• 12-08-2003, 11:59 AM
    3db
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Feaner...you're correct. If a dealer won't allow you a full home audition then they have something to hide...a bad product in most cases.
    .

    So when they don't want to let you try it at home, what am i to think? Is it crap? Maybe.



    But thats not Axiom's policy. They have a money back return policy
  • 12-08-2003, 02:09 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 3db
    But thats not Axiom's policy. They have a money back return policy

    Who is talking about Axiom?
  • 12-08-2003, 02:39 PM
    epg
    Axiom is not to be believed
    Highflyer; a friend of mine bought the Axiom M22 speakers last year, and I heard them 1 time an didn't want to hear them again. I thought that they sounded BRIGHT almost brittle sounding. He had them in use as back speakers in his HT setup. In this context they sounded ok, but I wouldn't use them in any other application. As an aside, I would look at a kit speaker offered by www.partsexpress.com. They are BR-1 and are only 136.00 for a pair. Everything I have read about them seems be positive. You might think about a couple of sets of these instead of the Axioms.

    Recently on a different BB - Madisound.com - I saw a posting stating that this guy had 2 sets of M22's and he was willing to give up 1 set of these speakers to a cross over designer who could help fix the cross-overs in the set of speakers he was going to keep. Like others, he thought that speakers were a little over the top tweeter wise.

    Another Cyclist
  • 12-08-2003, 03:56 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 3db
    But thats not Axiom's policy. They have a money back return policy

    Just a note though...you are still stck with shipping them back, duty charges, shipping charges etc. Depending what you order for them this could run you well in excess of $100.00. I can go to a dealer and take four sets of speakers home several amps and cd players and try out the combo I like for free(well Gas).
  • 12-08-2003, 04:07 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    The Ford Focus won many awards too...read the 2004 Lemon aid used car guide about the car and about the value of awards.

    Completely nonsensical analogy because the Lemon Aid guide is entirely based on reliability and recall history, nothing to do with performance or value. The Ford Focus is one of the better compact cars I've rented, but since, like most auto reviewers, I don't own one, the recall history and reliability mean nothing to me so long as it stays tight for the one or two days that I have it.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    I am not a big fan of budget home theater systems because to me it's like an all-in one printer...soes it all and nothing well. I have a printer because I don't much care about the quality of photos, or speed or scanning. But no serious photographer would print a picture off the Lexmark 1150 and no serious business would want this as a printer, copier etc. But hey it was cheap does it all and saves space...I knew thi going in and it fits the bill and lives up to my expectations of it.

    Another bad analogy because we're not talking about budget home theater systems, we're talking about Axiom speakers. And last I checked, those only do one thing ... reproduce sound from an amp signal. If you want to dispute its merits, do so on that basis rather than bringing all this off-topic noise into the discussion.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Receivers are identical same thing in audio but most consumers don't know of their limitations. Which usually starts with the anaemic power supplies. But again denon for the money is probably decent but it simply isn't going to do everything...You knew that of course because there is the 5803.

    Again, we're talking about speakers, so more off-topic nonsense. When you refer to "limitations" what are you talking about? "Most consumers" don't care about the "limitations" that you refer to because the receivers meet their needs and their budgetary restrictions. It has nothing to do with their lack of knowledge on the subject as you assert. They know that better stuff is out there, and they frankly couldn't give enough of a rat's behind to pay an extra $2k+ to step up to home theatre separates. Count me in that same category. Stick to your own opinions and don't try and assume that people out there make the choices that they do because they just don't know better.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Hi Fi CHoice doesn't get a lot of Canadian or American gear...hmmm. Why not presume to make a few guesses as to why not.

    Why don't you take a guess? It's got about as much worth as anybody else's, unless you got some inside information that you're jealously guarding from everyone. All you're doing is bringing up inneuendo so you can make a point without really making a point.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    And if you read the reviews closer of even some of the well reviewed speakers you may come across the terms about the treble region as a bit "hot, emphasized, not quite refined, slightly excessive, forward etc" all mean that there is a very REAL chance the speaker is going to be an irritating mess.

    That's of course if people share your opinion of what an irritating mess sounds like.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Short term A/B tests will of course favour the exagerated speaker the brighter speaker the bassier sounding(even if exagerrated) than the more realistic speaker.

    Where's your proof of this? Listening tests done by Floyd Toole (which have a lot more bias control built into the research design than your sighted/biased listenings) and others have demonstrated that the top criteria for speaker preferences were even frequency response in the midrange, freedom from distortion, and wide dispersion. Those criteria sound to me like they would be part of a speaker design that sounds realistic. Where does it say that exaggerated bass and treble are preferred criteria?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    And unfortunately MOST speaker makers have built speakers for home theater consumers where a lilt in the treble is desirable. The mega corporations change wht they say is important for measuring so their speakers look impressive on the graph. Just be careful and long listening with all recording including lesser recording is a good idea.

    No, the mega corporations are about maximizing the profit for a set of speakers. Whether or not that results in a good set of speakers for the money is for consumers to sort out. What consumer makes decisions based solely on what they see on a graph?

    If anything, speaker makers do their best to hide whatever a frequency response graph will show (i.e. Bose, the largest speaker manufacturer in the world) since those will highlight the deficiencies on poorly designed speakers, and those compnies that do provide specs generally go more with a simple one-liner (i.e. +-3db 40hz-16khz -- except that they don't mention whether that response was an anecholic measurement or some doctored in-room response) than anything more substantive than that. FEW speaker companies put frequency response graphs into any of their spec sheets or marketing materials. Agreed that listening tests and long careful auditoning is necessary.
  • 12-08-2003, 04:24 PM
    Woochifer
    Hype is always an issue when you're dealing with online-only brands. Compared to other purchases, speakers are by far the most subjective component in most audio systems. And as such, I personally cannot ever just blindly buy a set of speakers based on what I read about it. Reviews and recommendations to me are helpful for shortlisting a set of speakers that I should try out.

    Incessant hype about online-only speakers is nothing new. People who are fanboys of speakers available at retail just have to tell people they want to convince to go find a local dealer and listen for themselves. Those who want to hype online speaker have a much steeper job of convincing to do since those speakers cannot be heard without actually buying them, and as such, sometimes ratchet up the rhetoric to ridiculous extremes.

    What you're observing with the Axioms is basically the flavor-on-the-month. A couple of years ago, you would see one thread after another hyping nOhr and Swan Diva. Now, it's all about the Onix Rockets and Axioms. I have no doubt that to some people, they are a perfect match and a great value. But, my speaker preferences are my own and not necessarily shared by others. What someone regards as a great speaker, I might consider a colossal bore/ripoff. It's just much easier and economical timewise for me to go to my local dealers, do some comparisons, borrow the ones I'm most interested and make my final decisions based on home comparisons.

    As RGA mentioned, those money-back guarantees DO NOT include the cost of shipping. Depending on the weight, you could be talking about $80 or more for two-way shipping costs. If you're auditioning more than one set of speakers, those costs can add up in a hurry.

    With all that said, online speakers can represent a great value if they deliver what you're looking for. I bought my subwoofer online (the Adire Rava) and it was a great decision for me. But, with a subwoofer, the audible differences are more difficult to discern than with mains, and I was looking for a sealed design. At that time, I couldn't find any options for under $800, so I felt it was worth the gamble (plus, I loaded the dice by using a parametric equalizer with the subwoofer). And that's really what it comes down to. If you feel that the chances of a particular online speaker meeting your needs is pretty good, then the cost/trouble that it entails might be worthwhile.
  • 12-08-2003, 05:11 PM
    TinHere
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer

    Incessant hype about online-only speakers is nothing new. People who are fanboys of speakers available at retail just have to tell people they want to convince to go find a local dealer and listen for themselves. Those who want to hype online speaker have a much steeper job of convincing to do since those speakers cannot be heard without actually buying them, and as such, sometimes ratchet up the rhetoric to ridiculous extremes.

    What you're observing with the Axioms is basically the flavor-on-the-month. A couple of years ago, you would see one thread after another hyping nOhr and Swan Diva. Now, it's all about the Onix Rockets and Axioms. I have no doubt that to some people, they are a perfect match and a great value. But, my speaker preferences are my own and not necessarily shared by others. What someone regards as a great speaker, I might consider a colossal bore/ripoff. It's just much easier and economical timewise for me to go to my local dealers, do some comparisons, borrow the ones I'm most interested and make my final decisions based on home comparisons.

    What you have to remember about all the "hype" is that many of the "hypers" have run the gamut of speaker auditions [not me] and are simply trying to pass on what they found to be the case. Do you have any experience with online speakers that are discussed other than your positive experience with Adaire? When you recommend Adaire is it because you like to hype, or because you think you did very well for price/performance with that company? Besides price/performance people dealing with a number of online only companies state that they never/rarely enjoyed the level of customer service they offer. These companies are growing because they are delivering on their promises. They are delivering goods at a price that b&m stores can't compete with. IMHO they offer the best values people can find in todays marketplace. The return rates are small not because people don't want to spend the price of shipping them back, but because people feel they got what they hoped for and then some in a lot of cases. Once a person can define the kind of sound they like if they do their research they should be able to find an online company to satisfy their tastes. Many of these companies are past the point of being risky, and are just a good way to maximize one's budget. If it's true is it still hype?
  • 12-08-2003, 05:44 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TinHere
    What you have to remember about all the "hype" is that many of the "hypers" have run the gamut of speaker auditions [not me] and are simply trying to pass on what they found to be the case. Do you have any experience with online speakers that are discussed other than your positive experience with Adaire? When you recommend Adaire is it because you like to hype, or because you think you did very well for price/performance with that company? Besides price/performance people dealing with a number of online only companies state that they never/rarely enjoyed the level of customer service they offer. These companies are growing because they are delivering on their promises. They are delivering goods at a price that b&m stores can't compete with. IMHO they offer the best values people can find in todays marketplace. The return rates are small not because people don't want to spend the price of shipping them back, but because people feel they got what they hoped for and then some in a lot of cases. Once a person can define the kind of sound they like if they do their research they should be able to find an online company to satisfy their tastes. Many of these companies are past the point of being risky, and are just a good way to maximize one's budget. If it's true is it still hype?

    I'm well aware that a lot of what's posted about these speakers is based on well-informed auditioning. However, my main point is that a lot of the rhetoric that I've seen goes way overboard, and more so than with speakers sold at retail. I have no doubt that these companies CAN deliver goods at a price that b&m stores can't match, but I take issue with the one-size-fits-all tone that goes along with some of these recommendations.

    Yes, you get the same mentality with fanboys who preach the gospel of their favorite store-bought speakers as well. But, the difference is that their hype can be easily verified or diffused with a simple visit to the store. Can't do that with an internet brand unless you buy the speaker first or find somebody who owns a pair. And so a lot of the threads that I've seen descend into flaming because the only person who has first hand experience with the speakers is somebody who actually owns them; and a speaker owner is not exactly an unbiased or emotionally unattached source.

    The thing about comparing internet brand speakers with ones bought at retail is that the internet brand speakers will almost always have the advantage in such a comparison precisely because they are a lot more trouble to return and audition than speakers sold at retail. When I was doing my final comparisons, I simply walked to my local b&m store and borrowed the speakers that I was interested in. If I had decided to include a pair of internet speakers in the mix, I would've had to buy them first and do the audition knowing that if I decided on the retail speakers I would have to repack and reship the internet brand speakers AND pay for the return shipping. That has a very high potential for creating inherent biases in any kind of comparison.

    I don't doubt that people who buy Onix, Axiom, etc. are happy with their purchases. But, when the hype starts getting down to the online brands sounding that much better than all comparable retail brands in their price class, I maintain a certain degree of skepticism because unless the comparisons make some sort of effort at bias control (like doing some kind of blind testing), they're not done on a level playing field.

    The thing is that I need to to hear a speaker before I can judge whether it's a speaker that I'd consider or reject. And my preferences may not mesh with what reviewers or speaker owners prefer. It's just not my preference to buy a set of speakers in order to audition it, when I'm already choosing between any number of excellent options that I can listen to in the store or audition at home without an upfront investment.

    My own experience with Adire is proof positive that this business model can work. Their customer service was pretty good, even though their shippng department made a mistake and it delayed my shipment by over a week. I have the highest regard for the Rava. It's an excellent value and it was exactly what I was looking for. But, I don't extend my recommendation to how it compares with retail brands, because frankly I have no basis for comparison and to do a valid one would be a helluva lot of trouble (borrowing main speakers is one thing, but borrowing subwoofers and setting up parametric equalization profiles for each one is a big hassle). And in my case, there weren't any comparable options on the market in my price point when I bought my Rava, so my options were a lot more limited than someone in the market for a pair of bookshelf speakers. To me, that made the risk and trouble worthwhile.
  • 12-08-2003, 05:49 PM
    Pat D
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Well first you know I don't value the measurements that don't tell you anything about sound...or gee the subjective review would correlate with the measurements...none of the subjective reviews of the De Capo correlate - consensus is generally a great lifelike high end speaker. Can't be said about some of the flatter responses? Measurement therefore are not accurate to what is "liked."

    Well, I am taking parts of your post here. I don't generally think that much of purely subjective reviews whether by Stereophile or UHF or TAS Soundstage or anyone else, although one can often get some idea about speakers. The mags broadly agree about speakers. Stereophile does often do a useful set of measurements, especially for speakers, as does AIG, often Soundstage, and The Audio Critic, especially now that they have Don Keele on board.

    You demand that a review by one individual should correlate with a set of measurements, except that individual may have peculiar tastes. As well, correlation for you seems to be a simple bipolar love or hate thing, whereas one can have varying degrees of preference for different aspects of a speaker's performance. In fact, Art Dudley apparently did hear the hefty mid-range peak in the De Capo, but didn't much object to it, as I have said before. So I simply don't agree that the measurements did not correlate with listening experience, even Art Dudley's.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    You're an odd fellow since you rely SO heavily on graphs then tell people not to rely on them totally.

    The FACT of the matter is the ONLY way you can rely on a graph is if you sample about a 100 speakers find the ones you like "subjectively" and then get access to ALL of the graphs.

    Another advertising gimmick - it works people buy a lot of irritating dreck in the name of accuracy. At the listening position in your room is the ONLY thing that would count. And that graph would change in every room.

    I simply want to know what they are. If that to you is a heavy emphasis, I can only say that is your interpretation. That I want to know the measurements seems a personal affront to you for some reason. As for listening to a lot of speakers, I have listened to very many speakers in my life and I have been reading good reviews for a long time. I have long been fairly familiar with the NRC curves because the Canadian Sound & Vison magazine used them and I have tried to understand what they mean. The late Richard C. Heyser and later Don Keele gave fairly detailed measurements in Audio magazine, and I have tried to understand something about them, too.

    As Woochifer points out, most manufacturers don't show the curves and data for the speakers, far from it. So much for "adverising gimmick."

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    A slight lilt in the treble is to me and many people FAR worse than almost any other anomolie. Mid Bass Hump for example is not overly irritating to me...especially if amplified rock is your bag.

    So now you DO seem to know something about correlating the measurents with the sound! Will wonders never cease! LOL--make up your mind!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    As for the Audio Note's why do you care? You can e-mail Hi Fi Choice for the measurements perhaps...of the An E/D - all their speakers have a similar sound

    I would suggest looking up the measurements of the very original Snell designs but the changes AN has made are fairly large in that the AN's are corner near wall placements where the Snells were not.

    You can also ask about the AN E with your good buddoies at Stereophile since it was the speaker they used to test tube amplifiers with - presumably they would want a relatively accurate speaker or good speaker to do that no? url]http://www.stereophile.com/reference/357/index1.html[/url]

    And buyers are telling. Despite the looks they're doing pretty well. Despite no reviews of the AN K and the fact that I never heard of them...compared to the De Capo, N801, Studio series, ML and a host of others I have already mentioned on the old forum thread, side by side with some of them...it beat them all...the De Capo was closestdo it's smoother presentation but the soundstage had a character in depth that was always there on a all recording which while I like it - in the end i wanted a more straight shooter. (plus I preferred the treble response of the original version ... rolled off but not as hot.

    As for the Audio Note speakers, it is YOU who keep telling me how accurate they are, and you even quote Peter Q about flat 30 degree off axis response--as if Paradigm Reference, PSB, Energy and others don't do that!! Are you just taking his word for it? He perhaps engages in a little smooth sounding puffery himself! But, he may well be a good speaker designer and I'm happy for you that you like your new speakers. Also, he talks about measuring power response, as if this is not done--Harman does it, and I have a number of Canadian Sound & Vision magazines showing total power response graphs--it was something they did regularly until they sopped publishing about 1996. As well, the NRC graphs at Soundstage include a listening window graph which gives an approximation for a listener. You just seem to take Peter's word, and I asked you if this was so. Apparently it is! ;)
  • 12-08-2003, 06:17 PM
    Pat D
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by HighFlyer
    I'm starting to realize I've got way more learning to do. I think you are absolutely right about online retailers figuring you will not return their product and the fact that some don't even have a listening room has me very skeptical.

    Pat D. expressed some concern about my Denon avr 1403 which is a 5.1 ch receiver but at the low end of the spectrum. How will this effect my speaker choices. Most of the retailers I spoke to thought my receiver was more than adequate.

    RGA I checked out Hi-Fi Choice and thank you for the suggestion. They don't have many Canadian products listed so I am figuring I'll be paying more just to get it here in this country. As I am somewhat limited in my budget ($2,000-2,500 Canadian) I'd like to maximize my dollar value. I think your suggestion of the Energy C3's may be the right direction. Your comment about metal drivers, is that in response to Axiom?

    One point of interest is that Axiom has won several awards for their products.So I'm not sure their product would be considered of poor quality. Are their bogus reviewers ou there? I checked out audioaholics and they reviewed the M22ti favourably (apparently they are unbiased as well).

    Lots to research, thanks kindly to all for your time and efforts. GB

    Well, it may well be that your receiver is perfectly adequate even with reasonably insensitive speakers. I don't know your listening habits. In any case, it is good methodology to try out speakers in your listening room using your equipment before having to buy them. That way you can find out for sure. But remember, a 3 dB increase in sensitivity for the speakers has the same effect as doubling your amplifier's power, so I would still tend to suggest looking at reasonably sensitive speakers.

    On line sellers pretty well have to offer a good return policy. But as someone pointed out, they cut out the middle man and so you save there. I don't know what the shipping cost is, But in any case, Axiom speakers do have a good reputation.

    RGA seems to be one of those people who thinks that metal dome tweeters are BAD. This is like an urban myth in audiophile land, probably based on the metaphor of metal being 'hard' so the sound must be 'hard,' which is really the fallacy of equivocation. But as far as I'm concerned, some of the smoothest speakers I've ever heard had metal dome tweeters. It isn't the particular design style that is important (within reason, of course) but the implementation. If a speaker sounds bad, it won't do just to lay the blame on metal dome tweeters.

    Audioholics is as unbiased as any, though I do wish they had a better set of measurements. Anyway, they do have a lot of useful information on their site. It's a good site.
  • 12-08-2003, 06:52 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Completely nonsensical analogy because the Lemon Aid guide is entirely based on reliability and recall history, nothing to do with performance or value. The Ford Focus is one of the better compact cars I've rented, but since, like most auto reviewers, I don't own one, the recall history and reliability mean nothing to me so long as it stays tight for the one or two days that I have it..

    Biggest reason to have a car is to get you from one destination to another...The Ford Focus apparently comes in pretty close to dead last...which mean the design and/or the build of the car is totally incompetant. I know three owners(directly and indirectly) of this car(popular) and all three have had MAJOR problems with it. Quality control for a car should be recognized in the review...if you know what to look for you can find them...but then who owns the review magazine is question 1. Question 2 is what is the competance of the reviewer.

    That was not an analogy by the way...that was talking about reviews...don't assume.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Again, we're talking about speakers, so more off-topic nonsense. When you refer to "limitations" what are you talking about? "Most consumers" don't care about the "limitations" that you refer to because the receivers meet their needs and their budgetary restrictions. It has nothing to do with their lack of knowledge on the subject as you assert. They know that better stuff is out there, and they frankly couldn't give enough of a rat's behind to pay an extra $2k+ to step up to home theatre separates. Count me in that same category. Stick to your own opinions and don't try and assume that people out there make the choices that they do because they just don't know better..

    Stick to my own opinions is what I've been doing...and not everyone does know better...if they did they would not need to come to a forum to ask question...they'd already know. Silly.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Why don't you take a guess? It's got about as much worth as anybody else's, unless you got some inside information that you're jealously guarding from everyone. All you're doing is bringing up inneuendo so you can make a point without really making a point.

    Well in the case of UHF they are not sent certain products - Arcam is a proven example of a distributor that refuses to send them gear after an accurate negative review of an older Integrated amp...though i'm sure they got raves by the everything gets a rave club. If you're a speaker or any other product maker...as businessman...why would you take the risk of a negative review? Much smarter to send your product to the everything gets a good review people. Some do both because they want the coverage, smaller companies are forced to send to the tougher reviewers because their dealer base is too small and don't have the $$$$ to buy advertising space in the some of the big magazines. Which is not to say the big magazines are going to be dishonest necessarily either. Like i said...I agree with them a whole bunch and disagree with my more "liked" magazines.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Where's your proof of this? Listening tests done by Floyd Toole (which have a lot more bias control built into the research design than your sighted/biased listenings) and others have demonstrated that the top criteria for speaker preferences were even frequency response in the midrange, freedom from distortion, and wide dispersion. Those criteria sound to me like they would be part of a speaker design that sounds realistic. Where does it say that exaggerated bass and treble are preferred criteria?

    I looked at the measurement of the 100V2 by Stereophile...exagerrated speaker at 6, 10 and 26khz...the latter outside the normal range of hearing the other two most certainly not...was this speaker done in the NRC...we'll never know...what we do know is a fe generalizable claims that some people liked some speakers with graphs that seem to resemble a flatter line more than others in an A/B test that is totally different from the way a normal person would buy/set-up/and listen to music over the next several years with that person's room and that person's ancillary equipment. No validity problems there. :rolleyes:
  • 12-08-2003, 07:13 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Pat D
    You demand that a review by one individual should correlate with a set of measurements, except that individual may have peculiar tastes. As well, correlation for you seems to be a simple bipolar love or hate thing, whereas one can have varying degrees of preference for different aspects of a speaker's performance. In fact, Art Dudley apparently did hear the hefty mid-range peak in the De Capo, but didn't much object to it, as I have said before. So I simply don't agree that the measurements did not correlate with listening experience, even Art Dudley's.

    I'm not saying there is absolutely no valididty to measurements because virtually EVERYBODY that lisens to the De capo comments on the midrange and the soundstage depth...naturally to do this there would be a corresponding measurement. Most people note this, would even without measurements presume that there would be a different measurement...after all they sound different there would HAVE to be. And yet if we go by the NRC most people SHOULD NOT like this speaker...which if any of the DBT dimwits would grab a clue indicates that gee whiz what happened in the real valid world is not corresponding to what is happening in the invalid test environment. And if it doesn't what the hell was the point of the test to start with. There is no price.looks brand name bias...they lose on all counts.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Pat D
    I simply want to know what they are. If that to you is a heavy emphasis, I can only say that is your interpretation. That I want to know the measurements seems a personal affront to you for some reason. As for listening to a lot of speakers, I have listened to very many speakers in my life and I have been reading good reviews for a long time. I have long been fairly familiar with the NRC curves because the Canadian Sound & Vison magazine used them and I have tried to understand what they mean. The late Richard C. Heyser and later Don Keele gave fairly detailed measurements in Audio magazine, and I have tried to understand something about them, too.

    Yes trying to understand them is great...judging is another. I gave up when the speakers the measurers liked often(not always) sounded like dreck to me. The fact that I say not always further complicates it because speakers like PMC and B&W's Matrix805 are flat leaning measurement follower's orgasmic speakers and they sound good. But...

    As for Qvortrup I didn't but the speaker based off a graph nor did i have ANY interest in seeing it...as that would merely induce a bias about the sound. I have quoted him because i don't like screwing up paraphrases where possible.

    What he has argued for a long time is to closely match the drivers...his biggest complaint and to which no spekaer using a metal tweeter can or ever will do correctly. Quite simply, not everything is measured and or read the way it suposed to be read. WHich is why the liked measured speaker does not beat out, often, the subjective musical experience.
  • 12-08-2003, 08:01 PM
    TinHere
    " However, my main point is that a lot of the rhetoric that I've seen goes way overboard, and more so than with speakers sold at retail. I have no doubt that these companies CAN deliver goods at a price that b&m stores can't match, but I take issue with the one-size-fits-all tone that goes along with some of these recommendations."

    To someone who honed their musical preferences and can mention a brand they heard in a retail store a comparable "sound" can usually be found among the lines that online companies offer. Many people have agonized over going the online only route only to become satisified customers who want to share the joy.

    "Yes, you get the same mentality with fanboys who preach the gospel of their favorite store-bought speakers as well. But, the difference is that their hype can be easily verified or diffused with a simple visit to the store. Can't do that with an internet brand unless you buy the speaker first or find somebody who owns a pair. And so a lot of the threads that I've seen descend into flaming because the only person who has first hand experience with the speakers is somebody who actually owns them; and a speaker owner is not exactly an unbiased or emotionally unattached source."

    The number of people extolling online companies is growing, not necessarily on AR but on other forums, because these companies simply deliver a better product for the price. I can tell you that I wouldn't push internet-only if I hadn't read what people much more knowledgable than me reported about their experiences and wrote in comparison threads. The reasons that threads descend into flame wars are ignorance, brand loyalty, and a belief that if it sounds to good to be true it usually is.

    "The thing about comparing internet brand speakers with ones bought at retail is that the internet brand speakers will almost always have the advantage in such a comparison precisely because they are a lot more trouble to return and audition than speakers sold at retail. When I was doing my final comparisons, I simply walked to my local b&m store and borrowed the speakers that I was interested in. If I had decided to include a pair of internet speakers in the mix, I would've had to buy them first and do the audition knowing that if I decided on the retail speakers I would have to repack and reship the internet brand speakers AND pay for the return shipping. That has a very high potential for creating inherent biases in any kind of comparison."

    Trouble schmouble. If some really cares about the sound they have in their home and did all the auditioning many do, repacking, sending something back, and paying to get rid of something that is disappointing isn't that big a deal. Keeping something they don't like is a big deal. It may be a roll of the dice, but there aren't that many disappointed people either because they loved what they got or they had to send them back. Again, the price of shipping is pretty nominal when you consider that it allows you to try a product that many people laud in your own home, with your own gear, and enough time to really make an informed decision.

    "I don't doubt that people who buy Onix, Axiom, etc. are happy with their purchases. But, when the hype starts getting down to the online brands sounding that much better than all comparable retail brands in their price class, I maintain a certain degree of skepticism because unless the comparisons make some sort of effort at bias control (like doing some kind of blind testing), they're not done on a level playing field"

    It's good to be skeptic, but also remember that many of these speakers have been auditioned in homes against different speakers from retail stores and other online companies. Some people who take their speaker purchases very seriously have gone through the trouble and expense and have reported their findings on many other forums. Comparisons from once non-biased listeners abound and when what they have gets beat they're not shy about saying so and moving on.

    "My own experience with Adire is proof positive that this business model can work. Their customer service was pretty good, even though their shippng department made a mistake and it delayed my shipment by over a week. I have the highest regard for the Rava. It's an excellent value and it was exactly what I was looking for. But, I don't extend my recommendation to how it compares with retail brands, because frankly I have no basis for comparison and to do a valid one would be a helluva lot of trouble (borrowing main speakers is one thing, but borrowing subwoofers and setting up parametric equalization profiles for each one is a big hassle). And in my case, there weren't any comparable options on the market in my price point when I bought my Rava, so my options were a lot more limited than someone in the market for a pair of bookshelf speakers. To me, that made the risk and trouble worthwhile."

    You make my case. When you say trouble, was it really that hard to click and have a package delivered to your door? Your Adaire experience is more often the norm than a fluke. There are lots of great speakers and lots of different different tastes to be satisfied. I just think it makes sense if you are making the kind of investment that speakers represent that a small risk for a substantial gain has been shown to be more than worth it to many. So worth it in fact that they may seem even like they [of course not me] are going overboard at times for the purpose of sharing what they enjoy. It's not a business model for everyone but the rewards are there to had for those who see the price of shipping a risk worth taking. To someone who is going to basically go into a store and let a salesman decide what is best for them the online-only option is also a viable alternative that can put them ahead on the price/performance scale. These companies earned their reputations on audio sites catering to knowledable people who don't just settle for any box that produces sound, and not just by mass marketing and advertising. These companies are usually the result of individuals with a passion for audio who have dreams and bring them to fruition. The ones that succeed offer something special.
  • 12-08-2003, 08:19 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Biggest reason to have a car is to get you from one destination to another...The Ford Focus apparently comes in pretty close to dead last...which mean the design and/or the build of the car is totally incompetant. I know three owners(directly and indirectly) of this car(popular) and all three have had MAJOR problems with it. Quality control for a car should be recognized in the review...if you know what to look for you can find them...but then who owns the review magazine is question 1. Question 2 is what is the competance of the reviewer.

    That was not an analogy by the way...that was talking about reviews...don't assume.

    Again, irrelevant to the question at hand because you're bringing reliability and recall history into a discussion on produc reviews, which are almost always based on short-term product tests, not statistical surveys of repair history. What audio product review out there makes those considerations? They might make a tacit remark about the build quality, but that says zilch about whether a product will last for the long-term or if their components have design defects.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Stick to my own opinions is what I've been doing...and not everyone does know better...if they did they would not need to come to a forum to ask question...they'd already know. Silly.

    No sillier than your belief that people who make purchases do so because they just don't know better.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Well in the case of UHF they are not sent certain products - Arcam is a proven example of a distributor that refuses to send them gear after an accurate negative review of an older Integrated amp...though i'm sure they got raves by the everything gets a rave club. If you're a speaker or any other product maker...as businessman...why would you take the risk of a negative review? Much smarter to send your product to the everything gets a good review people. Some do both because they want the coverage, smaller companies are forced to send to the tougher reviewers because their dealer base is too small and don't have the $$$$ to buy advertising space in the some of the big magazines. Which is not to say the big magazines are going to be dishonest necessarily either. Like i said...I agree with them a whole bunch and disagree with my more "liked" magazines.

    And if I was a speaker manufacturer and saw how grossly incompetently UHF conducted their center speaker comparison, I wouldn't want to send them a product sample either. It's one thing to avoid a tough critic, it's quite another to prefer that competent reviewers test your product. (link plus my comments in a prior thread)

    http://www.uhfmag.com/Issue67/Issue67.html
    http://forums14.consumerreview.com/c...N.2@.ef9f822/9
    http://forums14.consumerreview.com/c....2@.ef9f822/10

    You bring up these conspiracies as if exclusion by certain magazines says something substantive about the speakers in question. I don't think it says anything, other than the biases of the magazines in question since they ultimately select which products to include or exclude in their comparisons and reviews. No single source can possibly evaluate everything on the market, so some editorial exclusion is always part of the equation.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    I looked at the measurement of the 100V2 by Stereophile...exagerrated speaker at 6, 10 and 26khz...the latter outside the normal range of hearing the other two most certainly not...was this speaker done in the NRC...we'll never know...what we do know is a fe generalizable claims that some people liked some speakers with graphs that seem to resemble a flatter line more than others in an A/B test that is totally different from the way a normal person would buy/set-up/and listen to music over the next several years with that person's room and that person's ancillary equipment. No validity problems there. :rolleyes:

    Again, no conspiracies here. I don't always agree with John Atkinson's reviews, but his measuring methodology is consistent, replicable, and valid. Try reading the technical portion of the reviews sometime. He's also a sound engineer by profession who's done reference quality recordings of live performances. The measurements are what they are. You don't have to like the speakers just because of what the measurements tell you. Or with your assertions, hate them just because they measure closer to flat. If there's any disagreeing to do, take issue with the subjective portion of the reviews, since that's really nothing more than opinion anyway.

    Your so-called "generalizable claims" are based on a lot more than just the frequency response. You seem to have this obsession with discrediting objective speaker measurements because of how some reviewers interpret them or because they somehow don't confirm your subjective beliefs on what you regard as the best speakers. EVERY speaker has imperfections. NO speaker out there measures completely flat (and even then, you got distortion, time domain response, and other technical criteria that need to be accounted for), so your objections about the sound of "flat" speakers are irrelevant. If you prefer speakers because of certain tonal characteristics, then fine. But, it's a logical disconnect to generalize that conclusion by further asserting that because speakers that you don't like show a different frequency response curve (i.e. one that in your view looks "flatter"), it proves that the measurements are meaningless.

    The Studio 100 in question does have frequency peaks in the aforementioned places, plus a slight rise in the midbass. But, most of the MIDRANGE has a very flat frequency response, which is exactly what research by the NRC and others have identified as one of the top, if not the top, design criteria. I don't see why you would object to that finding. Your most persistent objection is with how speaker companies handle the highs, but "etched" highs are not what the NRC research identified as a design criteria. So your attacks on the research itself are misplaced at best.

    The listening research that's been done isn't perfect, but it's certain more valid and reliable than trying to evaluate design criteria in a non-controlled environment. Without a controlled environment, you introduce myriad other variables that need to be accounted for, few of which have any relevance for speaker design.
  • 12-08-2003, 09:09 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TinHere
    The number of people extolling online companies is growing, not necessarily on AR but on other forums, because these companies simply deliver a better product for the price. I can tell you that I wouldn't push internet-only if I hadn't read what people much more knowledgable than me reported about their experiences and wrote in comparison threads. The reasons that threads descend into flame wars are ignorance, brand loyalty, and a belief that if it sounds to good to be true it usually is.


    Flame wars also occur because the owners of those speakers are so insistent on their speakers' superiority that they dismiss the notion of store-bought speakers altogether. I don't doubt that a lot of internet speakers are competent products worthy of consideration, but if they are the right speaker for me, that's not for other people to decide. And if I don't have easy access to those speakers, it diminishes the comparative value for me.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TinHere
    Trouble schmouble. If some really cares about the sound they have in their home and did all the auditioning many do, repacking, sending something back, and paying to get rid of something that is disappointing isn't that big a deal. Keeping something they don't like is a big deal. It may be a roll of the dice, but there aren't that many disappointed people either because they loved what they got or they had to send them back. Again, the price of shipping is pretty nominal when you consider that it allows you to try a product that many people laud in your own home, with your own gear, and enough time to really make an informed decision.

    I'll put it to you this way, when I was selecting speakers, I did listenings of about 35 different models, and I've listened to countless others over the years. To get anywhere near that kind of breadth with the various online brands (not to mention comparing internally among their various product lines) it sure as hell would be a lot of trouble if you're talking about auditioning anything more than two or three sets of internet speakers. The shipping charges for JUST an audition for three sets of speakers could run over $200, which is hardly an inconsequential sum. Not to mention the hassle of repacking and reshipping. Maybe it is possible to luck out and just fall in love with the first set of speakers that get shipped to my front door, but my experiences in the various demo rooms and at home indicated that there was plenty of quality out there that I did not know about in my initial research, and discovered as I went about my auditions at various dealer demo rooms, as well as plenty of highly regarded speakers that disappointed.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TinHere
    It's good to be skeptic, but also remember that many of these speakers have been auditioned in homes against different speakers from retail stores and other online companies. Some people who take their speaker purchases very seriously have gone through the trouble and expense and have reported their findings on many other forums. Comparisons from once non-biased listeners abound and when what they have gets beat they're not shy about saying so and moving on.

    I'm not questioning the competence and sincerity of a lot of these forum posters. It's nice to have this information available to shortlist the models that I would like to try out. But, as with all reviews, my preferences are my own and don't always correspond with others' opinions. I also question the objectivity of these kinds of home party comparisons given that the owners are typically present. And in the end, my own opinion ultimately wins out when it comes time to make a purchase. For the process I went through to decide upon a main speaker, the online route did not make sense because it was a two-month process of listening, relistening, borrowing, and comparing. Doubtful that any online vendor would have let me keep their speakers that long, and doubtful that I would have continued my search as diligently knowing that I had a "purchased" set of internet speakers already sitting at home.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TinHere
    You make my case. When you say trouble, was it really that hard to click and have a package delivered to your door? Your Adaire experience is more often the norm than a fluke. There are lots of great speakers and lots of different different tastes to be satisfied. I just think it makes sense if you are making the kind of investment that speakers represent that a small risk for a substantial gain has been shown to be more than worth it to many. So worth it in fact that they may seem even like they [of course not me] are going overboard at times for the purpose of sharing what they enjoy. It's not a business model for everyone but the rewards are there to had for those who see the price of shipping a risk worth taking. To someone who is going to basically go into a store and let a salesman decide what is best for them the online-only option is also a viable alternative that can put them ahead on the price/performance scale. These companies earned their reputations on audio sites catering to knowledable people who don't just settle for any box that produces sound, and not just by mass marketing and advertising. These companies are usually the result of individuals with a passion for audio who have dreams and bring them to fruition. The ones that succeed offer something special.

    I'm not sure if I made your case because I went with a well regarded subwoofer model, but did not do any kind of hands-on comparison shopping with store-bought subwoofers. Basically, I relied on the good word of people that spoke from experience, and went with the internet option because at that time, the Adire Rava was basically the only sealed acoustic suspension subwoofer available for around $500. (Now, B&W and Atlantic Technology make comparable subwoofers in that price range, so who knows if I would've gone that same route today.)

    It was a risk because I already gave someone my $400 (+ shipping) and would have had to shell out $40 for the return shipment if I did not like it (not to mention having to repack that 70 lb. monstrosity). And in actuality, if I had not taken the further step of calibrating the subwoofer with a parametric equalizer (the Rava sounded unbearably boomy out of the box because of my room acoustics), that subwoofer would have gotten a return trip to Adire's Seattle office. As it is, I'm happy with my purchase. But, I also realize that I don't know enough about the rest of the market to make any kind of generalized comparison with other options out there. Then again, I went the online route mostly because my options were otherwise limited for my criteria.

    For my main speakers, the b&m stores were very useful not because some salesman dictated my choices to me, but because they gave me so many great options to choose from. I simply felt no need to expand my options by buying online speakers when I was already sifting between several good options that did not require an unfront investment just for listening privileges.
  • 12-08-2003, 11:40 PM
    TinHere
    An online purchase isn't for everyone, and the fact that it worked for you and me doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. I understand your point that buying a subwoofer given the market and your purchasing parameters at the time was done because of the few options you had, and with bass you don't have to worry about a sonic signiture. I will also grant you that for someone who is going to listen to 35 speakers and has a real understanding of what they are hearing and what they like [this seperates you from many that my point addresses], and has the same concerns as you that the issue is a moot point as this is plainly not a way you wish to purchase speakers. However, for most of the buying public after reading comparisons of a number of speakers and making the determination that an online company offers the kind of sound they are looking for I still maintain that they can buy and try, and will more than likely get a set of speakers that exceeds the price/performance they will get at a b&m store. I'm certainly not arguing this is a buying method for you or for everyone. Most that take this route have been satisfied, and many have gotten speakers that exceeded their expectations. Bottom line is we both have speakers we like and can recommend to people who we think might like the same thing. The difference is I think almost everyone will like what I like, and you really know what you are listening to.

    Can you tell me how you seperate the thread with the quotes? PM would be fine. TIA.
  • 12-09-2003, 09:31 AM
    Pat D
    Quotey thingies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TinHere
    Can you tell me how you seperate the thread with the quotes? PM would be fine. TIA.

    Well now, this is the Idiot's Guide, something even I can understand. :p You see the little quotey thingies at the beginning and the end. You could memorize the format--or, if you're dementia is too far advanced, as mine is--you can block and copy and paste. You copy and paste one of the 'begin' quotey thingies at the beginning of the section you want to quote, and you copy and paste one of the 'end' quotey thingies at the end of the passage you want to quote. This can be done multiple times as desired, and you can type in your comments in between.

    Maybe Woochie has something better. But when I saw that he could do it, I knew there must be a way, so I figured out one.
  • 12-09-2003, 11:39 AM
    46minaudio
    Just some thoughts,IMO if you can afford the shipping check the Axioms out.They measure well...Of course there are other Internet brands as well,and they do look good and are buillt with very good parts.Thats where the problem is.By the time you pay shipping for 3 or 4 internet brands all savings are out the window...As far as them a better buy than B&M.That would be up to the person doing the listening.If I were doing this again I would have put Onix and ACI in the long list of speakers I tried..Thats just me though.You can also ask in different forums what B&M speakers sound like the Axioms.That may help you..IMO there are cheerleaders for both B&M brands as well as Internet only brands..The internet only cheerleaders do seem more vocal..Most here remember Alex for norh.As woochifer said it all about preference..Take daigoro for example he was unimpressed with a speaker RGA touted as the best ever...Hope this helps...
  • 12-09-2003, 11:42 AM
    TinHere
    Quote:

    You copy and paste one of the 'begin' quotey thingies at the beginning of the section you want to quote, and you copy and paste one of the 'end' quotey thingies at the end of the passage you want to quote.
    Thanks Pat D. After Norm's post and Chris's response I had a revelation and found the answer in the FAQ. I just hope I can remember next time I want to use it. :D
  • 12-09-2003, 12:08 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TinHere
    An online purchase isn't for everyone, and the fact that it worked for you and me doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. I understand your point that buying a subwoofer given the market and your purchasing parameters at the time was done because of the few options you had, and with bass you don't have to worry about a sonic signiture. I will also grant you that for someone who is going to listen to 35 speakers and has a real understanding of what they are hearing and what they like [this seperates you from many that my point addresses], and has the same concerns as you that the issue is a moot point as this is plainly not a way you wish to purchase speakers. However, for most of the buying public after reading comparisons of a number of speakers and making the determination that an online company offers the kind of sound they are looking for I still maintain that they can buy and try, and will more than likely get a set of speakers that exceeds the price/performance they will get at a b&m store. I'm certainly not arguing this is a buying method for you or for everyone. Most that take this route have been satisfied, and many have gotten speakers that exceeded their expectations. Bottom line is we both have speakers we like and can recommend to people who we think might like the same thing. The difference is I think almost everyone will like what I like, and you really know what you are listening to.

    Can you tell me how you seperate the thread with the quotes? PM would be fine. TIA.

    Agreed. For my limited universe on the subwoofer purchase, the online route was a very viable and ultimately satisfying option for me. I just didn't feel an urge to go the online route with my main speakers because I was already very happy with my choices through the local b&m stores (plus, one of the stores was in my neighborhood and I try to support local independents whenever I can).

    as far as framing quotes go, all you have to do is look for that bracketed "[ ]" tag that says something like "QUOTE=Woochifer" and paste in onto the beginning of whatever section you want to block off. At the end of the section you want to frame off, you just use a bracketed "[ ]" tag with "/QUOTE" inside. And repeat this for whatever quoted section you want to frame off. The instructions on how to do this and other stuff like insert graphics is on this link...

    http://forums.audioreview.com/misc.php?do=bbcode
  • 12-09-2003, 12:19 PM
    HighFlyer
    Thanks all.
    Thank you all for your excellent responses.

    I have learned a lot, and I agree that I will need to demo these speakers before I purchase them.
    In the meantime I have been auditioning many different speakers and have started to narrow down by preferences.

    Axiom has advised me as to where I can demo some speakers locally so I will hopefully get the opportunity to do that soon.

    Thanks again for all your help!
  • 12-09-2003, 05:09 PM
    psonic
    i am in the market for a under $500 speaker, and the m22ti was something i was considering per the glowing online reviews and hype but i think i will remove them from my list now.

    below is the 2 most recent user reviews on this for the highly acclaimed axiom m3ti, the speaker louded by sites such as soundstage:

    Product Model Year:
    2003

    Summary:
    I picked these up to run them as a zone 2 set off my Yamaha RXV 1400 in the living room upstairs. A friend of mine works at Audioshop and got me a good deal on a set. They do the job quite nicely, and definitely need some break in time to open up. However, I have a 4 year old set of Paradigm Titans in my bedroom that can be bought new for much cheaper that simply outclass these speakers in every area. The Paradigm Mini-Monitors,(which are very close in price) I have as rears in my HT setup, blow these out of the water. I can't say that these Axiom's are bad. They are actually a very accurate, responsive speaker at low volumes, and only lose a bit of bass and mid-range at higher volumes. They look beautiful, and don't feel cheap at all. I listen to Blues, Jazz, and Classical music mostly, and that seems to be where these fall apart, particularly at the higher frequencies. Imaging is above average for a bookshelf, but the high end frequencies really suffer. I don't have a sub in the living room, since it's mostly my wife's and she wouldn't let me, but there's enough bass to please most people.
    All in all, these speakers are good, and I would highly recommend anyone sampling bookshelf speakers, to give these a listen. But I was a little disappointed at the value these things give you compared to my older Paradigm Titans and new Mini Monitors. Not sure if Axiom is coming up short, or if Paradigm is over-achieving. If they weren't so pretty and my friend's paycheque wasn't affected I'd probably return them.

    Strengths:
    good frequency responce, tight accurate bass, decent imaging, beautiful design

    Weaknesses:
    get sloppy at higher volumes, not great for demanding musical sources (classical, opera, jazz) maybe slightly overpriced compared to competitors (ie: Paradigm

    Product Model Year:
    2003

    Summary:
    I listened for a month. The speaker does most things well. The bass is rich for a small speaker. The treble is smooth. Percussion is punchy but not aggressive. Its easy to drive. Unfortunately, the speaker continually disappointed when I listened to singing. Male voices in particular were tilted towards the nasal, exhibiting a colder tone I have heard on familiar albums. I compared the Axiom to the Spender 3/5 (a more expensive speaker admittedly) and the Sound Dynamics 300-ti. Both speakers provided the warmth I was missing in vocal offerings with the Axiom. I tried the Axiom with a CJ amp then a VTL amp and finally a Counterpoint amp. Nothing improved the voice problem. Voices were simply unpleasant. I finally returned the speakers for a refund. If you listen to much singing (jazz and/or classical) this speaker may not be your best choice despite its other strengths and bargain price.

    just thought i'd share this with you guys considering axiom as your next speaker; they did not fare well here directly against other speakers; i am going to go listen to the b&w dm602 locally. this store carries paradigm so i will give the similarly priced models a listen also, though i really like what i've read of the 602. anyone know if the v3 is worth the extra $$ over the s2 used?
  • 12-09-2003, 05:44 PM
    HighFlyer
    What is the rule of thumb for used?
    Thanks for the review.

    What is the general rule of thumb for used prices vs. original prices for used speakers?
    Anything to look out for when checking them out? Thanks
  • 12-09-2003, 07:09 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Again, irrelevant to the question at hand because you're bringing reliability and recall history into a discussion on produc reviews, which are almost always based on short-term product tests, not statistical surveys of repair history. What audio product review out there makes those considerations? They might make a tacit remark about the build quality, but that says zilch about whether a product will last for the long-term or if their components have design defects.

    No are you clueless. Most speakers and audio equipment even CHEAP audio equipment especially speakers will last you a decade. Build quality is not a MAJOR aspect of buying a set of speakers as it is with a car. Reliability IN A CAR is, for most sane people, one of the major factos in the buying decision. And the Lemon Aid has a new car guide as well. I have not seen it but part of any car review that is basically another rehash of an older car would be a big fat warning that gee the last three years of this car has shown it it to ba a disaster of modern car building so whuile we like the seats and the power windows expect that in all likelyhood neither will make it past the first year. There is no fault with making a predictive value based of a companies ATROCIOUS track record of building Bad cars, cars that catch fire, cars that roll over, and cars that explode, over the last 40 years. If I can find the New car guide I'll find their NEW review of the car.


    "No sillier than your belief that people who make purchases do so because they just don't know better."

    Some do some don't...you assum that all people know better? If they do why come here and ask for advice...????D''uhh. Obviously they don't know everything...and this place is an advice forum not an end-all I'm right forum. My responses are overly opinionated I grant, but it is just IMO.

    "And if I was a speaker manufacturer and saw how grossly incompetently UHF conducted their center speaker comparison, I wouldn't want to send them a product sample either. It's one thing to avoid a tough critic, it's quite another to prefer that competent reviewers test your product. (link plus my comments in a prior thread)"

    And no one is perfect you? They had numerous write-ins in the latest issue(they are speeding up) about their mishandled center speaker search...and they replied and admitted their faults, with an explanation as to what it was that they were trying to do. At least they are unafraid to to get involved and take the heat. Once again they were adding a speaker to an already 2 channel system. There is not a lot one can do in a tight space when there is no center speaker available for what you own. A lot of older subscribers are in that position and a lot of peopleare not prepared to give up perfectly good speakers. Their mistake is suggesting that they have a Home theater reference system - which it's most certainly not.

    "Again, no conspiracies here. I don't always agree with John Atkinson's reviews, but his measuring methodology is consistent, replicable, and valid. Try reading the technical portion of the reviews sometime. He's also a sound engineer by profession who's done reference quality recordings of live performances. The measurements are what they are. You don't have to like the speakers just because of what the measurements tell you. Or with your assertions, hate them just because they measure closer to flat. If there's any disagreeing to do, take issue with the subjective portion of the reviews, since that's really nothing more than opinion anyway."

    I don't dispute the measurement itself...like stats...people can opine about them twist them and hide aspects etc. Stats are stats...can't argue with the stat or the measurement...you can argue how valid they are. I also don't dislike speakers that measure closer to flat. Being close in horseshoes is fine...i'm going to pay MUCH closer attention to measurements because I am seeing a correlation in speakers I dislike a spike anywhere above 10khz is generrally annoying...still have a lot more to go. The new 100V3 looks like it doesn't do that...a good sign.

    "The Studio 100 in question does have frequency peaks in the aforementioned places, plus a slight rise in the midbass. But, most of the MIDRANGE has a very flat frequency response, which is exactly what research by the NRC and others have identified as one of the top, if not the top, design criteria. I don't see why you would object to that finding. Your most persistent objection is with how speaker companies handle the highs, but "etched" highs are not what the NRC research identified as a design criteria. So your attacks on the research itself are misplaced at best."

    But not everyone selected the speaker did they...they have an idea of what they're testing actually means not a fact. They have no idea if people reacted positively to the flatness or a given speaker's frequency...not enough people were tested nor was it a typical listening requirement over long term musical listening. Lots of speakers i like over an hour and despise after that hour...and their test we'll never know will we? And it may be that I'm in the Minority camp of those that didn't choose what the majority chose. And let's assume I'm in that minority for the sake of argument. If I just paid attention to the test and to measurements going "with the odds" then I would have bought a speaker that isn't right for me. Sorry but if I'm dropping a few grand on speakers I'm not "going with the odds" I'm going to listen. And I'll be quite content if "oh well" I'm not in the larger statistic of a small poll.

    "The listening research that's been done isn't perfect, but it's certain more valid and reliable than trying to evaluate design criteria in a non-controlled environment. Without a controlled environment, you introduce myriad other variables that need to be accounted for, few of which have any relevance for speaker design."

    Okay...then the only magazine worth getting is HiFi Choice...because it's the ONLY magazine that comes remotely close to a controlled test...it's not perfect either, but they do measurements and blind and a panel and you get different opinions. UHF does all of this too but not blind so it's next closest and What Hi-fi compares directly against the majority of name competitors also in a panel.

    These are not tests...nor do they need to be. They are subjective listening Sessions and evaluation based on those...people test cars too, but you're willing to accept their review of initial quality and care zero for Lemon-aid's objective results. On a car the latter is all I care about especially for a non performance car.

    With sound YOU have to listen because most people won't have a clue about the measurements nor care.
  • 12-09-2003, 07:17 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TinHere
    Bottom line is we both have speakers we like and can recommend to people who we think might like the same thing. The difference is I think almost everyone will like what I like, and you really know what you are listening to.

    Can you tell me how you seperate the thread with the quotes? PM would be fine. TIA.

    TinHere. Perhaps something that would help people is that you compare the speaker to something the person can listen to. Paul Lam I believe compared the Axiom to a smoother version of the Paradigms for significantly less money. Thus is you're looking at Paradigm and you hear this type of comment from several people and if you like the Paradigm sound then you, as a buyer, are more willing to take the chance and order the speakers.

    But too often the only thing said about an Axiom or a nOhr is "This speaker blows everything else away by a mile and is way better than any speaker at ten times the price". This is an extreme example but it's the kind of thing I have read on nOhr threads. Blowing it away doesn't tell me much.

    I like my speakers a great deal but I can't say it "blows" away the N805. I like it better, but the N805 has strong merrits.