views of the three magazines I mentioned earlier...does not mean I agree with them on every point. Do you agree with a particular film critic on every film you see?
Note this "The scoring below is based on each speaker doing the duty it is designed for. The numbers are weighed heavily with respect to the individual cost of each unit, thus giving a rating equal to Performance x Price Factor/Value = Rating"
That is ridiculously foolish.
They say that the Axiom is better value over the B&W because it is $400 and they talk about the list price of a decade old speaker at $599.00 - hmm, but you don't have to pay $599.00 for that speaker you'd pay maybe $175.00 so ???? then what is the better value?
Hogwash site. They are right about the old 602's bass response being a bit bloomy...but they required significant power to get going...something these clods likely know. The improvement in the current 602S3 may very well offer the most well balanced bass response of any standmount available in it's price range. A significant improvement...and the price for the new one is still $600US.
None of this is to say one might like the Axiom better without anywhere near the bass depth but then you have to add a quality sub. In a normal medium/apartment the 602S3 offers more than enough bass on its own down to around 50hz with a wider front baffle.
It would actually help if you read what Audioholics said about the B & W 602 S1:
http://www.audioholics.com/productre...faceoff3_c.php
They explicitly said it was an older model and the newer versions were better. Maybe it is useful sometimes to compare older speakers to newer models. Some manufacturers managed to get it right years ago, and build speakers that do stand up well today.
One thing I've learned from your posts on speakers is that my tastes in speakers are apparently quite different from yours--as is the case with some reviewers, Art Dudley being one.
You rail about Audioholics' rating system, which includes value for cost as a factor. Funny you don't complain when other site and mags do the same thing. This is one problem with reviews here at AR, too, because it certainly appears to me that most people rate on a cost/value basis. I don't know what to do about that, and separating the quality and value ratings doesn't seem to me to do it; but many of the narrative reviews seem helpful. But I agree, I would much rather have a "blind" rating, irrespective of cost, like they do at the National Research Council facilities in Ottawa, you know, those tests you so love to diss. :o
Do we have any objective measurements of those Audio Note speakers, by the way, or have you just been taking Peter Qvortrup's word for it?
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Amateur reviews have limited value
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Originally Posted by HighFlyer
...Can't believe the amazing reviews the Axiom brand gets in this site. ..
Amateur review such as the typical Audio Review review, (I'm not speaking of the forums where mainly people are extremely knowledgable), are mainly of value with repect to reliability and vendor support. The majority of review contributors don't have the experience to evaluate sound, especially in the context of different room environments or equipment combinations.
Try reading several professional review and look for common themes. Pay particular attention to comments regarding suitability of the type of music you prefer and room placement.
I will never again buy a speaker again without having heard it in my listening environment. If I can't have a free, no commitments loan from the vendor, then I must get a full return priviledge.
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Another solid review for Axiom
I've auditioned some axiom speakers about 3 years ago while hunting for a sub. Although I wasn't impressed with their subs, I was impressed with there center channels and thei towers. I heard the MTi60s and 80s and I truly was impressed with their soundsatging capabiltiy and attention to details. I personally find them highly enjoyable and non tiring.
I just wish the mags would review more of PSB lines .
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equi...om_epic_60.htm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
It would actually help if you read what Audioholics said about the B & W 602 S1:
http://www.audioholics.com/productre...faceoff3_c.php
They explicitly said it was an older model and the newer versions were better. Maybe it is useful sometimes to compare older speakers to newer models. Some manufacturers managed to get it right years ago, and build speakers that do stand up well today.
One thing I've learned from your posts on speakers is that my tastes in speakers are apparently quite different from yours--as is the case with some reviewers, Art Dudley being one.
You rail about Audioholics' rating system, which includes value for cost as a factor. Funny you don't complain when other mags do the same thing. This is one problem with reviews here at AR, too, because it certainly appears to me that most people rate on a cost/value basis. I don't know what to do about that, and separating the quality and value ratings doesn't seem to me to do it; but many of the narrative reviews seem helpful. But I agree, I would much rather have a "blind" rating, irrespective of cost, like they do at the National Research Council facilities in Ottawa, you know, those tests you so love to diss. :o
Do we have any objective measurements of those Audio Note speakers, by the way, or have you just been taking Peter Qvortrup's word for it?
Well first you know I don't value the measurements that don't tell you anything about sound...or gee the subjective review would correlate with the measurements...none of the subjective reviews of the De Capo correlate - consensus is generally a great lifelike high end speaker. Can't be said about some of the flatter responses? Measurement therefore are not accurate to what is "liked."
Audioholics would make more sense if they were comparing similarly priced speakers...like What hi-fi. No problems with giving a speaker 5 stars or a 10/10 in a given price range. But they have a "perceived" performance/value rating that only a buyer can determine. The B&W bass response is a warmer presentation and is not nearly as punchy. Well if you like the less punchy then it's a better speaker for your needs. No matter what it's measurements are. You're an odd fellow since you rely SO heavily on graphs then tell people not to rely on them totally.
The FACT of the matter is the ONLY way you can rely on a graph is if you sample about a 100 speakers find the ones you like "subjectively" and then get access to ALL of the graphs. If you chose ten from that 100 and they all measure roughly the same then you have an idea of what is best. The NRC tests posted at Harman are incomplete small and not useful for regular buyers. Tests are too small A/B and not the way a normal person sets up their speakers...it's all done by someone else...which is not the normal listening environment which makes it invalid...look up validity...it's not never will be period. Another advertising gimmick - it works people buy a lot of irritating dreck in the name of accuracy. At the listening position in your room is the ONLY thing that would count. And that graph would change in every room.
A slight lilt in the treble is to me and many people FAR worse than almost any other anomolie. Mid Bass Hump for example is not overly irritating to me...especially if amplified rock is your bag.
As for the Audio Note's why do you care? You can e-mail Hi Fi Choice for the measurements perhaps...of the An E/D - all their speakers have a similar sound http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=475 I'd be more interested in the fact that in a blind level matched room they sounded worthy of recommendation. That speaker can be bought new for $2000.00CDN. So that Value rating would rise no doubt. Though they do reference their measurements a little at least.
I would suggest looking up the measurements of the very original Snell designs but the changes AN has made are fairly large in that the AN's are corner near wall placements where the Snells were not.
Also all Audio Note amplifiers, DACS, etc are measured or tested through Audio Note speakers...so presumably you might get information about the speaker indirectly through the ancillary gear. Can't build a good amp with hopeless speakers - if you build part of that sound by ear.
You can also ask about the AN E with your good buddoies at Stereophile since it was the speaker they used to test tube amplifiers with - presumably they would want a relatively accurate speaker or good speaker to do that no? http://www.stereophile.com/reference/357/index1.html
And buyers are telling. Despite the looks they're doing pretty well. Despite no reviews of the AN K and the fact that I never heard of them...compared to the De Capo, N801, Studio series, ML and a host of others I have already mentioned on the old forum thread, side by side with some of them...it beat them all...the De Capo was closestdo it's smoother presentation but the soundstage had a character in depth that was always there on a all recording which while I like it - in the end i wanted a more straight shooter. (plus I preferred the treble response of the original version ... rolled off but not as hot.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
.compared to the De Capo, N801, Studio series, ML and a host of others I have already mentioned on the old forum thread, side by side with some of them...it beat them all...the De Capo was closestdo it's smoother presentation but the soundstage had a character in depth that was always there on a all recording which while I like it - in the end i wanted a more straight shooter. (plus I preferred the treble response of the original version ... rolled off but not as hot.
Correction...N805 not N801. ML was Aerius i.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Amateur review such as the typical Audio Review review, (I'm not speaking of the forums where mainly people are extremely knowledgable), are mainly of value with repect to reliability and vendor support. The majority of review contributors don't have the experience to evaluate sound, especially in the context of different room environments or equipment combinations.
Try reading several professional review and look for common themes. Pay particular attention to comments regarding suitability of the type of music you prefer and room placement.
I will never again buy a speaker again without having heard it in my listening environment. If I can't have a free, no commitments loan from the vendor, then I must get a full return priviledge.
Feaner...you're correct. If a dealer won't allow you a full home audition then they have something to hide...a bad product in most cases.
One thing I liked about Soundhounds, my dealer in Victoria, wa shte first time I went in there and was talking to them they offerred tl let me take home a whole system. By all means take 4 or 5 speaker cables home try em out for a few weeks...Speakers etc no problem. They actually prefer you do that because they don't like people coming back unhappy because the box is opened and they can't sell it as new anymore. Basically tha's a hassle. Far better to letyou try it out...if you're happy then you're less likely to return it...if you do who cares it was a demo model anyway.
So when they don't want to let you try it at home, what am i to think? Is it crap? Maybe.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Feaner...you're correct. If a dealer won't allow you a full home audition then they have something to hide...a bad product in most cases.
.
So when they don't want to let you try it at home, what am i to think? Is it crap? Maybe.
But thats not Axiom's policy. They have a money back return policy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db
But thats not Axiom's policy. They have a money back return policy
Who is talking about Axiom?
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Axiom is not to be believed
Highflyer; a friend of mine bought the Axiom M22 speakers last year, and I heard them 1 time an didn't want to hear them again. I thought that they sounded BRIGHT almost brittle sounding. He had them in use as back speakers in his HT setup. In this context they sounded ok, but I wouldn't use them in any other application. As an aside, I would look at a kit speaker offered by www.partsexpress.com. They are BR-1 and are only 136.00 for a pair. Everything I have read about them seems be positive. You might think about a couple of sets of these instead of the Axioms.
Recently on a different BB - Madisound.com - I saw a posting stating that this guy had 2 sets of M22's and he was willing to give up 1 set of these speakers to a cross over designer who could help fix the cross-overs in the set of speakers he was going to keep. Like others, he thought that speakers were a little over the top tweeter wise.
Another Cyclist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db
But thats not Axiom's policy. They have a money back return policy
Just a note though...you are still stck with shipping them back, duty charges, shipping charges etc. Depending what you order for them this could run you well in excess of $100.00. I can go to a dealer and take four sets of speakers home several amps and cd players and try out the combo I like for free(well Gas).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
The Ford Focus won many awards too...read the 2004 Lemon aid used car guide about the car and about the value of awards.
Completely nonsensical analogy because the Lemon Aid guide is entirely based on reliability and recall history, nothing to do with performance or value. The Ford Focus is one of the better compact cars I've rented, but since, like most auto reviewers, I don't own one, the recall history and reliability mean nothing to me so long as it stays tight for the one or two days that I have it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
I am not a big fan of budget home theater systems because to me it's like an all-in one printer...soes it all and nothing well. I have a printer because I don't much care about the quality of photos, or speed or scanning. But no serious photographer would print a picture off the Lexmark 1150 and no serious business would want this as a printer, copier etc. But hey it was cheap does it all and saves space...I knew thi going in and it fits the bill and lives up to my expectations of it.
Another bad analogy because we're not talking about budget home theater systems, we're talking about Axiom speakers. And last I checked, those only do one thing ... reproduce sound from an amp signal. If you want to dispute its merits, do so on that basis rather than bringing all this off-topic noise into the discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Receivers are identical same thing in audio but most consumers don't know of their limitations. Which usually starts with the anaemic power supplies. But again denon for the money is probably decent but it simply isn't going to do everything...You knew that of course because there is the 5803.
Again, we're talking about speakers, so more off-topic nonsense. When you refer to "limitations" what are you talking about? "Most consumers" don't care about the "limitations" that you refer to because the receivers meet their needs and their budgetary restrictions. It has nothing to do with their lack of knowledge on the subject as you assert. They know that better stuff is out there, and they frankly couldn't give enough of a rat's behind to pay an extra $2k+ to step up to home theatre separates. Count me in that same category. Stick to your own opinions and don't try and assume that people out there make the choices that they do because they just don't know better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Hi Fi CHoice doesn't get a lot of Canadian or American gear...hmmm. Why not presume to make a few guesses as to why not.
Why don't you take a guess? It's got about as much worth as anybody else's, unless you got some inside information that you're jealously guarding from everyone. All you're doing is bringing up inneuendo so you can make a point without really making a point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
And if you read the reviews closer of even some of the well reviewed speakers you may come across the terms about the treble region as a bit "hot, emphasized, not quite refined, slightly excessive, forward etc" all mean that there is a very REAL chance the speaker is going to be an irritating mess.
That's of course if people share your opinion of what an irritating mess sounds like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Short term A/B tests will of course favour the exagerated speaker the brighter speaker the bassier sounding(even if exagerrated) than the more realistic speaker.
Where's your proof of this? Listening tests done by Floyd Toole (which have a lot more bias control built into the research design than your sighted/biased listenings) and others have demonstrated that the top criteria for speaker preferences were even frequency response in the midrange, freedom from distortion, and wide dispersion. Those criteria sound to me like they would be part of a speaker design that sounds realistic. Where does it say that exaggerated bass and treble are preferred criteria?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
And unfortunately MOST speaker makers have built speakers for home theater consumers where a lilt in the treble is desirable. The mega corporations change wht they say is important for measuring so their speakers look impressive on the graph. Just be careful and long listening with all recording including lesser recording is a good idea.
No, the mega corporations are about maximizing the profit for a set of speakers. Whether or not that results in a good set of speakers for the money is for consumers to sort out. What consumer makes decisions based solely on what they see on a graph?
If anything, speaker makers do their best to hide whatever a frequency response graph will show (i.e. Bose, the largest speaker manufacturer in the world) since those will highlight the deficiencies on poorly designed speakers, and those compnies that do provide specs generally go more with a simple one-liner (i.e. +-3db 40hz-16khz -- except that they don't mention whether that response was an anecholic measurement or some doctored in-room response) than anything more substantive than that. FEW speaker companies put frequency response graphs into any of their spec sheets or marketing materials. Agreed that listening tests and long careful auditoning is necessary.
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Hype is always an issue when you're dealing with online-only brands. Compared to other purchases, speakers are by far the most subjective component in most audio systems. And as such, I personally cannot ever just blindly buy a set of speakers based on what I read about it. Reviews and recommendations to me are helpful for shortlisting a set of speakers that I should try out.
Incessant hype about online-only speakers is nothing new. People who are fanboys of speakers available at retail just have to tell people they want to convince to go find a local dealer and listen for themselves. Those who want to hype online speaker have a much steeper job of convincing to do since those speakers cannot be heard without actually buying them, and as such, sometimes ratchet up the rhetoric to ridiculous extremes.
What you're observing with the Axioms is basically the flavor-on-the-month. A couple of years ago, you would see one thread after another hyping nOhr and Swan Diva. Now, it's all about the Onix Rockets and Axioms. I have no doubt that to some people, they are a perfect match and a great value. But, my speaker preferences are my own and not necessarily shared by others. What someone regards as a great speaker, I might consider a colossal bore/ripoff. It's just much easier and economical timewise for me to go to my local dealers, do some comparisons, borrow the ones I'm most interested and make my final decisions based on home comparisons.
As RGA mentioned, those money-back guarantees DO NOT include the cost of shipping. Depending on the weight, you could be talking about $80 or more for two-way shipping costs. If you're auditioning more than one set of speakers, those costs can add up in a hurry.
With all that said, online speakers can represent a great value if they deliver what you're looking for. I bought my subwoofer online (the Adire Rava) and it was a great decision for me. But, with a subwoofer, the audible differences are more difficult to discern than with mains, and I was looking for a sealed design. At that time, I couldn't find any options for under $800, so I felt it was worth the gamble (plus, I loaded the dice by using a parametric equalizer with the subwoofer). And that's really what it comes down to. If you feel that the chances of a particular online speaker meeting your needs is pretty good, then the cost/trouble that it entails might be worthwhile.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Incessant hype about online-only speakers is nothing new. People who are fanboys of speakers available at retail just have to tell people they want to convince to go find a local dealer and listen for themselves. Those who want to hype online speaker have a much steeper job of convincing to do since those speakers cannot be heard without actually buying them, and as such, sometimes ratchet up the rhetoric to ridiculous extremes.
What you're observing with the Axioms is basically the flavor-on-the-month. A couple of years ago, you would see one thread after another hyping nOhr and Swan Diva. Now, it's all about the Onix Rockets and Axioms. I have no doubt that to some people, they are a perfect match and a great value. But, my speaker preferences are my own and not necessarily shared by others. What someone regards as a great speaker, I might consider a colossal bore/ripoff. It's just much easier and economical timewise for me to go to my local dealers, do some comparisons, borrow the ones I'm most interested and make my final decisions based on home comparisons.
What you have to remember about all the "hype" is that many of the "hypers" have run the gamut of speaker auditions [not me] and are simply trying to pass on what they found to be the case. Do you have any experience with online speakers that are discussed other than your positive experience with Adaire? When you recommend Adaire is it because you like to hype, or because you think you did very well for price/performance with that company? Besides price/performance people dealing with a number of online only companies state that they never/rarely enjoyed the level of customer service they offer. These companies are growing because they are delivering on their promises. They are delivering goods at a price that b&m stores can't compete with. IMHO they offer the best values people can find in todays marketplace. The return rates are small not because people don't want to spend the price of shipping them back, but because people feel they got what they hoped for and then some in a lot of cases. Once a person can define the kind of sound they like if they do their research they should be able to find an online company to satisfy their tastes. Many of these companies are past the point of being risky, and are just a good way to maximize one's budget. If it's true is it still hype?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinHere
What you have to remember about all the "hype" is that many of the "hypers" have run the gamut of speaker auditions [not me] and are simply trying to pass on what they found to be the case. Do you have any experience with online speakers that are discussed other than your positive experience with Adaire? When you recommend Adaire is it because you like to hype, or because you think you did very well for price/performance with that company? Besides price/performance people dealing with a number of online only companies state that they never/rarely enjoyed the level of customer service they offer. These companies are growing because they are delivering on their promises. They are delivering goods at a price that b&m stores can't compete with. IMHO they offer the best values people can find in todays marketplace. The return rates are small not because people don't want to spend the price of shipping them back, but because people feel they got what they hoped for and then some in a lot of cases. Once a person can define the kind of sound they like if they do their research they should be able to find an online company to satisfy their tastes. Many of these companies are past the point of being risky, and are just a good way to maximize one's budget. If it's true is it still hype?
I'm well aware that a lot of what's posted about these speakers is based on well-informed auditioning. However, my main point is that a lot of the rhetoric that I've seen goes way overboard, and more so than with speakers sold at retail. I have no doubt that these companies CAN deliver goods at a price that b&m stores can't match, but I take issue with the one-size-fits-all tone that goes along with some of these recommendations.
Yes, you get the same mentality with fanboys who preach the gospel of their favorite store-bought speakers as well. But, the difference is that their hype can be easily verified or diffused with a simple visit to the store. Can't do that with an internet brand unless you buy the speaker first or find somebody who owns a pair. And so a lot of the threads that I've seen descend into flaming because the only person who has first hand experience with the speakers is somebody who actually owns them; and a speaker owner is not exactly an unbiased or emotionally unattached source.
The thing about comparing internet brand speakers with ones bought at retail is that the internet brand speakers will almost always have the advantage in such a comparison precisely because they are a lot more trouble to return and audition than speakers sold at retail. When I was doing my final comparisons, I simply walked to my local b&m store and borrowed the speakers that I was interested in. If I had decided to include a pair of internet speakers in the mix, I would've had to buy them first and do the audition knowing that if I decided on the retail speakers I would have to repack and reship the internet brand speakers AND pay for the return shipping. That has a very high potential for creating inherent biases in any kind of comparison.
I don't doubt that people who buy Onix, Axiom, etc. are happy with their purchases. But, when the hype starts getting down to the online brands sounding that much better than all comparable retail brands in their price class, I maintain a certain degree of skepticism because unless the comparisons make some sort of effort at bias control (like doing some kind of blind testing), they're not done on a level playing field.
The thing is that I need to to hear a speaker before I can judge whether it's a speaker that I'd consider or reject. And my preferences may not mesh with what reviewers or speaker owners prefer. It's just not my preference to buy a set of speakers in order to audition it, when I'm already choosing between any number of excellent options that I can listen to in the store or audition at home without an upfront investment.
My own experience with Adire is proof positive that this business model can work. Their customer service was pretty good, even though their shippng department made a mistake and it delayed my shipment by over a week. I have the highest regard for the Rava. It's an excellent value and it was exactly what I was looking for. But, I don't extend my recommendation to how it compares with retail brands, because frankly I have no basis for comparison and to do a valid one would be a helluva lot of trouble (borrowing main speakers is one thing, but borrowing subwoofers and setting up parametric equalization profiles for each one is a big hassle). And in my case, there weren't any comparable options on the market in my price point when I bought my Rava, so my options were a lot more limited than someone in the market for a pair of bookshelf speakers. To me, that made the risk and trouble worthwhile.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Well first you know I don't value the measurements that don't tell you anything about sound...or gee the subjective review would correlate with the measurements...none of the subjective reviews of the De Capo correlate - consensus is generally a great lifelike high end speaker. Can't be said about some of the flatter responses? Measurement therefore are not accurate to what is "liked."
Well, I am taking parts of your post here. I don't generally think that much of purely subjective reviews whether by Stereophile or UHF or TAS Soundstage or anyone else, although one can often get some idea about speakers. The mags broadly agree about speakers. Stereophile does often do a useful set of measurements, especially for speakers, as does AIG, often Soundstage, and The Audio Critic, especially now that they have Don Keele on board.
You demand that a review by one individual should correlate with a set of measurements, except that individual may have peculiar tastes. As well, correlation for you seems to be a simple bipolar love or hate thing, whereas one can have varying degrees of preference for different aspects of a speaker's performance. In fact, Art Dudley apparently did hear the hefty mid-range peak in the De Capo, but didn't much object to it, as I have said before. So I simply don't agree that the measurements did not correlate with listening experience, even Art Dudley's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
You're an odd fellow since you rely SO heavily on graphs then tell people not to rely on them totally.
The FACT of the matter is the ONLY way you can rely on a graph is if you sample about a 100 speakers find the ones you like "subjectively" and then get access to ALL of the graphs.
Another advertising gimmick - it works people buy a lot of irritating dreck in the name of accuracy. At the listening position in your room is the ONLY thing that would count. And that graph would change in every room.
I simply want to know what they are. If that to you is a heavy emphasis, I can only say that is your interpretation. That I want to know the measurements seems a personal affront to you for some reason. As for listening to a lot of speakers, I have listened to very many speakers in my life and I have been reading good reviews for a long time. I have long been fairly familiar with the NRC curves because the Canadian Sound & Vison magazine used them and I have tried to understand what they mean. The late Richard C. Heyser and later Don Keele gave fairly detailed measurements in Audio magazine, and I have tried to understand something about them, too.
As Woochifer points out, most manufacturers don't show the curves and data for the speakers, far from it. So much for "adverising gimmick."
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
A slight lilt in the treble is to me and many people FAR worse than almost any other anomolie. Mid Bass Hump for example is not overly irritating to me...especially if amplified rock is your bag.
So now you DO seem to know something about correlating the measurents with the sound! Will wonders never cease! LOL--make up your mind!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
As for the Audio Note's why do you care? You can e-mail Hi Fi Choice for the measurements perhaps...of the An E/D - all their speakers have a similar sound
I would suggest looking up the measurements of the very original Snell designs but the changes AN has made are fairly large in that the AN's are corner near wall placements where the Snells were not.
You can also ask about the AN E with your good buddoies at Stereophile since it was the speaker they used to test tube amplifiers with - presumably they would want a relatively accurate speaker or good speaker to do that no? url]http://www.stereophile.com/reference/357/index1.html[/url]
And buyers are telling. Despite the looks they're doing pretty well. Despite no reviews of the AN K and the fact that I never heard of them...compared to the De Capo, N801, Studio series, ML and a host of others I have already mentioned on the old forum thread, side by side with some of them...it beat them all...the De Capo was closestdo it's smoother presentation but the soundstage had a character in depth that was always there on a all recording which while I like it - in the end i wanted a more straight shooter. (plus I preferred the treble response of the original version ... rolled off but not as hot.
As for the Audio Note speakers, it is YOU who keep telling me how accurate they are, and you even quote Peter Q about flat 30 degree off axis response--as if Paradigm Reference, PSB, Energy and others don't do that!! Are you just taking his word for it? He perhaps engages in a little smooth sounding puffery himself! But, he may well be a good speaker designer and I'm happy for you that you like your new speakers. Also, he talks about measuring power response, as if this is not done--Harman does it, and I have a number of Canadian Sound & Vision magazines showing total power response graphs--it was something they did regularly until they sopped publishing about 1996. As well, the NRC graphs at Soundstage include a listening window graph which gives an approximation for a listener. You just seem to take Peter's word, and I asked you if this was so. Apparently it is! ;)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFlyer
I'm starting to realize I've got way more learning to do. I think you are absolutely right about online retailers figuring you will not return their product and the fact that some don't even have a listening room has me very skeptical.
Pat D. expressed some concern about my Denon avr 1403 which is a 5.1 ch receiver but at the low end of the spectrum. How will this effect my speaker choices. Most of the retailers I spoke to thought my receiver was more than adequate.
RGA I checked out Hi-Fi Choice and thank you for the suggestion. They don't have many Canadian products listed so I am figuring I'll be paying more just to get it here in this country. As I am somewhat limited in my budget ($2,000-2,500 Canadian) I'd like to maximize my dollar value. I think your suggestion of the Energy C3's may be the right direction. Your comment about metal drivers, is that in response to Axiom?
One point of interest is that Axiom has won several awards for their products.So I'm not sure their product would be considered of poor quality. Are their bogus reviewers ou there? I checked out audioaholics and they reviewed the M22ti favourably (apparently they are unbiased as well).
Lots to research, thanks kindly to all for your time and efforts. GB
Well, it may well be that your receiver is perfectly adequate even with reasonably insensitive speakers. I don't know your listening habits. In any case, it is good methodology to try out speakers in your listening room using your equipment before having to buy them. That way you can find out for sure. But remember, a 3 dB increase in sensitivity for the speakers has the same effect as doubling your amplifier's power, so I would still tend to suggest looking at reasonably sensitive speakers.
On line sellers pretty well have to offer a good return policy. But as someone pointed out, they cut out the middle man and so you save there. I don't know what the shipping cost is, But in any case, Axiom speakers do have a good reputation.
RGA seems to be one of those people who thinks that metal dome tweeters are BAD. This is like an urban myth in audiophile land, probably based on the metaphor of metal being 'hard' so the sound must be 'hard,' which is really the fallacy of equivocation. But as far as I'm concerned, some of the smoothest speakers I've ever heard had metal dome tweeters. It isn't the particular design style that is important (within reason, of course) but the implementation. If a speaker sounds bad, it won't do just to lay the blame on metal dome tweeters.
Audioholics is as unbiased as any, though I do wish they had a better set of measurements. Anyway, they do have a lot of useful information on their site. It's a good site.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Completely nonsensical analogy because the Lemon Aid guide is entirely based on reliability and recall history, nothing to do with performance or value. The Ford Focus is one of the better compact cars I've rented, but since, like most auto reviewers, I don't own one, the recall history and reliability mean nothing to me so long as it stays tight for the one or two days that I have it..
Biggest reason to have a car is to get you from one destination to another...The Ford Focus apparently comes in pretty close to dead last...which mean the design and/or the build of the car is totally incompetant. I know three owners(directly and indirectly) of this car(popular) and all three have had MAJOR problems with it. Quality control for a car should be recognized in the review...if you know what to look for you can find them...but then who owns the review magazine is question 1. Question 2 is what is the competance of the reviewer.
That was not an analogy by the way...that was talking about reviews...don't assume.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Again, we're talking about speakers, so more off-topic nonsense. When you refer to "limitations" what are you talking about? "Most consumers" don't care about the "limitations" that you refer to because the receivers meet their needs and their budgetary restrictions. It has nothing to do with their lack of knowledge on the subject as you assert. They know that better stuff is out there, and they frankly couldn't give enough of a rat's behind to pay an extra $2k+ to step up to home theatre separates. Count me in that same category. Stick to your own opinions and don't try and assume that people out there make the choices that they do because they just don't know better..
Stick to my own opinions is what I've been doing...and not everyone does know better...if they did they would not need to come to a forum to ask question...they'd already know. Silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Why don't you take a guess? It's got about as much worth as anybody else's, unless you got some inside information that you're jealously guarding from everyone. All you're doing is bringing up inneuendo so you can make a point without really making a point.
Well in the case of UHF they are not sent certain products - Arcam is a proven example of a distributor that refuses to send them gear after an accurate negative review of an older Integrated amp...though i'm sure they got raves by the everything gets a rave club. If you're a speaker or any other product maker...as businessman...why would you take the risk of a negative review? Much smarter to send your product to the everything gets a good review people. Some do both because they want the coverage, smaller companies are forced to send to the tougher reviewers because their dealer base is too small and don't have the $$$$ to buy advertising space in the some of the big magazines. Which is not to say the big magazines are going to be dishonest necessarily either. Like i said...I agree with them a whole bunch and disagree with my more "liked" magazines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Where's your proof of this? Listening tests done by Floyd Toole (which have a lot more bias control built into the research design than your sighted/biased listenings) and others have demonstrated that the top criteria for speaker preferences were even frequency response in the midrange, freedom from distortion, and wide dispersion. Those criteria sound to me like they would be part of a speaker design that sounds realistic. Where does it say that exaggerated bass and treble are preferred criteria?
I looked at the measurement of the 100V2 by Stereophile...exagerrated speaker at 6, 10 and 26khz...the latter outside the normal range of hearing the other two most certainly not...was this speaker done in the NRC...we'll never know...what we do know is a fe generalizable claims that some people liked some speakers with graphs that seem to resemble a flatter line more than others in an A/B test that is totally different from the way a normal person would buy/set-up/and listen to music over the next several years with that person's room and that person's ancillary equipment. No validity problems there. :rolleyes:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
You demand that a review by one individual should correlate with a set of measurements, except that individual may have peculiar tastes. As well, correlation for you seems to be a simple bipolar love or hate thing, whereas one can have varying degrees of preference for different aspects of a speaker's performance. In fact, Art Dudley apparently did hear the hefty mid-range peak in the De Capo, but didn't much object to it, as I have said before. So I simply don't agree that the measurements did not correlate with listening experience, even Art Dudley's.
I'm not saying there is absolutely no valididty to measurements because virtually EVERYBODY that lisens to the De capo comments on the midrange and the soundstage depth...naturally to do this there would be a corresponding measurement. Most people note this, would even without measurements presume that there would be a different measurement...after all they sound different there would HAVE to be. And yet if we go by the NRC most people SHOULD NOT like this speaker...which if any of the DBT dimwits would grab a clue indicates that gee whiz what happened in the real valid world is not corresponding to what is happening in the invalid test environment. And if it doesn't what the hell was the point of the test to start with. There is no price.looks brand name bias...they lose on all counts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
I simply want to know what they are. If that to you is a heavy emphasis, I can only say that is your interpretation. That I want to know the measurements seems a personal affront to you for some reason. As for listening to a lot of speakers, I have listened to very many speakers in my life and I have been reading good reviews for a long time. I have long been fairly familiar with the NRC curves because the Canadian Sound & Vison magazine used them and I have tried to understand what they mean. The late Richard C. Heyser and later Don Keele gave fairly detailed measurements in Audio magazine, and I have tried to understand something about them, too.
Yes trying to understand them is great...judging is another. I gave up when the speakers the measurers liked often(not always) sounded like dreck to me. The fact that I say not always further complicates it because speakers like PMC and B&W's Matrix805 are flat leaning measurement follower's orgasmic speakers and they sound good. But...
As for Qvortrup I didn't but the speaker based off a graph nor did i have ANY interest in seeing it...as that would merely induce a bias about the sound. I have quoted him because i don't like screwing up paraphrases where possible.
What he has argued for a long time is to closely match the drivers...his biggest complaint and to which no spekaer using a metal tweeter can or ever will do correctly. Quite simply, not everything is measured and or read the way it suposed to be read. WHich is why the liked measured speaker does not beat out, often, the subjective musical experience.
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" However, my main point is that a lot of the rhetoric that I've seen goes way overboard, and more so than with speakers sold at retail. I have no doubt that these companies CAN deliver goods at a price that b&m stores can't match, but I take issue with the one-size-fits-all tone that goes along with some of these recommendations."
To someone who honed their musical preferences and can mention a brand they heard in a retail store a comparable "sound" can usually be found among the lines that online companies offer. Many people have agonized over going the online only route only to become satisified customers who want to share the joy.
"Yes, you get the same mentality with fanboys who preach the gospel of their favorite store-bought speakers as well. But, the difference is that their hype can be easily verified or diffused with a simple visit to the store. Can't do that with an internet brand unless you buy the speaker first or find somebody who owns a pair. And so a lot of the threads that I've seen descend into flaming because the only person who has first hand experience with the speakers is somebody who actually owns them; and a speaker owner is not exactly an unbiased or emotionally unattached source."
The number of people extolling online companies is growing, not necessarily on AR but on other forums, because these companies simply deliver a better product for the price. I can tell you that I wouldn't push internet-only if I hadn't read what people much more knowledgable than me reported about their experiences and wrote in comparison threads. The reasons that threads descend into flame wars are ignorance, brand loyalty, and a belief that if it sounds to good to be true it usually is.
"The thing about comparing internet brand speakers with ones bought at retail is that the internet brand speakers will almost always have the advantage in such a comparison precisely because they are a lot more trouble to return and audition than speakers sold at retail. When I was doing my final comparisons, I simply walked to my local b&m store and borrowed the speakers that I was interested in. If I had decided to include a pair of internet speakers in the mix, I would've had to buy them first and do the audition knowing that if I decided on the retail speakers I would have to repack and reship the internet brand speakers AND pay for the return shipping. That has a very high potential for creating inherent biases in any kind of comparison."
Trouble schmouble. If some really cares about the sound they have in their home and did all the auditioning many do, repacking, sending something back, and paying to get rid of something that is disappointing isn't that big a deal. Keeping something they don't like is a big deal. It may be a roll of the dice, but there aren't that many disappointed people either because they loved what they got or they had to send them back. Again, the price of shipping is pretty nominal when you consider that it allows you to try a product that many people laud in your own home, with your own gear, and enough time to really make an informed decision.
"I don't doubt that people who buy Onix, Axiom, etc. are happy with their purchases. But, when the hype starts getting down to the online brands sounding that much better than all comparable retail brands in their price class, I maintain a certain degree of skepticism because unless the comparisons make some sort of effort at bias control (like doing some kind of blind testing), they're not done on a level playing field"
It's good to be skeptic, but also remember that many of these speakers have been auditioned in homes against different speakers from retail stores and other online companies. Some people who take their speaker purchases very seriously have gone through the trouble and expense and have reported their findings on many other forums. Comparisons from once non-biased listeners abound and when what they have gets beat they're not shy about saying so and moving on.
"My own experience with Adire is proof positive that this business model can work. Their customer service was pretty good, even though their shippng department made a mistake and it delayed my shipment by over a week. I have the highest regard for the Rava. It's an excellent value and it was exactly what I was looking for. But, I don't extend my recommendation to how it compares with retail brands, because frankly I have no basis for comparison and to do a valid one would be a helluva lot of trouble (borrowing main speakers is one thing, but borrowing subwoofers and setting up parametric equalization profiles for each one is a big hassle). And in my case, there weren't any comparable options on the market in my price point when I bought my Rava, so my options were a lot more limited than someone in the market for a pair of bookshelf speakers. To me, that made the risk and trouble worthwhile."
You make my case. When you say trouble, was it really that hard to click and have a package delivered to your door? Your Adaire experience is more often the norm than a fluke. There are lots of great speakers and lots of different different tastes to be satisfied. I just think it makes sense if you are making the kind of investment that speakers represent that a small risk for a substantial gain has been shown to be more than worth it to many. So worth it in fact that they may seem even like they [of course not me] are going overboard at times for the purpose of sharing what they enjoy. It's not a business model for everyone but the rewards are there to had for those who see the price of shipping a risk worth taking. To someone who is going to basically go into a store and let a salesman decide what is best for them the online-only option is also a viable alternative that can put them ahead on the price/performance scale. These companies earned their reputations on audio sites catering to knowledable people who don't just settle for any box that produces sound, and not just by mass marketing and advertising. These companies are usually the result of individuals with a passion for audio who have dreams and bring them to fruition. The ones that succeed offer something special.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Biggest reason to have a car is to get you from one destination to another...The Ford Focus apparently comes in pretty close to dead last...which mean the design and/or the build of the car is totally incompetant. I know three owners(directly and indirectly) of this car(popular) and all three have had MAJOR problems with it. Quality control for a car should be recognized in the review...if you know what to look for you can find them...but then who owns the review magazine is question 1. Question 2 is what is the competance of the reviewer.
That was not an analogy by the way...that was talking about reviews...don't assume.
Again, irrelevant to the question at hand because you're bringing reliability and recall history into a discussion on produc reviews, which are almost always based on short-term product tests, not statistical surveys of repair history. What audio product review out there makes those considerations? They might make a tacit remark about the build quality, but that says zilch about whether a product will last for the long-term or if their components have design defects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Stick to my own opinions is what I've been doing...and not everyone does know better...if they did they would not need to come to a forum to ask question...they'd already know. Silly.
No sillier than your belief that people who make purchases do so because they just don't know better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Well in the case of UHF they are not sent certain products - Arcam is a proven example of a distributor that refuses to send them gear after an accurate negative review of an older Integrated amp...though i'm sure they got raves by the everything gets a rave club. If you're a speaker or any other product maker...as businessman...why would you take the risk of a negative review? Much smarter to send your product to the everything gets a good review people. Some do both because they want the coverage, smaller companies are forced to send to the tougher reviewers because their dealer base is too small and don't have the $$$$ to buy advertising space in the some of the big magazines. Which is not to say the big magazines are going to be dishonest necessarily either. Like i said...I agree with them a whole bunch and disagree with my more "liked" magazines.
And if I was a speaker manufacturer and saw how grossly incompetently UHF conducted their center speaker comparison, I wouldn't want to send them a product sample either. It's one thing to avoid a tough critic, it's quite another to prefer that competent reviewers test your product. (link plus my comments in a prior thread)
http://www.uhfmag.com/Issue67/Issue67.html
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/c...N.2@.ef9f822/9
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/c....2@.ef9f822/10
You bring up these conspiracies as if exclusion by certain magazines says something substantive about the speakers in question. I don't think it says anything, other than the biases of the magazines in question since they ultimately select which products to include or exclude in their comparisons and reviews. No single source can possibly evaluate everything on the market, so some editorial exclusion is always part of the equation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
I looked at the measurement of the 100V2 by Stereophile...exagerrated speaker at 6, 10 and 26khz...the latter outside the normal range of hearing the other two most certainly not...was this speaker done in the NRC...we'll never know...what we do know is a fe generalizable claims that some people liked some speakers with graphs that seem to resemble a flatter line more than others in an A/B test that is totally different from the way a normal person would buy/set-up/and listen to music over the next several years with that person's room and that person's ancillary equipment. No validity problems there. :rolleyes:
Again, no conspiracies here. I don't always agree with John Atkinson's reviews, but his measuring methodology is consistent, replicable, and valid. Try reading the technical portion of the reviews sometime. He's also a sound engineer by profession who's done reference quality recordings of live performances. The measurements are what they are. You don't have to like the speakers just because of what the measurements tell you. Or with your assertions, hate them just because they measure closer to flat. If there's any disagreeing to do, take issue with the subjective portion of the reviews, since that's really nothing more than opinion anyway.
Your so-called "generalizable claims" are based on a lot more than just the frequency response. You seem to have this obsession with discrediting objective speaker measurements because of how some reviewers interpret them or because they somehow don't confirm your subjective beliefs on what you regard as the best speakers. EVERY speaker has imperfections. NO speaker out there measures completely flat (and even then, you got distortion, time domain response, and other technical criteria that need to be accounted for), so your objections about the sound of "flat" speakers are irrelevant. If you prefer speakers because of certain tonal characteristics, then fine. But, it's a logical disconnect to generalize that conclusion by further asserting that because speakers that you don't like show a different frequency response curve (i.e. one that in your view looks "flatter"), it proves that the measurements are meaningless.
The Studio 100 in question does have frequency peaks in the aforementioned places, plus a slight rise in the midbass. But, most of the MIDRANGE has a very flat frequency response, which is exactly what research by the NRC and others have identified as one of the top, if not the top, design criteria. I don't see why you would object to that finding. Your most persistent objection is with how speaker companies handle the highs, but "etched" highs are not what the NRC research identified as a design criteria. So your attacks on the research itself are misplaced at best.
The listening research that's been done isn't perfect, but it's certain more valid and reliable than trying to evaluate design criteria in a non-controlled environment. Without a controlled environment, you introduce myriad other variables that need to be accounted for, few of which have any relevance for speaker design.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinHere
The number of people extolling online companies is growing, not necessarily on AR but on other forums, because these companies simply deliver a better product for the price. I can tell you that I wouldn't push internet-only if I hadn't read what people much more knowledgable than me reported about their experiences and wrote in comparison threads. The reasons that threads descend into flame wars are ignorance, brand loyalty, and a belief that if it sounds to good to be true it usually is.
Flame wars also occur because the owners of those speakers are so insistent on their speakers' superiority that they dismiss the notion of store-bought speakers altogether. I don't doubt that a lot of internet speakers are competent products worthy of consideration, but if they are the right speaker for me, that's not for other people to decide. And if I don't have easy access to those speakers, it diminishes the comparative value for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinHere
Trouble schmouble. If some really cares about the sound they have in their home and did all the auditioning many do, repacking, sending something back, and paying to get rid of something that is disappointing isn't that big a deal. Keeping something they don't like is a big deal. It may be a roll of the dice, but there aren't that many disappointed people either because they loved what they got or they had to send them back. Again, the price of shipping is pretty nominal when you consider that it allows you to try a product that many people laud in your own home, with your own gear, and enough time to really make an informed decision.
I'll put it to you this way, when I was selecting speakers, I did listenings of about 35 different models, and I've listened to countless others over the years. To get anywhere near that kind of breadth with the various online brands (not to mention comparing internally among their various product lines) it sure as hell would be a lot of trouble if you're talking about auditioning anything more than two or three sets of internet speakers. The shipping charges for JUST an audition for three sets of speakers could run over $200, which is hardly an inconsequential sum. Not to mention the hassle of repacking and reshipping. Maybe it is possible to luck out and just fall in love with the first set of speakers that get shipped to my front door, but my experiences in the various demo rooms and at home indicated that there was plenty of quality out there that I did not know about in my initial research, and discovered as I went about my auditions at various dealer demo rooms, as well as plenty of highly regarded speakers that disappointed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinHere
It's good to be skeptic, but also remember that many of these speakers have been auditioned in homes against different speakers from retail stores and other online companies. Some people who take their speaker purchases very seriously have gone through the trouble and expense and have reported their findings on many other forums. Comparisons from once non-biased listeners abound and when what they have gets beat they're not shy about saying so and moving on.
I'm not questioning the competence and sincerity of a lot of these forum posters. It's nice to have this information available to shortlist the models that I would like to try out. But, as with all reviews, my preferences are my own and don't always correspond with others' opinions. I also question the objectivity of these kinds of home party comparisons given that the owners are typically present. And in the end, my own opinion ultimately wins out when it comes time to make a purchase. For the process I went through to decide upon a main speaker, the online route did not make sense because it was a two-month process of listening, relistening, borrowing, and comparing. Doubtful that any online vendor would have let me keep their speakers that long, and doubtful that I would have continued my search as diligently knowing that I had a "purchased" set of internet speakers already sitting at home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinHere
You make my case. When you say trouble, was it really that hard to click and have a package delivered to your door? Your Adaire experience is more often the norm than a fluke. There are lots of great speakers and lots of different different tastes to be satisfied. I just think it makes sense if you are making the kind of investment that speakers represent that a small risk for a substantial gain has been shown to be more than worth it to many. So worth it in fact that they may seem even like they [of course not me] are going overboard at times for the purpose of sharing what they enjoy. It's not a business model for everyone but the rewards are there to had for those who see the price of shipping a risk worth taking. To someone who is going to basically go into a store and let a salesman decide what is best for them the online-only option is also a viable alternative that can put them ahead on the price/performance scale. These companies earned their reputations on audio sites catering to knowledable people who don't just settle for any box that produces sound, and not just by mass marketing and advertising. These companies are usually the result of individuals with a passion for audio who have dreams and bring them to fruition. The ones that succeed offer something special.
I'm not sure if I made your case because I went with a well regarded subwoofer model, but did not do any kind of hands-on comparison shopping with store-bought subwoofers. Basically, I relied on the good word of people that spoke from experience, and went with the internet option because at that time, the Adire Rava was basically the only sealed acoustic suspension subwoofer available for around $500. (Now, B&W and Atlantic Technology make comparable subwoofers in that price range, so who knows if I would've gone that same route today.)
It was a risk because I already gave someone my $400 (+ shipping) and would have had to shell out $40 for the return shipment if I did not like it (not to mention having to repack that 70 lb. monstrosity). And in actuality, if I had not taken the further step of calibrating the subwoofer with a parametric equalizer (the Rava sounded unbearably boomy out of the box because of my room acoustics), that subwoofer would have gotten a return trip to Adire's Seattle office. As it is, I'm happy with my purchase. But, I also realize that I don't know enough about the rest of the market to make any kind of generalized comparison with other options out there. Then again, I went the online route mostly because my options were otherwise limited for my criteria.
For my main speakers, the b&m stores were very useful not because some salesman dictated my choices to me, but because they gave me so many great options to choose from. I simply felt no need to expand my options by buying online speakers when I was already sifting between several good options that did not require an unfront investment just for listening privileges.
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